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Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






GW has a FAQ out. I've found the following one to be at least a little questionable.

Q: If a unit is affected by an ability that adds to or subtracts from a characteristic and then by an ability that changes a characteristic to a specific value (Example, Akhelian King who has cast Flaming Weapon in the hero phase and then uses the Wave Rider Ability in the following Charge Phase), do both effects apply?
A: No, they don't. If the effect of a rule changes a characteristic to a specific value, it overrides any earlier modifiers.

I am torn on the wording of "overrides any earlier modifiers" in the following case;

Stormdrake Guard with lances. This uit's Drakerider's Lances have a Rend characteristic of -2 instead of -1 and a damage characteristic of 2 instead of 1 if this unit made a charge move in the same turn.

Stormdrake Guard with lances that have charged, and are in the Bounty Hunter's Batallion, targeting a unit of Galletian Veterans. BH Headhunters ability reads: If the target of an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in this batallion is a Galletian Veterans unit, add 1 to the Damage characteristic for that attack.

In this case, I personally don't believe that the wording of "overrides any earlier modifiers" for setting a characteristic to a specific modifer applies here.

So, you can't Flaming Weapon then use a damage modifier on the Charge rule together, but you can use a damage modifier on the Charge rule with Bounty Hunters, since the BH one is not an Earlier Modifier.

What do others think? Am I just out to lunch here?

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Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






I've seen this interpretation but I think people are reading too deeply into it.

it doesn't say "at the beginning of the combat phase, if this unit made a charge move earlier in the turn, set the Damage Characteristic to 2" - there is no timing on it.

It seems like any interpretation that would allow you to get the Bounty Hunters +1 would also implicitly mean that you do not, ie
1) You have charged, so the characteristic is set to 2 at the moment you "check".
2) You target a Galletian Veteran model with this Bounty Hunter unit, gaining +1 Damage again.
3) You check the damage to determine total how much you actually deal, and since you made a charge move earlier in the turn, it's set to Damage 2, overriding the +1 from Bounty Hunters.

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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I believe it would be 3, as the FAQ specifically applies to modifiers made before the damage characteristic was set. It gets set to 2 as soon as they make a charge, whereas bounty hunters doesn't kick in until the attack as a target.

But the wording is ambiguous, and generally speaking a good rule of thumb is to go with the weaker interpretation. So while I think the technical result is 3 I would still play it as 2 until we have further clarification. Particularly because Stormdrake Guard are rather oppressive already.

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I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Well...basically it would mean dragons just count as sword...

...which is what would be better likely anyway. 6 dam2 -1 vs 3 dam3 -2. And always regardless of whether you charged or not.

Of course in about 6 months likely to change so if arms glued not really worth ripping up

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/05 12:12:13


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Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






Don't get too hung up about the specific unit used in the example. It's just that, an example. Could have used any other unit that gets better damage when it charges.

And my understanding is that there is timing to these steps. Damage characteristic is Set to 2 in the Charge phase, then it is modified with +1 when the weapon is chosen to hit a GV unit.

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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Ah, I see. Then yeah, I do feel the current RAW supports the damage bonus applying more than not. It also feels like the natural, intuitive solution.

The technical argument could be made that 'set to 2 if this unit charged' is a constant, ongoing effect since it doesn't say 'set to 2 WHEN this unit charges' but that'd be less likely IMO.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






RAW and RAI is a fickle beast, which is what made me iffy on this.

What is the meaningful difference?

The timing is different, sure, but what is the meaningful difference between an Akhelian King taking Arcane Tome/something to make them a wizard, and taking the double situational occurance of Successfully casting Flaming Weapon, and then Charging and using Waverider

when compared to

The double situational occurance of a unit in Bounty Hunters with Lances charging in and then targeting a unit of GVs in melee, thus triggering Headhunters.

Why should one be verboten while the other is fine? Besides the order of operations listed in the FAQ, that allow Charging Lancer BH units.

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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I certainly agree with you--I'm just estimating how the argument could be made from the other side, even though it is not one I support. It is also a matter where I have previously seen GW rule in a manner I personally found less logical, so I am far more unsure in regards to RAI.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/05 22:51:58


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






They've re-FAQed it to have the exact opposite answer. Now the modifiers all happen after the damage is set.

It's better this way. Easier to grok.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Yeah, it is easier and more intuitive that way.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






Saw that as well yesterday. I'm glad for the change, it gets rid of this hazy middle ground they had with their use of the word "earlier modifiers."

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