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If it comes it will be interesting what happens to the community.
The main danger I think is if they do something like opt for 10mm scale (rather than 8mm) which will really screw over the pretty sizeable cottage industry that has grown up supporting the game, as well as those of us who have sizeable collections.
So, I hope they are at least mindful of that (but who knows?)
How is Valrak´s track record on rumours? Reliable or not?
Literally a coin toss. Sometimes people send him legit rumours, sometimes a whole stream chatting about something that never happens. Basically Faeit with a youtube channel.
Epic Heresy is quite a safe future GW prediction to make right now, from a purely business POV there are so many benefits for them:
The 3D CAD designs being done from scratch for the new range of 28mm HH units can be designed for both scales at the same time
Just like AT and the original Space Marine, GW can sell the same models to both sides which halves design & production costs
People with existing Titanicus or Aeronautica collections can jump in with their existing models
GW know Titanicus outsold expectations so it's very likely that the demand is there
Partly it’s just things people are saying anyway that he just uses his platform to talk about.
I don’t know how much of an inside he has on anything, or is just quick to get any mention or rumour and turn it into a video, which is why it’s kind of 50/50
Pacific wrote: If it comes it will be interesting what happens to the community.
The main danger I think is if they do something like opt for 10mm scale (rather than 8mm) which will really screw over the pretty sizeable cottage industry that has grown up supporting the game, as well as those of us who have sizeable collections.
So, I hope they are at least mindful of that (but who knows?)
Why would they adopt a specific scale for AT or AI and then ignore it completely? I think we can safely put that idea behind us.
How is Valrak´s track record on rumours? Reliable or not?
Literally a coin toss. Sometimes people send him legit rumours, sometimes a whole stream chatting about something that never happens. Basically Faeit with a youtube channel.
Would say he is maginal more reliable than Faeit. And what surprise, an Epic Rumor pops up on Faeit 212:
via a great source here on Faeit 212
Epic is coming. The game entered the playtesting phase.
Game is set in the Horus Heresy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/13 13:19:10
Arbitrator wrote: I'm not buying it. 3D printers probably can't keep up with mimicking GW's 28mm+ kits for a long time, but they could replicate 6-15mm without any real issue.
ekwatts wrote: I agree that epic always felt like an ideal scale for representing 40k, which might seem weird, but seeing those waves of infantry and tanks... It's just great.
I can't wait, to be perfectly honest. Seeing GW pumping out plastic Epic-scale miniatures again will bring a huge grin to my face. People can bang on about the existing versions of Epic being kept alive online, and I've played them, but my experience with the recent Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica miniatures has convinced me that I just want GW to jump back in feet-first.
Those 3D printed armies are absolutely wonderful, but they'll only ever be stopgaps. I want the experience of clipping out Space Marine #87 from a sprue again, pushing him into his epic base and breaking him apart at the ankles.
Ahh, childhood.
I wish this attitude was less prevalent but sadly it's why GW will always dominate the market. People just want Citadel and Games Workshop slapped on the box or they'll never touch it.
Superbly ignorant response, there. Well done. Almost impressive, but also predictable.
I've played Epic since I started playing wargames. I had the original Space Marine and AT box sets. Finding other players can, understandably, sometimes be tough, and I have a modern Space Marine army made up of either 1980s/1990s originals from GW or proxies from Vanguard Miniatures, but I don't have a problem with playing long out of production games nor other companies' games (Battletech, Warmachine, Infinity, etc). But I also admit that the games I do tend to play the most are GW games. Mordheim is probably my number one.
What I don't really understand about your response is that we're very specifically talking about a GW game that GW may be rereleasing... It's a GW game. It's a GW game I enjoyed when it was supported, I found ways to continue enjoying it when they didn't, and I'm excited at the prospect of new miniatures and rules for this GW game system being released by GW. I don't really understand what you're complaining about. It's a GW game. It didn't stop being a GW game when they stopped supporting it. It just meant we all had to put more effort into sourcing miniatures or updating rulesets.
Your post just doesn't really make any sense in that respect.
All I got from that was "GWGWGWGWGWGWGWGWGWGWGW"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/13 13:35:55
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
GWs business model is a dying breed, and they know it that is why they are investing so heavy into expanding the IP outside of just the miniatures game.
As with any new technology creative destruction will happen. remember when VCRs were something rich people had because they cost hundreds of dollars as new tech. now, they are almost not used and if you need one, they cost almost nothing. other more advanced forms of digital media have replaced them.
Even in its current state the potential for 3d printing's ability for design expression and cost savings is so extreme that eventually it will replace the markets core source of miniatures.
The doom and gloom and proselytizing around 3d printing never ceases to amaze me. There is no evidence for GWs business model dying. Miniature and tabletop sales have *increased* despite the improving quality and accessibility of 3d printers and 3d printing services. 3D printing will have a place in the industry, but its not going to kill GWs core business unless some form of singularity event occurs with a truly revolutionary breakthrough that eliminates or mitigates many of the limitations and concern factors of the technology, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. You are more likely to see GW switch from plastic injection molding to 3d print on demand production than you are to see home 3d printers put GW out of business.
How is Valrak´s track record on rumours? Reliable or not?
Depends on if he's reposting rumors from known reliable sources. Generally speaking, if its an unsourced rumor or something that hes presenting as a scoop/something that was sent to him directly, then he's not reliable at all. If he's discussing a rumor posted by certain known community members on reddit/certain forums, etc. then "he" is reliable, but only because hes presenting info from another source.
In this case, its a seemingly unsourced rumor = load of bs.
tneva82 wrote: Except of course it's not as simple as click button. AT warlord cad took about as much time to get in 6mm as it would have been from scratch.
Yep, its not the simply "set scale conversion factor to 25% and hit go" that people seem to think it is. GWs sculptors are on record saying that they have to do extensive resculpting when converting scales, to the point that they are almost redoing the whole model from scratch. 3D printing is a bit more forgiving in this sense, as sculptors tend to over-exaggerate details as a result of print resolutions being somewhat limited until relatively recently (although even the latest 8k printers struggle to reproduce certain details) and any detail below the threshold of the printers ability to reproduce simply doesn't get printed or gets lost/obscured by surrounding detail and surfaces, etc. without generally harming the overall models geometry, and if it comes out bad then you only wasted a few dollars of resin printing it instead of tens of thousands of dollars of mold production. Making injection molds is a bit different as you have to mind both the precision of the tool pathing as well as the size of the cutting tool itself (which puts a hard finite limit on how fine details can be made). You also have to take into account temperature and pressure limitations, flow restrictions, tolerances, thermal expansion and contraction, minimum thicknesses, pull directions, etc. All of that is stuff that essentially needs to be baked into the sculpt from the word go, and its not something that will necessarily scale well when you're taking models and and reducing them to 25% of their original size - a lot of the detail and engineering that goes into the sculpt for the full scale mini gets thrown out the window entirely when you rescale it.
I would be pretty surprised at GW doing Epic right now, or even in the next few years. But that is only because I've never been a fan of the 10mm scale for minis. I can understand AT and AI as being popular because that's essentially planes and mechs. Adding whole reams of infantry for that? Nah.
I can see them adding tanks and other vehicles into the game, but I can't see them going for full-on infantry. It doesn't fit with their business model/objective of producing what are essentially high quality plastic sculptures - while the quality of epic scale minis from other manufacturers has improved dramatically over the past 20 years, there are some hard tech limits and challenges that will keep GW from being able to make the same sorts of quality improvements that they've managed on their "28mm" miniatures to 6/8mm infantry miniatures over their competitors. I don't think they can reasonably produce "display quality" infantry in such a small scale, but they can definitely manage tanks.
If it comes it will be interesting what happens to the community.
The main danger I think is if they do something like opt for 10mm scale (rather than 8mm) which will really screw over the pretty sizeable cottage industry that has grown up supporting the game, as well as those of us who have sizeable collections.
So, I hope they are at least mindful of that (but who knows?)
Why would they support a community that hasn't purchased their products and a cottage industry that is only really serving to free-ride on GWs IP? Its more likely they would do something to purposefully pull the rug out from the existing community there then do something that meshes well with it.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
As ever in defence of Faeit and Valrak? Both are rumour aggregators, not rumour mongers.
The advantage with Valrak is he’ll normally be quite open about “I want it to be true, but I can’t say for certain it is”. The exception being the source he calls “Omegon”, who has been on the money more often than not, and even when not, it’s not been an outright porky pie.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Pacific wrote: If it comes it will be interesting what happens to the community.
The main danger I think is if they do something like opt for 10mm scale (rather than 8mm) which will really screw over the pretty sizeable cottage industry that has grown up supporting the game, as well as those of us who have sizeable collections.
So, I hope they are at least mindful of that (but who knows?)
I would say a bigger risk is naff rules. You end up with a line up and fight game rather than the current far more free wheeling affair with very different look and feel between each army (and sub army).
I can see them adding tanks and other vehicles into the game, but I can't see them going for full-on infantry. It doesn't fit with their business model/objective of producing what are essentially high quality plastic sculptures - while the quality of epic scale minis from other manufacturers has improved dramatically over the past 20 years, there are some hard tech limits and challenges that will keep GW from being able to make the same sorts of quality improvements that they've managed on their "28mm" miniatures to 6/8mm infantry miniatures over their competitors. I don't think they can reasonably produce "display quality" infantry in such a small scale, but they can definitely manage tanks.
Set against that is seeing a bunch of the EpicUK armies and sticked them in warhammer world museum for a while as they were blown away at the paint jobs and mini diorama on the bases.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/13 14:22:58
I know you are being facetious there Chaos0xomega, but I guess my answer would be because a lot of Epic gamers do buy GW products, chiefly from the AT and AI ranges, to go along with their games of Epic (from what I have seen this is pretty common).
Although you may be correct - they were willing to torpedo a 'living' community for an active game with WHFB, so might have even less heed for a game that hasn't been officially supported for 20 years!
Pacific wrote: If it comes it will be interesting what happens to the community.
The main danger I think is if they do something like opt for 10mm scale (rather than 8mm) which will really screw over the pretty sizeable cottage industry that has grown up supporting the game, as well as those of us who have sizeable collections.
So, I hope they are at least mindful of that (but who knows?)
Why would they adopt a specific scale for AT or AI and then ignore it completely? I think we can safely put that idea behind us.
Yea, if this happens, there is exactly a 0.0% chance that they use anything other than AT/AI scale.
I haven't taken the dive yet. What do you like about it?
...I'm just sad that Total Biscuit and iNcontrol aren't alive to see it.
Ah man I had forgotten about them. Only four years ago...damn.
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Arbitrator wrote: If AoS is selling better it's because GW's customer base exploded with 40k 8e and since most people are terrified of playing non-GW games no matter how craptastic they are, they inevitably went with AoS because it was GW's fantasy offering. Even 40k's sales were starting to drop in 2015.
You only need to stick your head in to Old World social media spaces to see a similar effect. No matter how angry people were about Fantasy being killed many of those same people still can't comprehend the idea of playing a ruleset (even with their Fantasy models being fully useable in it) that isn't an officially supported Games Workshop product and act like Old World is their only chance of ever playing a rank/file wargame.
No doubt we'll see something similar when/if Epic is coming back; a lot of people clamouring about how much they loved Epic, how they wish they had models for it but stubbornly ignoring fan rulesets even to fill the time and pretending their old rulebooks crumpled to dust the second GW binned it.
Other rank and file fantasy games just don't have it. Even the 9th age forums reference the lack of lore as a detriment to their growth. I don't play AoS - I'm tempted, because I love the models, but I am very eager for Old World.
It has nothing to do with being the biggest and lots to do with making the best models and engaging lore.
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His Master's Voice wrote: Apparently Epic is both alive and well AND in danger of immediate collapse as soon as GW takes notice.
Truly, a Schrödinger's Game.
What is fandom if not dramaaaaa?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/13 15:43:36
Pacific wrote: If it comes it will be interesting what happens to the community.
The main danger I think is if they do something like opt for 10mm scale (rather than 8mm) which will really screw over the pretty sizeable cottage industry that has grown up supporting the game, as well as those of us who have sizeable collections.
So, I hope they are at least mindful of that (but who knows?)
Seeing epic, at and ai are 6mm i really doubt they go for 10mm suddenly. Invalidates all at and ai models.
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: The big center piece model and the kits they want to push will have OP rules to drive sales then the 3 month nerf, rinse lather repeat.
tneva82 wrote: Seeing epic, at and ai are 6mm i really doubt they go for 10mm suddenly. Invalidates all at and ai models.
Wasn't there talk of AT being made in a 8mm infantry "scale"?
When AT launched in 2018, the designers said they chose the ~1/4 of 40k scale so that a marine (a very tall transhuman monster, not a regular person) would be about 8 mm tall because the details would still look nice in case they ever decided to do infantry as well. Their media team cocked up and the internet took this as "zomg 8 mm scale! All older Epic things are invalidated". The Titanicus models measure to about 1:267, which makes a normal 180 cm human about 6-7 mm tall, so the game is "6 mm scale" or "heroic 6 mm" as I like to call it. After the great flame wars over this scale, most people just refer to it as Titanicus scale now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/13 17:19:48
tneva82 wrote: Seeing epic, at and ai are 6mm i really doubt they go for 10mm suddenly. Invalidates all at and ai models.
Wasn't there talk of AT being made in a 8mm infantry "scale"?
This topic tends to get heated. Sherrypie outlined it nicely.
But I agree they probably wouldn't make a drastic scale change. That kinda undermines the entire reason "Epic when?" shows up unsolicited in every conversation about AT and AI.
Sherrypie wrote: Their media team cocked up and the internet took this as "zomg 8 mm scale! All older Epic things are invalidated".
But that's exactly what happened. When you look at AT/AI models side by side with the same model in Epic or AI 1.0 there's a clear scale difference. You can argue about the exact scale number but GW very clearly did change the scale in a way that invalidates existing collections.
tneva82 wrote: Seeing epic, at and ai are 6mm i really doubt they go for 10mm suddenly. Invalidates all at and ai models.
Wasn't there talk of AT being made in a 8mm infantry "scale"?
When AT launched in 2018, the designers said they chose the ~1/4 of 40k scale so that a marine (a very tall transhuman monster, not a regular person) would be about 8 mm tall because the details would still look nice in case they ever decided to do infantry as well. Their media team cocked up and the internet took this as "zomg 8 mm scale! All older Epic things are invalidated". The Titanicus models measure to about 1:267, which makes a normal 180 cm human about 6-7 mm tall, so the game is "6 mm scale" or "heroic 6 mm" as I like to call it. After the great flame wars over this scale, most people just refer to it as Titanicus scale now.
Surely it can't be 6mm now otherwise why would the Aeronautica Imperialis miniatures then be a noticeably different size to the previous models which were also supposedly 6mm?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/13 18:57:16
Sherrypie wrote: Their media team cocked up and the internet took this as "zomg 8 mm scale! All older Epic things are invalidated".
But that's exactly what happened. When you look at AT/AI models side by side with the same model in Epic or AI 1.0 there's a clear scale difference. You can argue about the exact scale number but GW very clearly did change the scale in a way that invalidates existing collections.
So a Warhound Titan should be able to carry a crew of three inside its head. Have you tried placing three 8mm (or even 6mm) scaled models next to its head? Seems like they won’t fit…
Sherrypie wrote: Their media team cocked up and the internet took this as "zomg 8 mm scale! All older Epic things are invalidated".
But that's exactly what happened. When you look at AT/AI models side by side with the same model in Epic or AI 1.0 there's a clear scale difference. You can argue about the exact scale number but GW very clearly did change the scale in a way that invalidates existing collections.
Invalidates existing collections of the few people that had models for a game that hasn't been made in 25 years. I think making something that new customers want to buy is more important to them than keeping people with dusty epic stuff in their closet and 3D printers happy.
So a Warhound Titan should be able to carry a crew of three inside its head. Have you tried placing three 8mm (or even 6mm) scaled models next to its head? Seems like they won’t fit…
Considering that the 40K scale Warhound literally has a hollow head with three 40K scale people in it, I don't quite grasp how dividing the size of the titan and the people by four would cause them to no longer fit in there.
Sherrypie wrote: Their media team cocked up and the internet took this as "zomg 8 mm scale! All older Epic things are invalidated".
But that's exactly what happened. When you look at AT/AI models side by side with the same model in Epic or AI 1.0 there's a clear scale difference. You can argue about the exact scale number but GW very clearly did change the scale in a way that invalidates existing collections.
An Epic plastic SM scout is a head and a half taller than a regular plastic powered armor space marine. Let's just say Epic scale was anything but consistent.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/13 19:36:04
tneva82 wrote: Except of course it's not as simple as click button. AT warlord cad took about as much time to get in 6mm as it would have been from scratch.
I mean, it's a good job that that windmill doesn't reflect what the previous poster said, tneva - xttz said:
The 3D CAD designs being done from scratch for the new range of 28mm HH units can be designed for both scales at the same time
"Designed for both scales at the same time" =/= "Press a button to convert from one scale to another"
tneva82 wrote: Seeing epic, at and ai are 6mm i really doubt they go for 10mm suddenly. Invalidates all at and ai models.
Wasn't there talk of AT being made in a 8mm infantry "scale"?
When AT launched in 2018, the designers said they chose the ~1/4 of 40k scale so that a marine (a very tall transhuman monster, not a regular person) would be about 8 mm tall because the details would still look nice in case they ever decided to do infantry as well. Their media team cocked up and the internet took this as "zomg 8 mm scale! All older Epic things are invalidated". The Titanicus models measure to about 1:267, which makes a normal 180 cm human about 6-7 mm tall, so the game is "6 mm scale" or "heroic 6 mm" as I like to call it. After the great flame wars over this scale, most people just refer to it as Titanicus scale now.
Surely it can't be 6mm now otherwise why would the Aeronautica Imperialis miniatures then be a noticeably different size to the previous models which were also supposedly 6mm?
The AI planes are obviously flying at a different altitude to the older Epic ones...
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Toofast wrote: Invalidates existing collections of the few people that had models for a game that hasn't been made in 25 years. I think making something that new customers want to buy is more important to them than keeping people with dusty epic stuff in their closet and 3D printers happy.
Ok? You can argue the merits of a scale change but that doesn't mean the scale change was just uniformed people ranting on the internet, as the person I was replying to claimed.
So a Warhound Titan should be able to carry a crew of three inside its head. Have you tried placing three 8mm (or even 6mm) scaled models next to its head? Seems like they won’t fit…
Considering that the 40K scale Warhound literally has a hollow head with three 40K scale people in it, I don't quite grasp how dividing the size of the titan and the people by four would cause them to no longer fit in there.
You’d be surprised…
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/13 20:30:53
