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^Yeah, this.

And there was a whole category of units which explicitly didn't feel fear, called Fearless, and Marines weren't part of that group.

 Gert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
But according to the rules, also fear. Tyranid Warriors doing the same for a non-warp example.

And the rules often don't reflect the background and we are in the background forum so.

Prove that the rules don't reflect the background here.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Prove that the rules don't reflect the background here.

Tau drones never had the Fearless USR, even shield drones whose sole purpose was to take incoming fire and be destroyed. It makes no sense for a non-sentient expendable weapon platform to have emotions. Tactical retreat programming to avoid expending valuable equipment for minimal gain, sure, but certainly not fear. So clearly the presence or absence of the Fearless USR is not decisive from a fluff point of view.

(I do agree that marines feel fear, but the Fearless USR argument isn't the proof.)

^That's an interesting point, but still not proof that the rules aren't representing something akin to fear either in the case of Marines. Drones may exhibit the behavior of fear without actually feeling it. Marines might, too . . . But what's the evidence for that?

Edit: In 2nd edition, the rules with an explicit Fear mechanic, I couldn't find a robot(to compare with Tau drones) with the materials at hand. However there are Servitors (human robots, essentially) and they are immune to psychology (Fear, Terror etc.)

 Insectum7 wrote:
^That's an interesting point, but still not proof that the rules aren't representing something akin to fear either in the case of Marines. Drones may exhibit the behavior of fear without actually feeling it. Marines might, too . . . But what's the evidence for that?

It isn't conclusive evidence for marines feeling fear, it's conclusive evidence against the idea that the presence or absence of the Fearless USR says anything about a unit's ability to feel a particular emotion. A non-sentient weapon platform is no more capable of feeling fear than a missile guidance computer so GW is clearly using the morale mechanic to represent a calculated decision to preserve resources vs. holding ground. So in the case of space marines do they lack the Fearless USR because they are incapable of feeling the emotion or because the rules represent marine units making a tactical retreat rather than a pointless suicidal stand? We don't know enough to say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As another example, consider vehicles. I forget if they were actually Fearless or just ignored morale by not having a leadership stat but either way they could never demonstrate fear on the tabletop. But I think we'd all agree that the human crew of a LRBT is capable of feeling fear in the fluff sense.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

It isn't conclusive evidence for marines feeling fear, it's conclusive evidence against. . .

I'd say it's inconclusive evidence against, to be precise.

But the Drone rules state "They are programmed for self-preservation and take Leadership tests normally.", which one could paraphrase roughly as "despite not feeling fear like other troops, they behave in a similar fashion and thus are subject to the same Leadership rules." which still leaves the default behavior surrounding Leadership tests and Morale as being a rough approximation of fear or lack thereof.

The whole ATSKNF thing anyways takes part in a whole overall system of morale which helps apply context, where there are Fearless troops, there are troops with terrible Morale, there are troops with higher Leadership values but different behaviors because they don't have ATSKNF. There's even an interesting gamut among the Marines themselves which can speak to whether a failed Marine morale check is Marines exercising discipline in self preservation or not, because we have an example of "perfect discipline" in the rules for Marneus Calgar in 5th(?) edition, where if he's on the table it allows the player to choose whether to pass or fail any morale check. In fact I think that edition allowed a Marine player to choose to fail any Morale check, giving a distinction between Marines falling back because it was the most advantageous thing to do vs. falling back because their Morale has faltered.

Also useful to note are various ways to effect Leadership tests. I think Dark Eldar in particular have/had a number of those. Something that they're doing is making Marines more likely to fail Morale, one would think fear could play a significant part. There's also instances of Pariahs effecting Leadership, something is really making Marines waver in their commitment to the fight, again contrasting that against units who were actually Fearless and immune to such effects.

But I still contend that the most damning example rules-wise is actually having a mechanic called Fear, and Marines being subject to it.

. . .

But there's also obviously the former background mention that Curze could make even Marines feel fear, which means that Marines can definitely feel fear.

The deal is really that Marines are just much less likely to be afraid in comparison to other troops, and even feeling fear, they're more likely to persevere and continue to perform dutifully.

 Insectum7 wrote:
But the Drone rules state "They are programmed for self-preservation and take Leadership tests normally.", which one could paraphrase roughly as "despite not feeling fear like other troops, they behave in a similar fashion and thus are subject to the same Leadership rules." which still leaves the default behavior surrounding Leadership tests and Morale as being a rough approximation of fear or lack thereof.

Right, that's my point. You can't look at behavior alone because taking leadership test normally can be both a unit feeling fear as an emotion and a unit acting in a way that is similar enough that it uses the same mechanics even though no emotion is felt. The question here is do marines feel fear as an emotion, not whether they will fall back from a hopeless fight. Having or not having the Fearless USR tells you absolutely nothing because there are Fearless units that feel fear as an emotion and there are units which roll leadership normally but can not possibly feel fear (or emotions of any kind).

The deal is really that Marines are just much less likely to be afraid in comparison to other troops, and even feeling fear, they're more likely to persevere and continue to perform dutifully.

I agree with that. I simply dispute the idea that the Fearless USR is at all relevant here.

I wouldn't say Fearless or lack thereof isn't relevant, rather it's just not 100% reliable. It can also still provide some context.

There's another argument to be made about the intent of such rules being aimed at a framework of common units, with the exceptions to the literal meaning being accepted for exotic units later. And Marines are a very common unit, possibly even assumed to be the default.

But whatevs, sorta academic at that point. Not necessary to the conversation, just kinda interesting.

On a related note, do you think Custodes or Astartes are braver?

I don't really know anything about Custodes beyond hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s is really irritating as an opponent.

Hecaton wrote:
On a related note, do you think Custodes or Astartes are braver?

Custodes. It's not even really a question tbh. I actually can't recall a single time a Custodes showed fear. They might actually not feel it, and even Gert's vaunted cheat code the Daemons when pouring into the Imperial Palace couldn't make the Custodes feel fright.

Hecaton wrote:
On a related note, do you think Custodes or Astartes are braver?

I mean, we're getting into philosophical territory here. What's our definition of "bravery?" Are you really brave if you can't properly feel fear in the first place?

I concede that marines probably feel fear given the right stimuli. Although I still think there's room to argue that they don't such much "feel fear" as they just get overloaded with disgust/anger that makes them behave in an undisciplined fashion. And that they feel "anxiety" and such rather than "fear" when we're talking about a "fear" of failure, etc. I don't recall a scene where a marine wets himself because he gets caught up thinking about failing a mission.

My take on marines, partly to excuse how annoyingly written they tend to be, is that they're all basically emotionally stunted man babies whose lack of people skills are often exasperated by the mental conditioning that makes them incapable of processing emotions in a human fashion and thus makes it more difficult for them to utilize empathy for humans. Which in turn results in these tough-but-brittle minds that tend to absolutely crumble and/or get corrupted by chaos once you put a crack in them. See: apothecaries that go on semi-suicidal spiritual retreats when they fail to harvest some geneseed, any marine that falls to chaos due to highschool drama, every instance of a marine losing his gak because his sword swing wasn't perfect enough, etc.

Besides my sweaty gym socks...

I would say deployment to boring "diplomatic missions" where there is little to no action. Just guarding old, frail, and crippled VIPs far away from actual combat zones. Listening to ambassadors and courtiers boasting about their wealth and various vacations, and leisure activities.

I guess a "bad deployment", to something polar opposite of their temperament and programming. Not exactly fear. Maybe the close cousin of fear - Dread.

Well any deathwatch marine that knows his head from his ass probably dreads the idea of being licked by a genestealer, and then getting the following compulsion to get bo...osteodeposited by the thing.

Crass jokes aside, I'd say they probably do get a measure of fear. Fear is pretty good and useful, but fear to the point of terror on the other hand is not. I've read plenty of things where marines get motivated by fear. Very few is the account where they actually freeze up or fail in their duty due to it and this is the difference between fear and terror IMHO. Fear can motivate them and sharpen their senses even more than they already are, terror blinds and imoblises, it is not useful.

How has no one said they fear nothing but fear itself?

The_Real_Chris wrote:
How has no one said they fear nothing but fear itself?

Actually... off-topic, but shouldn't there be a chaos god of fear? Or is that Nurgle's gimmick with the whole fear of death thing?

Wyldhunt wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
How has no one said they fear nothing but fear itself?

Actually... off-topic, but shouldn't there be a chaos god of fear? Or is that Nurgle's gimmick with the whole fear of death thing?

Possibly, but the fear of death was ascribed to the C'tan Nightbringer back in the 3rd ed Necron codex. I don't know if that's been written out since then, but I really liked that bit.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
How has no one said they fear nothing but fear itself?

Actually... off-topic, but shouldn't there be a chaos god of fear? Or is that Nurgle's gimmick with the whole fear of death thing?

Possibly, but the fear of death was ascribed to the C'tan Nightbringer back in the 3rd ed Necron codex. I don't know if that's been written out since then, but I really liked that bit.

Well if there was a chaos with strong affinites to fear and terror Conrad Kruze would have been alinged with it. But he the nighthaunt is sorta it himself.