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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

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Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

Arm-wrestling? Honestly, why not? Is it any different than successful games like, "Throw, Throw Burrito?" How about when Space Fleet and Adeptus Titanicus had you actually throw dice at a diagram? Dread the RPG has you remove pieces from a Jenga tower, and it is great fun! If people find it fun, and it aligns with what the game designer was trying to accomplish; that is a successful mechanic. Even if it is a bit Over the Top!




To be clear, my point is that Measuring vs. no Pre-measuring is just another design choice to get to what the goals of the game are.

Let's take a look at a hypothetical ancient game for a moment. After reading the Texts, the designer decides to put the focus on heavy infantry with an advantage to those who charge first. The ideal list should be one with a good ability to charge first and make contact first. Therefore, the "crux" of the strategy and tactics is trying to maneuver for the decisive charge without being charged yourself.

In such a case, no pre-measuring may be of benefit. The decision making at the simplest level is, do I risk the long range charge where I can miss and leave myself vulnerable, or do I wait for a "sure thing" but risk getting charged myself?

No pre-measuring would also give you a reason to take alternate units that will help you determine the best time to charge, light infantry to help you get a feel for the distances via scouting and moving before your heavies. Missile troops to help you gauge ranges. Fast units moving to help you understand the distance between two points on the battlefield, and where the enemy is in relation to your units.

Sure, as the player you think you are "working around the measurement rules" but instead the designer has now got you using units in a manner reminiscent of how they were used in ancient battles.

Again, I am not saying that "All games should NEVER allow pre-measuring" or am I saying "Pre-measuring is stupid and anyone who uses it is stupid and should feel bad!" I am saying the decision to allow it or not should be aligned with how the designer wants the game played to achieve their goals.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




no pre-measure for that "charge matters" situation could work, however whats better is you know the distance, but you don't know exactly how far your troops will charge, throw a probability curve so 2 or more dice not a 1 dice pure random, provide some sort of probability distribution you can work with

and definitely then ways to work it out, as you note, scouting units that could be sent forwards to chuck a few spears which provides a good estimate of range (or providing a dice modifier if you have pre-measure)

agree that if you are blocking pre measurement you need to have a good reason and ideally make finding ways around it part of the game

in effect it needs to have a function as part of the game, not simply be some gimmick to try and add some 'complexity' where in truth there really isn't all that much

while at the same time avoiding the absurdities of 7th Warhammer with fractions of an inch and "impossible charges" etc by having some randomness somewhere

have also seen stuff where the result of not measuring is not pass/fail but some other mechanic, like yes you make the charge but the distance impacts the combat

too short and you lack impact effects, too far and risk exhaustion, so you will get in, but you now have a reason to try to get it right
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




I like the idea of having to estimate your range by eye. It adds an element of doubt which I think would really matter in critical moments. I enjoy it when you feel more like a commander on the ground, and having doubt as to whether or not you can fire on that bunker, and all the problems that might arise if you can't, are key to that experience. I would strongly advise on an allowance for drop-off in your 'to-hit' roll or whatever, if it turns out the target was too far away. Still allow the shot, just make it weaker on a sliding scale. It's bonkers that a gun hits fine at 8 inches but has zero effect at 8.5. You don't experience this madness in pre-measure rules, because if you can't hit the target, you don't shoot in the first place.

I also wanted to say this:

The idea of 'fairness' in games is achieved by each player abiding by the rules. That's it. Having a keener eye, being more intelligent, better suited to abstract ideas, being more tactically-minded...all that stuff, all these are not things in the balance of fairness, they're what you're trying to find out in the first place. The sum of all that stuff in you, compared to the sum of all that stuff in the other person. Competition is there to see who's best. If someone loses because they haven't trained their eye to measure distances, well then that's an area to improve on. More power to that person.



   
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 Easy E wrote:
Arm-wrestling? Honestly, why not?


Because it's a stupid mechanic that has nothing to do with the rest of the game? You maneuver your planes on the table, and then you resolve combat by getting out the boxing gloves and fighting the other player until someone submits? Do you really not see why this would be a bad game?

The decision making at the simplest level is, do I risk the long range charge where I can miss and leave myself vulnerable, or do I wait for a "sure thing" but risk getting charged myself?


At that point you've already abandoned historical accuracy entirely. In the real world there is no such thing as "miss and leave myself vulnerable". In the real world you don't have units/armies taking alternate turns, standing motionless while it's the enemy's turn to move. In the real world you don't "miss" with a charge and magically teleport back to your starting position because you were a bit too far away to reach the enemy. In reality both units/armies are acting simultaneously and a charge that starts from a bit outside one turn worth of movement just hits the enemy a moment later than one that starts from a few steps closer.

If you want a game that is a test of measuring skill then at least be honest enough to admit that you want a war-themed game of distance evaluation, don't try to present it as somehow being historically accurate or relevant to real tactics and strategy.

Sure, as the player you think you are "working around the measurement rules" but instead the designer has now got you using units in a manner reminiscent of how they were used in ancient battles.


You really aren't. In the real world missile troops were used to inflict damage on the enemy, not to determine if the unit was 51' away or 49' away. The designer has you using units to play the specific dice and measurement mechanics, not to simulate their real-world use.

And that's assuming people play the game honestly and don't include a single token unit of missile troops to hide in the back corner and "attempt to fire" every turn as an excuse to place the tape measure next to your important units and measure range. Once people start doing that kind of thing, and they absolutely will, the ban on measuring becomes a complete farce.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 20:34:13


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Aecus Decimus wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
Arm-wrestling? Honestly, why not?


Because it's a stupid mechanic that has nothing to do with the rest of the game? You maneuver your planes on the table, and then you resolve combat by getting out the boxing gloves and fighting the other player until someone submits? Do you really not see why this would be a bad game?



It's a completely fine mechanic so long as the game is marketed and sold with the mechanic clearly advertised so that those getting involved understand it. There are plenty of "mash up" concepts. Heck the whole idea of the Wii Sports system is a mashup of digital entertainment and physical exercise/input.

Beating your opponent in an aircraft dog-fighting game by arm wrestling is no different to beating your Wii Sports score.



Sure you could make it too daft, but the concept could be made to work. In the end it all depends on what the intention of the games creator is and the target market. Arm Wrestling games might well not be very popular with geeks, but who knows perhaps they'd be a solid hit with a different demographic.

Or perhaps it would fail utterly or be marketing wrong and fail on that score; or whatever.

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Chicago

I prefer to allow measuring at any time for any reason.

If a game designer wants to represent the uncertainty of a given unit successfully assessing ranges and distances then do so in the rules, not by turning a tabletop wargame into a measure of comparative player depth perception.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 23:01:35


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 Overread wrote:
Beating your opponent in an aircraft dog-fighting game by arm wrestling is no different to beating your Wii Sports score.


Wrestling, not arm wrestling. We're talking full contact martial arts, not a mere arm on the table.

And it would be a stupid mechanic because it would make the rest of the game redundant. You'd have a wrestling match with a weird little tabletop game tacked on, and the outcome of the game would be almost entirely decided by the wrestling match instead of by clever maneuvering, superior energy management, etc. It would be a failure as a dogfighting game and a failure as an athletic event.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 23:05:06


 
   
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Aecus Decimus wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Beating your opponent in an aircraft dog-fighting game by arm wrestling is no different to beating your Wii Sports score.


Wrestling, not arm wrestling. We're talking full contact martial arts, not a mere arm on the table.

And it would be a stupid mechanic because it would make the rest of the game redundant. You'd have a wrestling match with a weird little tabletop game tacked on, and the outcome of the game would be almost entirely decided by the wrestling match instead of by clever maneuvering, superior energy management, etc. It would be a failure as a dogfighting game and a failure as an athletic event.


Side note: chess boxing is a sport that exists. Alternating rounds of playing chess and beating the snot out of one another.
   
 
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