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I very much get the feeling they ran the numbers and realised that PP isn't going to survive 2023 on KS and MiniCrate money alone and that now is the time for a hail mary pass. Given that manufacturing and distribution have really kneecapped Mk3 I don't blame them for trying to do *something* to stay alive, even if the legends thing is a bitter pill to swallow for anyone with a sizeable collection.

Good luck to them. I think they are gonna need it.

I hope they bring back their own Magazine.

No

commercial electricity is much more expensive than domestic (as there is no energy cap and firms can pass on all the costs they want to)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Hobby 3D printing isn’t commercial 3D printing. If I’m doing it for me, it’s annoying if a model comes out on the wonk, but ultimately it’s just a waste of electricity and the goo. If a commercially scaled 3D printer goes on the wonk? That’s multiple prints knackered, as well as time and money wasted.

I know my 3D Printing Friend has to calibrate his machine and do other maintenance, but not that often. Now whether that’s him taking risks or if the tech is generally quite reliable on say, quarterly cleaning and calibration i simply don’t know, but I’m sure someone here can clarify.

There’s also the question of long term development. We know GW has the money to make pretty significant investments in its production facilities and capacity, and in plastic (which I understand to be the most expensive to get setup for, but among the cheapest, if not the cheapest, to produce.

How scalable are these farms? I mean, if this edition takes off, and they see the sort of growth GW has been posting in the last few years (could potentially be higher, given comments about lack of availability outside the US). That’s not just adding a few more machines, depending on their starting capacity, but potentially doubling their available machines. That seems quite cost intensive in machines, factory space and people to run it?

Please note dear reader this isn’t “Mad Doc Gaks On PP’s Chips”. I’m just genuinely interested in this development, regardless of which company is trying it.

There's two type of printers. FDM, which later plastic (or similar material) up and are basically fancy plotters vs resin printers. FDMs require a lot of maintenance as there's a lot of moving parts and fail points. Resin printers are incredibly stupid simple mechanically. Cheap ones only have one moving part (a motor) and expensive ones will have two (two motors for two rails for stability) generally and really only need their stepper rods cleaned vary rarely. The other maintenance for Resin printers is a teflon coated sheet of plastic (or similar item) called FEP that wears out over time and this can take about 30min to replace but you can just swap resin vats with a fresh one on and then replace on the other while printing. Calibrating is also very simple if using the same resin. For production you'd want to calibrate for each batch of resin but they can buy a whole lot at once and ensure it's the same so they may only have to Calibrate when switching between resin batches or after screen/laser replacements which may only be 2-3 times a year.

The last consumable is the screen or laser (depending on the printer). Mono screens can last about 3,000-5,000 print hours and are pretty easy swaps (still about 30min) while lasers are 20,000 or so print hours (No clue on how much effort they are to swap but that's years worth of printing).

Scaling up is as simple as adding a new machine so you're only limited by space. A lot of print farms have management software that can manage all the stuff being printed remotely so you don't have to walk to each printer one at a time and start but you do for cleaning after the print. That's where the biggest time sink is for resin and what would be the most expensive to scale up as you need people to do that work.

One also hopes they’re taking their Cyber Security super seriously. Not only could a donkey cave steal the files, but potentially ransomware their production facilities.

And yes. That sort of donkey cave does exist.

 Siygess wrote:
I very much get the feeling they ran the numbers and realised that PP isn't going to survive 2023 on KS and MiniCrate money alone and that now is the time for a hail mary pass. Given that manufacturing and distribution have really kneecapped Mk3 I don't blame them for trying to do *something* to stay alive, even if the legends thing is a bitter pill to swallow for anyone with a sizeable collection.

Good luck to them. I think they are gonna need it.

I wouldn't say that. I think its pretty clear this has been in the works for years. People have been speculating this since as far back as 2019 at the least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RazorEdge wrote:
I hope they bring back their own Magazine.

It sounds like that's the major point of the subscription to the app. There really aren't any other features worth paying for.

 Valander wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
...why? I don't understand. You'd buy the end result anyways, the minis, and they'd be available in more locations (currently you really can only get PP stuff in Noth America).

People like to walk into a store, see a box, and buy it. This entirely removes that sort of off the cuff curiosity. Once you're established it's fine, but growing the game will be difficult.

There's nothing saying they're not going to be at retail. In fact, I'd be really surprised if they did that (and, frankly, that would be stupid).

What this plan does, theoretically, is turn warehousing into production facility as well. Rather than shipping palettes of completely packed models in retail packaging, they can have their hub produce the models themselves, then toss those into the retail packaging and send to distributors. They weren't saying anything about not selling to retail.

Hmm. Sounds difficult and erratic though. I guess we'll see! Should be interesting either way.

And thank you to those pushing back the boundary of my ignorance here. All very welcome info and I’m learning things!

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
No

commercial electricity is much more expensive than domestic (as there is no energy cap and firms can pass on all the costs they want to)

Might that be a country thing? Because here industrial electricity is cheaper in euro/kWh, even though they use to pay more because they spend much more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Valander wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
...why? I don't understand. You'd buy the end result anyways, the minis, and they'd be available in more locations (currently you really can only get PP stuff in Noth America).

People like to walk into a store, see a box, and buy it. This entirely removes that sort of off the cuff curiosity. Once you're established it's fine, but growing the game will be difficult.

There's nothing saying they're not going to be at retail. In fact, I'd be really surprised if they did that (and, frankly, that would be stupid).

What this plan does, theoretically, is turn warehousing into production facility as well. Rather than shipping palettes of completely packed models in retail packaging, they can have their hub produce the models themselves, then toss those into the retail packaging and send to distributors. They weren't saying anything about not selling to retail.

Hmm. Sounds difficult and erratic though. I guess we'll see! Should be interesting either way.

Not really: if they were able to do last mile shipping to retail stores before, they will be able to do it now. It's the same problem, just changing the address of the storage unit you point as origin. Much easier to solve that having a single production facility for all the world and having to send your stuff to wharehouses everywhere and then having to negotiate the last mile delivery anyways.

It's a brave step for sure

As a 3d noob isn't there a danger that the STL files will find their way to the wider inter-tubes for freeby downloads

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
It's a brave step for sure

As a 3d noob isn't there a danger that the STL files will find their way to the wider inter-tubes for freeby downloads

Yes, there is. But the risk exists as soon as there are stl files. If they build their own printing farms, it will still be a internal security problem.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Another question in the hope folk might know…

Do commercial premises receive favourable-compared-to-residential electricity costs?

Depends on where you live and the various laws.

My mom, now retired, use to work for a city here in the States that has their own power generation (hydro) and powering on a commercial factory could cost 20k from a cold start (this was my uncle's cost for his lumber mill back in the 90s in that same city) while running may be half of what residential is.

To understand why this is the case Electricity has to be generated on demand, it cannot be stored, so a large part about running a power grid is figuring out what demand will be and making sure you're producing just enough for that demand. If you make too little you have to buy from an adjacent grid which can be very expensive. If you have extra you can sell it to other grids but there not always a buyer available so generally all that is done via contracts with neighboring grids.

So back to that super high cold start up cost. Well that's expensive because all the sudden you have a wave of unexpected demand. So you have to go out and buy electricity from another grid -- which can be quite expensive. In most places in the US starting up a large commercial facility without scheduling it will get you into a lot of trouble. Even then, with scheduling, the location you're at may not be able to produce what you need at that time or requires them to bring on extra production and then scale back down an hour later (which is also expensive). So generally factories never fully power down unless they're forced too or do rolling starts where they spread it out over a long period.

Why it can be cheaper the residential is once your factory is running it's very consistent in it's power draw and easier to plan for while residential is always a bit of a guessing game. How many people are going to turn on extra TVs or PCs then they normally do and so on.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
It's a brave step for sure

As a 3d noob isn't there a danger that the STL files will find their way to the wider inter-tubes for freeby downloads

Yes, there is. But the risk exists as soon as there are stl files. If they build their own printing farms, it will still be a internal security problem.

Yeah, if they're lax with their own internal security, this could happen. Which is why I suspect they will vet whatever farms they use or set up very thoroughly, and why they likely will never sell the STLs to J. Random Public. Really, though, not any inherently higher risk if they keep everything locked down like they would with any other digital assets. The biggest hole for STL leaking is, frankly, if they're sold or otherwise distributed to non-company personnel.

And I'm sure if there is a leak from any of their licensed or internal farms, there will be some stiff legal penalties, just as there would be for leaking financial records or any other trade secrets. I don't think any "up and up" printer service would want to risk that, and I would be very surprised if they use anything other than well established firms, or set up their own facilities.

Given the whole MK3 debacle was a result of translation files for the cards leaking.... I'm sure its a concern they've thought about. Enough.... eh, probably not, but they've been burned before.

For context, an overwhelming majority of models on sale today will at some point in their development existed as .stls or in a format that could easily be used to produce one.

I cannot think of one instance where those files have found their way into the wrong hands.

 Azreal13 wrote:
For context, an overwhelming majority of models on sale today will at some point in their development existed as .stls or in a format that could easily be used to produce one.

I cannot think of one instance where those files have found their way into the wrong hands.

I can, actually, there's a small number of bushido designs that were leaked.

But still.

Well, me and my 150+ Menoth models will take a look at the new rules. Was not a fan of MKIII, but it was clear they were moving towards something, and despite them completely omitting the Exemplars from the latest Menoth book, it was a good read.

Frankly, I would be interested in them offering both physical prints and .stl files. Even if the .stls cost the same as the physical product, I'd probably buy all the ones for Menoth.

 Sacredroach wrote:
Well, me and my 150+ Menoth models will take a look at the new rules. Was not a fan of MKIII, but it was clear they were moving towards something, and despite them completely omitting the Exemplars from the latest Menoth book, it was a good read.

Frankly, I would be interested in them offering both physical prints and .stl files. Even if the .stls cost the same as the physical product, I'd probably buy all the ones for Menoth.

I, too, would love to be able to buy STLs, but they've confirmed a few times now on their FB feed that this is not going to happen.

There's going to be a stream tomorrow at 4 PM CDT / 2 PM PDT showing off the 3d printed models among other things from other Privateer games.

twitch.tv/nekuraizou

So, I take that this means if you want any of the metal or plastic minis buy them now before they're gone.

Are they ending warcaster and monsterpocalypse metals also?

Werkrobotwerk wrote:
So, I take that this means if you want any of the metal or plastic minis buy them now before they're gone.

Are they ending warcaster and monsterpocalypse metals also?

No word on Warcaster or MonPoc, but I wouldn't be surprised if they move to the same production model if it works out.

Also, it seems they're pretty much gonna redo the whole range anyway, so any existing models may go "Unlimited" status. If they make the move to the Prime status, I would not be surprised if that includes new sculpts, or at least new 3d print production if they already had digital masters (which most probably do, except for some of the really old ones).

It does feel like a bit of a last hail mary from them, although the writing was on the wall for years now about the model line being cycled out like a LCG if not discontinued entirely.

Metals definitely weren't sustainable. Their international prices were infamous even before Covid and the costs have no doubt exacerbated that. At this point I don't think they've anything to lose by going the 3D printing route, although it'll be interesting to see their stance towards Not-Warjacks (Jack Warriors?) inevitably appearing on Cults and the like if they do find more success with Mkvi.

I genuinely love Warmahordes as a game and a setting but our local scene was another casualty of Mk3 (but mostly 8th edition 40k) Releasing in a year of 10th 40k is probably a mistake, but it's not as if their financials would let them delay until the hype around that has passed I guess. If they can carve out a healthy slice of the wargaming market again then more power to them.

Honestly, the restricted armies/models are really only codifying what was already basically true. Sure you could technically take anything before- but it's not like you were taking Stormclads with Trenchers, Grenadiers with gun mages, or Morrowan anything without Connie.

Having models drop or losing access will be hard for sure but then again... it'll still be more models than I'm using for the game right now, which is zero.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
It's a brave step for sure

As a 3d noob isn't there a danger that the STL files will find their way to the wider inter-tubes for freeby downloads

About as much of a chance that GW's STL files find their way onto the internet. Both companies can pretty easily restrict the STLs to a limited group of people and either cut a mold from that (GW) or slice the file and hand that off to the printing department (Privateer). Honestly, unless you have a new release to add to the print rotation, I would expect even the sliced files wouldn't really be accessible to the print shop. Just select the file that's being printed from the USB drive (or network, more likely), push a button, and remove it from the build plate when you're done.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Edit: none of the small firm that have move from casting resin to 3d printing have reduced prices that i've seen, which probably suggests there isn't a huge cost difference at present at least for a small outfit, PP might be different as they're still probably medium sized at least in ambition

It's possibly not so much that there isn't a huge cost difference as that moving to 3D printing has allowed them to not raise their prices to keep up with the ever-increasing cost of resin production.

3D printing resin has been on a constant slide downwards in cost as well. Nowhere near as much demand causing supply issues combined with a lot of competition in the market means it's really affordable.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One also hopes they’re taking their Cyber Security super seriously. Not only could a donkey cave steal the files, but potentially ransomware their production facilities.

And yes. That sort of donkey cave does exist.

Donkey cave? Surely you mean an entrepreneur who …works like he’s got a pair.

One thing I'm not as happy about is that they are rolling WM and Hordes into one game - PERFECT they should have done that years ago with MK2.

However they are staggering hordes good chunk away from the WM releases for this new edition. I kind of get that but at the same time I'd kind of expected them to release a WM and H army side by side at the very start and progress through with a similar fairly even hand.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

 Sabotage! wrote:


That said the MSRPs they are listing for 3D printed miniatures seem pretty outrageous. 200 bucks for half a 3D printed army? I’d call that a tough sell.

Why? 3d printers still require a good amount of work to clean up and maintain. My larger printer, about iPad sized screen, can easily take me 60-90 minutes to clean up and do the final cure of the minis for maybe 20-30 things. If they're using a really good resin that plate is going to be $30-$40 right there for just humans. Then the screen wear time has to be added.

They aren't something you spend 10min with and everything magically exists ready to use.

You also have to add in the distributor and store tax of 60% or so (so that 200 bundle is being sold into distribution for $80).


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scarletsquig wrote:
3d printed production is brilliant, first major company to go down this route.

Because I can get 20 (or more) Infinity miniatures in metal, with models roughly the size of warjacks….for less than 200 bucks and have two fully armies for a skirmish game. They are also in metal (and better sculpts) which costs a lot more than resin and has mold costs that 3D printing does not. Heck I can get two full factions for Kill Team and an enough terrain to cover the entire board for 200 bucks and that is HIPS with huge start up costs. 3D printing is considerably cheaper than both of those options…and while the process you describe is true….if Privateer Press is actually going through with this they are going to have a lot more than one 3D printed and one person doing all the prep work…so economy of scale is a factor.

Heck I can get 20 Relicblade miniatures in metal for 200 bucks and that is from a literal one man operation, and also would give me more than enough to play a complete game.

So 200 bucks for half of an army needed for a game in one of the cheapest materials to produce in…..well you get the picture.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Hobby 3D printing isn’t commercial 3D printing. If I’m doing it for me, it’s annoying if a model comes out on the wonk, but ultimately it’s just a waste of electricity and the goo. If a commercially scaled 3D printer goes on the wonk? That’s multiple prints knackered, as well as time and money wasted.

I know my 3D Printing Friend has to calibrate his machine and do other maintenance, but not that often. Now whether that’s him taking risks or if the tech is generally quite reliable on say, quarterly cleaning and calibration i simply don’t know, but I’m sure someone here can clarify.

There’s also the question of long term development. We know GW has the money to make pretty significant investments in its production facilities and capacity, and in plastic (which I understand to be the most expensive to get setup for, but among the cheapest, if not the cheapest, to produce.

How scalable are these farms? I mean, if this edition takes off, and they see the sort of growth GW has been posting in the last few years (could potentially be higher, given comments about lack of availability outside the US). That’s not just adding a few more machines, depending on their starting capacity, but potentially doubling their available machines. That seems quite cost intensive in machines, factory space and people to run it?

Please note dear reader this isn’t “Mad Doc Gaks On PP’s Chips”. I’m just genuinely interested in this development, regardless of which company is trying it.

There's two type of printers. FDM, which later plastic (or similar material) up and are basically fancy plotters vs resin printers. FDMs require a lot of maintenance as there's a lot of moving parts and fail points. Resin printers are incredibly stupid simple mechanically. Cheap ones only have one moving part (a motor) and expensive ones will have two (two motors for two rails for stability) generally and really only need their stepper rods cleaned vary rarely. The other maintenance for Resin printers is a teflon coated sheet of plastic (or similar item) called FEP that wears out over time and this can take about 30min to replace but you can just swap resin vats with a fresh one on and then replace on the other while printing. Calibrating is also very simple if using the same resin. For production you'd want to calibrate for each batch of resin but they can buy a whole lot at once and ensure it's the same so they may only have to Calibrate when switching between resin batches or after screen/laser replacements which may only be 2-3 times a year.

The last consumable is the screen or laser (depending on the printer). Mono screens can last about 3,000-5,000 print hours and are pretty easy swaps (still about 30min) while lasers are 20,000 or so print hours (No clue on how much effort they are to swap but that's years worth of printing).

Scaling up is as simple as adding a new machine so you're only limited by space. A lot of print farms have management software that can manage all the stuff being printed remotely so you don't have to walk to each printer one at a time and start but you do for cleaning after the print. That's where the biggest time sink is for resin and what would be the most expensive to scale up as you need people to do that work.

There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.