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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
you keep trying to gotcha us with that argument when everyone here agrees with it, you're being a dumbass

'Cause the dude clearly doesn't know how to structure an argument. I've been saying that since the beginning.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
what hyperbolic claim?

The claim that it's more than just one person posting stupid stuff about "painting incels" and such. OP's poll is obviously terrible but that's one person. Over and over again you, and people like you, keep insisting that polite disagreement or mild criticism are an inexcusable attack and invent your own straw man comments about "laziness" or "get out of the hobby" to justify your accusations. It's happening here, it's happening in the other threads, and it happens every time this subject comes up. You just can't tolerate the idea that someone would disagree with allowing unpainted models.

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Only for your hypothetical "virtually everyone". Whose opinions only matter for their models. Not anyone else's.

And, again, the point is that it isn't a genuine opinion. Which is more likely, given the overwhelming numbers for the population as a whole: that a person who "enjoys unpainted models" is a genuine extreme outlier, or that they are using their supposed "enjoyment" as nothing more than a self-serving defense of that precious 10 VP they don't want to lose. You and I both know which one it is.

It's definitely a "genuine opinion" to prefer unpainted models to "cardboard tokens and chits". And it's also entirely possible to prefer painted models but still find unpainted models aesthetically appealing, but only less so, and not enough to make up for some people's dislike of painting.

And the ones who seem the most worried about those "precious 10VP" are the ones who are getting them, not losing them.

If I had to guess I imagine it would be because of the insecure drooling neckbeards who try to pressure and gatekeep them into partaking in a part of the hobby they don't enjoy.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
If I had to guess I imagine it would be because of the insecure drooling neckbeards who try to pressure and gatekeep them into partaking in a part of the hobby they don't enjoy.

Hey VladimirHerzog, going to complain about this one too?

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
what hyperbolic claim?

The claim that it's more than just one person posting stupid stuff about "painting incels" and such. OP's poll is obviously terrible but that's one person. Over and over again you, and people like you, keep insisting that polite disagreement or mild criticism are an inexcusable attack and invent your own straw man comments about "laziness" or "get out of the hobby" to justify your accusations. It's happening here, it's happening in the other threads, and it happens every time this subject comes up. You just can't tolerate the idea that someone would disagree with allowing unpainted models.

It's been more than one person tho... Across more than one post.

Oh and even better, its been this thread's vreator with the poll options and YOU, telling us that we hobby wrong. Mind your own fething business, paint your dudes as you want but let others play as they wish without giving them gak.


Oh and for the record, i paint my armies, i just have enough empathy to understand its not for everyone


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
If I had to guess I imagine it would be because of the insecure drooling neckbeards who try to pressure and gatekeep them into partaking in a part of the hobby they don't enjoy.

Hey VladimirHerzog, going to complain about this one too?

Namecalling is unwarranted but holy gak are you making it tempting.

(Notice how he didnt criticise you based on your painting tho. He criticized you based on your attitude)

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Mind your own fething business, paint your dudes as you want but let others play as they wish without giving them gak.

People can play however they want, I'm not stopping them. But if you think people have a right to never face even mild criticism for their choices you're wrong, especially when that criticism is limited to clearly titled threads about the topic.

Namecalling is unwarranted but holy gak are you making it tempting.

(Notice how he didnt criticise you based on your painting tho. He criticized you based on your attitude)

Ah, there's the weaseling I expected from you. "Namecalling is bad, but really it's completely understandable" because it's someone on your side, gotcha.

I can honestly say that I have never in my 20+ years of playing this game ever met anyone who had such a strong opinion on only playing against fully painted armies. You can be as passive aggressive and judgemental as you want, but I want to play my new model before it is painted then I will. If you are the kind of person that gets so put off by someone playing models that aren't painted than I have no problem never playing a game with you.

Luckily, as I said, I have never actually met someone with such an extreme opinion.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I can honestly say that I have never in my 20+ years of playing this game ever met anyone who had such a strong opinion on only playing against fully painted armies. You can be as passive aggressive and judgemental as you want, but I want to play my new model before it is painted then I will. If you are the kind of person that gets so put off by someone playing models that aren't painted than I have no problem never playing a game with you.

Luckily, as I said, I have never actually met someone with such an extreme opinion.

Most things that are strongly worded/opinion on Dakka never happens on the table.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I can honestly say that I have never in my 20+ years of playing this game ever met anyone who had such a strong opinion on only playing against fully painted armies. You can be as passive aggressive and judgemental as you want, but I want to play my new model before it is painted then I will. If you are the kind of person that gets so put off by someone playing models that aren't painted than I have no problem never playing a game with you.

Luckily, as I said, I have never actually met someone with such an extreme opinion.

Most things that are strongly worded/opinion on Dakka never happens on the table.

Nah I've seen similar attitudes. It's why, despite how over the top some of the stories are. I believe Karol and support them for the most part.

What the hell is a "genuine opinion"?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What the hell is a "genuine opinion"?

It seems like a pretty simple two-word phrase, what is unclear about it to you?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Only for your hypothetical "virtually everyone". Whose opinions only matter for their models. Not anyone else's.

And, again, the point is that it isn't a genuine opinion. Which is more likely, given the overwhelming numbers for the population as a whole: that a person who "enjoys unpainted models" is a genuine extreme outlier, or that they are using their supposed "enjoyment" as nothing more than a self-serving defense of that precious 10 VP they don't want to lose. You and I both know which one it is.

It's definitely a "genuine opinion" to prefer unpainted models to "cardboard tokens and chits". And it's also entirely possible to prefer painted models but still find unpainted models aesthetically appealing, but only less so, and not enough to make up for some people's dislike of painting.

And the ones who seem the most worried about those "precious 10VP" are the ones who are getting them, not losing them.

Sure, unpainted models are superior aesthetically to cardboard tokens and chips... But probably cost 30 or 40 times more.

When people reject comissioning painting because it will "double" the price tag on their minis I assume that perhaps reducing the cost by at least 90% would have some appeal for them.

Im sure if cardboard and tokens were given a "official status" by GW for 40k games... Many in the unpainted crowd(perhaps even those that are passionate modelers but hate painting) would quickly put on ebay or the like their grey plastic mountains.

They would obviously not recognised it. Since being told that you do the bare minimum for participating in the hobby (IE, to be tolerated by fellow gamers, TOs and LGS) surely hurts their feelings. Thats why they believe Im a troll, because if Im not their POV is compromised

OMG, the pedantry on display in this thread is insane.

I've only ever met one person whom actively didn't paint their minis and the reason not was fething childish.

Everyone else has ranged from I'm in school/work 2 jobs etc to I have better things to do than paint. All are valid and none more/less moral than the other.

I have many hobbies that do not include miniatures or wargaming. I wouldn't consider someone who races their stock civic less of a racer than I, I just choose to go a little but further in my speed addiction. I wouldn't consider someone who only plays golf on city courses less...
Same as painting, the only time I'd question it is if you're just building gray Tamiya Racecar model kits...

Im certainly not debating the morality of painting or not someones "property" miniatures.

In isolation thats hardly a moral issue.

Im only worried about the motivations of the "dont force me to paint my minis crowd".

Being self delusional, trolling or being very competitive dont imply a moral fault of any sort... Its certainly not like cheating or insulting someone.

Subfactions have obliterated the hobby. The simple selection of a color now has real game consequences for the collector, and meta chasers are more enabled than ever because of it. I've seen equal parts grey tide and all black "stealth" armies explicitly because of the meta chasing.

Vatsetis wrote:
Im certainly not debating the morality of painting or not someones "property" miniatures.

No, just their intelligence (eg. "They are confused or don't fully understand the 40K hobby.").

The only people who are confused and don't get it are those that assume there is only one way to interact with this hobby.

Hecaton wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:


Its very dificult for me to see a sensible reason why anyone will actively oppose painting..

Thats because no one does. They just don't want to or aren't able to do it.

If someone prefers PL and can't be asked to paint their minis, though, they're probably too casual for me to get a good game against them.

What the feth does PL have to do with this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Vatsetis and Shas'O, since your insisting on continuing this farce let me ask a question.

Say you have a community like mine where the number of players is very small (4 of us would be considered Veterans with big collections, another 5 have 40k models but not big collections or attend games so infrequently that they don't know the game as well as the other 4) and games are infrequent (like once every two months) because a lot of the players have work and very young children so free time is scarce.

If I held your opinions in my circumstances would you paint the models of players who don't have the time to play free of charge in order to improve your own enjoyment of the game since apparently painted models are such a major part of the game for you?

Vatsetis wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Well some people collect old functional cars and dont know how to drive them and actually pay others to drive them so they dont break down.

Some people eat a lot of food but dont digest them and rather vomit it.

Some people drink alcohol in unhealthy cuantities far beyond the point it might provide them some pleasure.

Surely if someone point out to this people that they were not ussing their cars or food or drinks in a sensible manner they would be pissed off and cry some nonsense about their "personal freedom and property". :(

wtf kinda point are you even trying to make here?

Its pretty clear... That cars are ment to be driven, food is ment to be diggested, alcohol should be consumed with moderation and 40k miniatures are designed with painting in mind... And that the people that dont grasp this very simple facts are somewhat non functional.

That has to be among the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum.

Your poll describes absolutely nobody an is pure bait. Absolutely nobody is "vehemently against painting" some people just don't have the time or don't want to invest the time. Some just don't want to do it and are happy with their grey models which they have built. And guess what? That's totally fine because it's their property and they can do with it as they please.

The only thing anyone objects to here is if people who don't want to paint get called lazy, trolls or non-functional. That's it, how is that so difficult to grasp?

 Sim-Life wrote:
If I held your opinions in my circumstances would you paint the models of players who don't have the time to play free of charge in order to improve your own enjoyment of the game since apparently painted models are such a major part of the game for you?

If my options are "spend a ton of time painting someone else's army for free" or "play with unpainted models" then I'd choose the third option: stop playing with that group.

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
If I held your opinions in my circumstances would you paint the models of players who don't have the time to play free of charge in order to improve your own enjoyment of the game since apparently painted models are such a major part of the game for you?

If my options are "spend a ton of time painting someone else's army for free" or "play with unpainted models" then I'd choose the third option: stop playing with that group.

So you'd just not play at all in my case then?

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
If I held your opinions in my circumstances would you paint the models of players who don't have the time to play free of charge in order to improve your own enjoyment of the game since apparently painted models are such a major part of the game for you?

If my options are "spend a ton of time painting someone else's army for free" or "play with unpainted models" then I'd choose the third option: stop playing with that group.

So you'd just not play at all in my case then?

Yep. I do not enjoy games with unpainted models, there is no realistic chance of them ever painting theirs, and I don't value 40k enough to spend that much time and energy on painting someone else's stuff for free.

Unironically the first option.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:


Its very dificult for me to see a sensible reason why anyone will actively oppose painting..

Thats because no one does. They just don't want to or aren't able to do it.

If someone prefers PL and can't be asked to paint their minis, though, they're probably too casual for me to get a good game against them.

What the feth does PL have to do with this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Vatsetis and Shas'O, since your insisting on continuing this farce let me ask a question.

Say you have a community like mine where the number of players is very small (4 of us would be considered Veterans with big collections, another 5 have 40k models but not big collections or attend games so infrequently that they don't know the game as well as the other 4) and games are infrequent (like once every two months) because a lot of the players have work and very young children so free time is scarce.

If I held your opinions in my circumstances would you paint the models of players who don't have the time to play free of charge in order to improve your own enjoyment of the game since apparently painted models are such a major part of the game for you?

Is this an actual question? Seems like one that will be said in a fake court like the one depicted in SEASON 5 of "The Good Wife".

Can you rephrase the question so that I could answer it in a sensible manner, please.

Hecaton wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Bruh, I fething suck at painting. No amount of contrast is going to help with that.

Everyone sucks at painting at first. I *still* suck at painting, but I enjoy painting my minis. I don't stress out about playing with unpainted stuff though.

Same here, I prefer playing against painted armies but I've got plenty of friends with mostly grey. I am by no means a great painter so I wound up getting some contrast pots a while back since I really enjoyed the output when it came to painting infantry.

Tiberias wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Well some people collect old functional cars and dont know how to drive them and actually pay others to drive them so they dont break down.

Some people eat a lot of food but dont digest them and rather vomit it.

Some people drink alcohol in unhealthy cuantities far beyond the point it might provide them some pleasure.

Surely if someone point out to this people that they were not ussing their cars or food or drinks in a sensible manner they would be pissed off and cry some nonsense about their "personal freedom and property". :(

wtf kinda point are you even trying to make here?

Its pretty clear... That cars are ment to be driven, food is ment to be diggested, alcohol should be consumed with moderation and 40k miniatures are designed with painting in mind... And that the people that dont grasp this very simple facts are somewhat non functional.

That has to be among the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum.

Your poll describes absolutely nobody an is pure bait. Absolutely nobody is "vehemently against painting" some people just don't have the time or don't want to invest the time. Some just don't want to do it and are happy with their grey models which they have built. And guess what? That's totally fine because it's their property and they can do with it as they please.

The only thing anyone objects to here is if people who don't want to paint get called lazy, trolls or non-functional. That's it, how is that so difficult to grasp?

Being unable to do something as intended/design is the definition of non-functional.

EG: being unable to drink alcohol without getting drunk.

There might be very good reasons for not being able to paint your armies but its certainly not something to be proud of. Its a non functional element of your 40K hobby that needs to be solved not denied.

Saying "my personal life is very hard, therefore I need to get drunk to go along, respect my personal choices" is not very sensible, but neither is saying "I have nor spare time, nor money, therefore I cannot afford to paint my 40K minis, respect my personal choices".

Vatsetis wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:


Its very dificult for me to see a sensible reason why anyone will actively oppose painting..

Thats because no one does. They just don't want to or aren't able to do it.

If someone prefers PL and can't be asked to paint their minis, though, they're probably too casual for me to get a good game against them.

What the feth does PL have to do with this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Vatsetis and Shas'O, since your insisting on continuing this farce let me ask a question.

Say you have a community like mine where the number of players is very small (4 of us would be considered Veterans with big collections, another 5 have 40k models but not big collections or attend games so infrequently that they don't know the game as well as the other 4) and games are infrequent (like once every two months) because a lot of the players have work and very young children so free time is scarce.

If I held your opinions in my circumstances would you paint the models of players who don't have the time to play free of charge in order to improve your own enjoyment of the game since apparently painted models are such a major part of the game for you?

Is this an actual question? Seems like one that will be said in a fake court like the one depicted in SEASON 5 of "The Good Wife".

Can you rephrase the question so that I could answer it in a sensible manner, please.

How is it not a sensible question? It's my current situation and group dynamic. We're a small group, some vets, some beginners. We don't get to play often and they all have family and work commitments that limit their free time. There are no other groups in the area because we live in a rural area and already for most people its around a 20 min drive to another players house on average. So why not answer the question instead of pretending it's a trap? Are you in the same boat as Shas'O where you'd throw out the baby with the bathwater or would you take on the burden of meeting your own standards in order to play a game?

Well, it all really depends on some sort of social transaction... Obviously not money... If I gave my time to others for no compensation other than "meeting my own standards" I will became a slave of shorts.

If I indeed had the time to paint 10+ armies, and all my fellow gamers did indeed appreciate my paint jobs, and if they recognize and aknoledge my effort, perhaps inviting me to a drink or reparing my car or house if I needed to and they had the time and ability to do so... I would most probably do it.

Is this answer satisfactory for the public prosecutor?

Vatsetis wrote:

Being unable to do something as intended/design is the definition of non-functional.

EG: being unable to drink alcohol without getting drunk.

There might be very good reasons for not being able to paint your armies but its certainly not something to be proud of. Its a non functional element of your 40K hobby that needs to be solved not denied.

Saying "my personal life is very hard, therefore I need to get drunk to go along, respect my personal choices" is not very sensible, but neither is saying "I have nor spare time, nor money, therefore I cannot afford to paint my 40K minis, respect my personal choices".

You're very bad at analogies. Like, spectacularly, unimaginably terrible. Please stop using them to attempt to illustrate your points if you want to be taken seriously (though that ship sailed a long time ago anyway).

You also don't understand what non-functional means, or you're looking for some other word/phrase instead. Something not working as designed doesn't necessarily make it non-functional, though it can.

The reality is, the aesthetic part of the game exists on a spectrum with cardboard tokens and bits of paper on one end up to Golden Daemon standard armies at the other. People's preferences for their own models and for their own enjoyment against other people can have minimum standards at any point on that spectrum. That doesn't mean they don't appreciate Golden Daemon standard paint jobs even if they don't demand that level of skill themselves. Additionally, the game rules require built miniatures due to TLoS, so there's a rules imperative to at least use assembled models, which makes that a reasonable minimum within the context of the game. If someone is happy using unpainted, assembled models there's no gotcha or contradiction if they also agree painted models can look more appealing. What they're saying in that case is there's a minimum threshold for their enjoyment that's lower than other people's, which is fine.

Vatsetis wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Well some people collect old functional cars and dont know how to drive them and actually pay others to drive them so they dont break down.

Some people eat a lot of food but dont digest them and rather vomit it.

Some people drink alcohol in unhealthy cuantities far beyond the point it might provide them some pleasure.

Surely if someone point out to this people that they were not ussing their cars or food or drinks in a sensible manner they would be pissed off and cry some nonsense about their "personal freedom and property". :(

wtf kinda point are you even trying to make here?

Its pretty clear... That cars are ment to be driven, food is ment to be diggested, alcohol should be consumed with moderation and 40k miniatures are designed with painting in mind... And that the people that dont grasp this very simple facts are somewhat non functional.

That has to be among the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum.

Your poll describes absolutely nobody an is pure bait. Absolutely nobody is "vehemently against painting" some people just don't have the time or don't want to invest the time. Some just don't want to do it and are happy with their grey models which they have built. And guess what? That's totally fine because it's their property and they can do with it as they please.

The only thing anyone objects to here is if people who don't want to paint get called lazy, trolls or non-functional. That's it, how is that so difficult to grasp?

Being unable to do something as intended/design is the definition of non-functional.

EG: being unable to drink alcohol without getting drunk.

There might be very good reasons for not being able to paint your armies but its certainly not something to be proud of. Its a non functional element of your 40K hobby that needs to be solved not denied.

Saying "my personal life is very hard, therefore I need to get drunk to go along, respect my personal choices" is not very sensible, but neither is saying "I have nor spare time, nor money, therefore I cannot afford to paint my 40K minis, respect my personal choices".

Jesus fething christ your analogies are so bad it hurts. You did not just equate having alcohol problems in your personal life with not being able/not wanting to paint minis....I mean what the hell is wrong with you? One can lead to severe health problems and even endanger other people, the other has no effect on anyone except some people who don't like looking at unpainted minis. These two things are not in the same ballpark...they are not even in the same galaxy. Geez what a gak comparison.

For the last time, people not being able/not wanting to paint their minis is their business. You can judge them/not like them all you want, the only thing anyone is objecting to is if you call them lazy, trolls or non-functioning...online or not. How is that so difficult to grasp for you?