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More like circumstancial in that case. 😁

Anyway, I am excited to see most players bring more marines and those marines play a bigger role in many games. To each their own.

 westiebestie wrote:
More like circumstancial in that case. 😁

Anyway, I am excited to see most players bring more marines and those marines play a bigger role in many games. To each their own.

Infantry are great, just don't see them as being rare outside of like a bike list maybe. To each their own indeed.

Would you say this list has enough infantry?

AT and Necro are the best games GW makes right now. Necro can get too snowbally but you can usually houserule that out.

Toofast wrote:
AT and Necro are the best games GW makes right now. Necro can get too snowbally but you can usually houserule that out.

Is necro like one game or it depends on the book? There's no like "current all release match play" outside of campaigns is there? AT's matched play seems rarely used, and the cards are cool but a million variables so scoring is all over the place.

Necro isn't really meant to be played in a 1 game, pickup game format. It really only shines as a game in campaigns where you level up and buy equipment for your dudes to make them yours. Nobody really uses the cards for AT because they printed like 100 of each set so they went OOS immediately and never returned. It's a much better system for pickup games, the campaigns are just narrative missions with special rules for the battlefield based on what type of planet you're fighting on.

Toofast wrote:
Necro isn't really meant to be played in a 1 game, pickup game format. It really only shines as a game in campaigns where you level up and buy equipment for your dudes to make them yours. Nobody really uses the cards for AT because they printed like 100 of each set so they went OOS immediately and never returned. It's a much better system for pickup games, the campaigns are just narrative missions with special rules for the battlefield based on what type of planet you're fighting on.

Yeah that's my only frustration with necromunda, the models and setting are awesome.

For AT, I meant the open engine war cards, which are neat resource but really random.

Toofast wrote:
AT and Necro are the best games GW makes right now. Necro can get too snowbally but you can usually houserule that out.

By that definition everything is great as you can use house rules in any instance.

It's just a shame that kill team was all weird and rigid this time in terms of teams, necromunda has so many cool parts/accesories. even if a lot are keyed, still really cool from a wysiwyg perspective, just wish it had like a straight up match play list for evert faction with all the gear/point costs. The campaign stuff im sure is awesome but its a big ask for a lot of players who can only play sporadically. That's one thing 30k has going for it, you can play like once a month or every other month and it still works pretty well for 1 off match play.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
HH2.0 gives me big BIG AoS 1.0 vibes, which with the rumor that it was written by the AoS team kinda makes sense.

It may have been, the team lead taking credit is this guy https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6912815019076255744/

"Incredibly proud to have developed the new edition of the Horus Heresy game system, and congrats to all the team at Games Workshop who worked alongside me on this. What a fantastic announce trailer!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

It feels like AoS 1.0 in the sense that, the structure of a good game is there, its just a skeleton right now and has no meat on its bones, and needs some fixing.

Why did consumers just have to pay for this if 1.0 just needed some fixing and instead we got this... which needs fixing?




I dunno, personally progressive scoring/kill points just isn't good. It's not good for balance and it isn't a good indication of anything.

3-5 objectives, allowed to be placed by both players, with really basic secondaries that come nowhere close in vp count just works best imo. Basically old school crusade, 3-5 objectives, works really well.

Ahhh so the same guy who wrote book 9 crusade.... it's all starting to make sense now.

The one thing I am thankful for is knowing GW's track record at least they finished 1.0 off and didn't leave it 3/4 done like they have done to many systems before this. Now you can see the quality drops in books 7-9 but hey with some house rules you can fix it up to be playable at least.

I don't have book 9 yet, is it really as bad as it is said ?

It's a pretty decent book. Far better written than book 7 too..

Its kinda small though since they cut out dark mechanicum (which still didnt get rules in the mech release?!?) And the campaign system in it was the most lackluster. Background and legion rules were extensive, full of options and fun.

Ahhh yes I remember now, that was a big thing at the time of its release, he was kind of small Indeed

Yeah about 2/3rds the thickness of the other blackbooks.

 Crablezworth wrote:
It's just a shame that kill team was all weird and rigid this time in terms of teams, necromunda has so many cool parts/accesories. even if a lot are keyed, still really cool from a wysiwyg perspective, just wish it had like a straight up match play list for evert faction with all the gear/point costs. The campaign stuff im sure is awesome but its a big ask for a lot of players who can only play sporadically. That's one thing 30k has going for it, you can play like once a month or every other month and it still works pretty well for 1 off match play.

I've had some of the most fun in wargaming in Necromunda campaigns but they always fizzle out after 5-6 rounds. It's never worth it for the people who get stomped and fall behind to keep playing until the end. I always use Van Saar with plasma, ocular implants, and a couple ambots to infil on objectives along with the big FW mech when I get the credits for it. Playing against tooled up corpse grinder/ogre teams is a blast. I wish they would give some of the other teams some stuff to compete with those builds. I feel bad when playing against palanites...

30k is perfect for the older, once a month gamer like me. There aren't 700 stratagems to remember like 40k, and most guys are S/T4, armor values of tanks are easy to remember because I've been playing since 3rd, so that will be my main game. I'm just waiting for weapon packs release and FW models to be in stock.

Toofast wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
It's just a shame that kill team was all weird and rigid this time in terms of teams, necromunda has so many cool parts/accesories. even if a lot are keyed, still really cool from a wysiwyg perspective, just wish it had like a straight up match play list for evert faction with all the gear/point costs. The campaign stuff im sure is awesome but its a big ask for a lot of players who can only play sporadically. That's one thing 30k has going for it, you can play like once a month or every other month and it still works pretty well for 1 off match play.

I've had some of the most fun in wargaming in Necromunda campaigns but they always fizzle out after 5-6 rounds. It's never worth it for the people who get stomped and fall behind to keep playing until the end. I always use Van Saar with plasma, ocular implants, and a couple ambots to infil on objectives along with the big FW mech when I get the credits for it. Playing against tooled up corpse grinder/ogre teams is a blast. I wish they would give some of the other teams some stuff to compete with those builds. I feel bad when playing against palanites...

30k is perfect for the older, once a month gamer like me. There aren't 700 stratagems to remember like 40k, and most guys are S/T4, armor values of tanks are easy to remember because I've been playing since 3rd, so that will be my main game. I'm just waiting for weapon packs release and FW models to be in stock.

Ya I feel like the campaign stuff would be awesome if it was possible but I feel like outside of very popular clubs or tight friend groups it's very hard to make it work for too long. As you said after 5-6 rounds its fizzles out.

Couldn't agree more on 30k and not having to remember 700 strats, way easier to just pickup and play.

OP

Three games in and I am definitely thinking about list building very differently:

- Probably taking all tanks out. I think they’re that overpriced and wet noodle.

- More Contemptor and terminators. Don’t bother with Spartans, don’t need them.

- Get heavy weapon squads in.

- Make sure everything has intercept to prevent you being alpha striked.

- Don’t think I’ll bother with artillery. Real shame as I have quad guns for fists and a Bombard for my Death Guard but they don’t serve any function beyond being overpriced bricks.

main change locally since HH2 dropped is...

people now will play HH, I tried to get people interested in V1 about four years ago and got nowhere

but now even the guy who hates 40k plays it, small games, few fancy units but he does play it

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
OP

Three games in and I am definitely thinking about list building very differently:

- Probably taking all tanks out. I think they’re that overpriced and wet noodle.

- More Contemptor and terminators. Don’t bother with Spartans, don’t need them.

- Get heavy weapon squads in.

- Make sure everything has intercept to prevent you being alpha striked.

- Don’t think I’ll bother with artillery. Real shame as I have quad guns for fists and a Bombard for my Death Guard but they don’t serve any function beyond being overpriced bricks.

Yeah that all sounds about right, shame for combined arms and diversity of unit types, just wait till you see that javelins can't even move over friendly or enemy models... le sigh

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
OP

Three games in and I am definitely thinking about list building very differently:

- Probably taking all tanks out. I think they’re that overpriced and wet noodle.

- More Contemptor and terminators. Don’t bother with Spartans, don’t need them.

- Get heavy weapon squads in.

- Make sure everything has intercept to prevent you being alpha striked.

- Don’t think I’ll bother with artillery. Real shame as I have quad guns for fists and a Bombard for my Death Guard but they don’t serve any function beyond being overpriced bricks.

Yeah that all sounds about right, shame for combined arms and diversity of unit types, just wait till you see that javelins can't even move over friendly or enemy models... le sigh

I know, to be honest I had such a bad time that I am not all that keen to play again. It really took the wind out my sails having spent all that time getting a Kratos and 20 Mark VI painted just for them to get deleted. It’s really silly that you’re asked to roll and work out hundreds of dice just to maybe clip a wound whilst your units get deleted in an alpha strike. With you losing tanks in your turn against an army that doesn’t have a single dedicated AT gun. Just exploiting the rend rule to hull point tanks. No I really wasn’t a fan.

Genuinely, I don’t know what the Devs thought. I was going to get a second Kratos and three Predators but have zero reason to now. There’s other things I’d rather be painting and I know I won’t use them in games.

Out of interest, what was your list and what was your opponents list?

 Snrub wrote:
Out of interest, what was your list and what was your opponents list?

Sons of Horus

Abaddon
10 Justarean with 6 axes and 4 chainfist. 2 multi melta

2 squads of 15 tactical marines with power fist sergeants

10 man Rotor gun squad in rhino

10 man Veteran squad in rhino with power fist serg and chain bayonet bolters

Gatling Sicaran with bolter sponsons

Sicaran with las sponsons

Kratos with battle cannon, extra shells and a flare shield. Had all the lascannons with a multi melta

All the vehicles had search lights


Night Lords - Bit unsure on some of the details

Praetor with ten man command squad with jump packs. Various close combat weapons. With apothecary.

Twenty assault marines with apothecary

Ten raptors with apothecary

Leviathan with siege cannon and fist

Xiphon

Ten recon marines with the Vigilator

Tactical squad in back line


Mission was objective either end but this had no relevance on the battle and was ignored.

So I shot my army at the recon squad which did nothing. The recon marines took out the Gatling tank. Leviathan half the hull points of the Kratos with shooting. Then an alpha strike killed a rhino, the Sicaran and the Kratos. Abaddon landed after this and killed the assault squad. All the rest of the army bounced off the apothecary units with their bolters/rotor guns despite everything being able to fury and rapid fire. Raptors and command squad then slaughtered the tacticals/support squad/rhino. Abaddon killed the command squad, the praetor and the leviathan dread.

So basically I had one unit doing stuff and the rest was being forced to throw point masses of dice to watch armour/apothecary saves get passed. It just was not a very fun game as there’s not a lot you can do if somebody dumps 40 marines in front of you and all your shooting bounces off them.

Abaddon sounds like a beast, but what a shame for your tanks. Like, the recon squad insta killing a AV13 tanks shouldn't be possible, what a shame

 godardc wrote:
Abaddon sounds like a beast, but what a shame for your tanks. Like, the recon squad insta killing a AV13 tanks shouldn't be possible, what a shame

Aren’t their weapons S4?

So you’d need a 6 on die and a 3 on the Rending d3 to glance it.

 godardc wrote:
Abaddon sounds like a beast, but what a shame for your tanks. Like, the recon squad insta killing a AV13 tanks shouldn't be possible, what a shame

Yeah snipers are strength 5 now and Night Lords get plus 1 strength when they “outnumber” a tank. So it’s str 6 rending at that point. If you roll a 6 to trigger rend you then get a D3 so it’s quite easy to hull point vehicles even at the front armour.

Abaddon did have ten terminators with him. But yeah, I really wasn’t fussed by that point because I wanted it to be more about the tanks.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Mission was objective either end but this had no relevance on the battle and was ignored.

Not saying this would fix an imbalanced matchup/edition but I find 3-5 objectives works best for balance, Not saying it'd fix the game you had one iota but, at least on the 4 or 5 objective games, board control can still make a difference. Like even if you get smashed hard by deep strke/alpha strike with a the right terrain density in terms of los you might be able to still queak out a tie or close loss. It seems most of the missions in 2.0 aren't much better than the ones in 1.0


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Abaddon sounds like a beast, but what a shame for your tanks. Like, the recon squad insta killing a AV13 tanks shouldn't be possible, what a shame

Yeah snipers are strength 5 now and Night Lords get plus 1 strength when they “outnumber” a tank. So it’s str 6 rending at that point. If you roll a 6 to trigger rend you then get a D3 so it’s quite easy to hull point vehicles even at the front armour.

Abaddon did have ten terminators with him. But yeah, I really wasn’t fussed by that point because I wanted it to be more about the tanks.

Ugh, add to that they nerfed so many of the vehicles it just seems like they don't know what they're doing anymore. Dual kheres dreads were and are pretty damn broken in 1,0, but at least you can kill them with a lot of stuff, possible to 1 shot them.

Missed the Vigilator.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Abaddon sounds like a beast, but what a shame for your tanks. Like, the recon squad insta killing a AV13 tanks shouldn't be possible, what a shame

Yeah snipers are strength 5 now and Night Lords get plus 1 strength when they “outnumber” a tank. So it’s str 6 rending at that point. If you roll a 6 to trigger rend you then get a D3 so it’s quite easy to hull point vehicles even at the front armour.

Abaddon did have ten terminators with him. But yeah, I really wasn’t fussed by that point because I wanted it to be more about the tanks.

It's +1 to wound/penetrate armor, not +1S. I only point it out because if S5 can't wound it normally it doesn't bump the attack up to be able to wound it.

 godardc wrote:
Abaddon sounds like a beast, but what a shame for your tanks. Like, the recon squad insta killing a AV13 tanks shouldn't be possible, what a shame

No, it shouldn't be. And it would be an easy fix. Just replace Rending(5) with Breaching(5). That would be equally useful for popping infantry characters (the thing that sniper rifles are supposed to do) while preventing them from punching heavy armour. Why they gave them Rending instead of Breaching is beyond me.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Abaddon sounds like a beast, but what a shame for your tanks. Like, the recon squad insta killing a AV13 tanks shouldn't be possible, what a shame

No, it shouldn't be. And it would be an easy fix. Just replace Rending(5) with Breaching(5). That would be equally useful for popping infantry characters (the thing that sniper rifles are supposed to do) while preventing them from punching heavy armour. Why they gave them Rending instead of Breaching is beyond me.

IIRC the intent waaaay back was them sniping through gaps to hit things like the engine, fuel tanks, sensitive equipment or through vision slits.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Abaddon sounds like a beast, but what a shame for your tanks. Like, the recon squad insta killing a AV13 tanks shouldn't be possible, what a shame

No, it shouldn't be. And it would be an easy fix. Just replace Rending(5) with Breaching(5). That would be equally useful for popping infantry characters (the thing that sniper rifles are supposed to do) while preventing them from punching heavy armour. Why they gave them Rending instead of Breaching is beyond me.

IIRC the intent waaaay back was them sniping through gaps to hit things like the engine, fuel tanks, sensitive equipment or through vision slits.

I think you're confusing sniper rifles with melee against vehicles. Sniper rifles used to be S(X), with (X) always equalling the toughness of the target (which meant that they always wounded on a 4+). For Armour Penetration rolls, they got a single D6, which meant that they couldn't do much against vehicles.