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**Strg Alt**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Snrub wrote:
Out of interest, what was your list and what was your opponents list?

Sons of Horus

Abaddon
10 Justarean with 6 axes and 4 chainfist. 2 multi melta

2 squads of 15 tactical marines with power fist sergeants

10 man Rotor gun squad in rhino

10 man Veteran squad in rhino with power fist serg and chain bayonet bolters

Gatling Sicaran with bolter sponsons

Sicaran with las sponsons

Kratos with battle cannon, extra shells and a flare shield. Had all the lascannons with a multi melta

All the vehicles had search lights

Night Lords - Bit unsure on some of the details

Praetor with ten man command squad with jump packs. Various close combat weapons. With apothecary.

Twenty assault marines with apothecary

Ten raptors with apothecary

Leviathan with siege cannon and fist

Xiphon

Ten recon marines with the Vigilator

Tactical squad in back line

Mission was objective either end but this had no relevance on the battle and was ignored.

So I shot my army at the recon squad which did nothing. The recon marines took out the Gatling tank. Leviathan half the hull points of the Kratos with shooting. Then an alpha strike killed a rhino, the Sicaran and the Kratos. Abaddon landed after this and killed the assault squad. All the rest of the army bounced off the apothecary units with their bolters/rotor guns despite everything being able to fury and rapid fire. Raptors and command squad then slaughtered the tacticals/support squad/rhino. Abaddon killed the command squad, the praetor and the leviathan dread.

So basically I had one unit doing stuff and the rest was being forced to throw point masses of dice to watch armour/apothecary saves get passed. It just was not a very fun game as there’s not a lot you can do if somebody dumps 40 marines in front of you and all your shooting bounces off them.

Maybe it´s time to go back to 2nd in regards to Apothecary work. Back then your medic could help a SINGLE, adjacent model to it´s feet again (regaining one wound). Helping everybody, everywhere all the time doesn´t sound like a learned profession but rather like magic.

**ClockworkZion**

Considering Asartes physiology he might not be yelling them but rather checking their life signs and then yelling at them to not be so dramatic and that they're fine.

**Crablezworth**

Strg Alt wrote:

Maybe it´s time to go back to 2nd in regards to Apothecary work. Back then your medic could help a SINGLE, adjacent model to it´s feet again (regaining one wound). Helping everybody, everywhere all the time doesn´t sound like a learned profession but rather like magic.

It gets a bit silly with a giant blob ya.

**SirDonlad**

i liked that notion ash came up with against a militia list which had robot medicae orderlies; he made a joke about bear mace formula painkillers.

One of the models was basicly a barrel with legs and a sensor array so i can totally see a robot being nothing but a drum of bear-mace morphine and an attachable locomotor array and sprinkler setup.

Broken leg? coated in foamed morphine.
blast damage? coated in foamed morphine.
severed limbs? coated in foamed morphine.
head missing? coated in foamed morphine.
assaulting the enemy? coated in foamed morphine.
papercut? coated in foamed morphine.
bug in your eye? coated in foamed morphine.
a hair in your food? coated in foamed morphine.
bad case of 'the mondays'? coated in foamed morphine.

"Is there anything this robot can't coat in foamed morphine?!?" - Levvy Seargent H.Conrad

**Snrub**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Night Lords - Bit unsure on some of the details

Praetor with ten man command squad with jump packs. Various close combat weapons. With apothecary.

Now while i'm sure it wasn't the make or break of the game, this unit I think is illegal. Command squads can only have 9 bodies (+ the praetor/centurion) and can't have an apothecary attached due to the fact that it contains an Independent character (The praetor).

**Racerguy180**

If it was a Primus medicae but highly doubt it...

**ClockworkZion**

Does the IC need to deploy with their command squad? Because if not you can have an apothecary as part of the squad and attach the IC after.

**Snrub**

Command Squad has the Retinue rule.

Retinue states

Retinue wrote:A legion Command Squad... [snip] ...may only be selected as part of a detachment that includes at least one model with the Master of the Legion special rule. A unit selected in this manner is considered a "retinue squad" and the model with the Master of the Legion special rule is referred to as the retinue squads leader for the purposes of this special rule. [snip]
The retinue squad does not use up a Force Org slot and is considered part of the same unit as the model selected as its leader. The retinue squad must be deployed with the model selected as it's Leader deployed as part of the unit and the Leader may not voluntarily leave the retinue squad during play. [snip]

So yeah, a Primus Medicae could join the squad, but a regular apoth can not. Also means you can't attach a techmarine and use them as a suicide-melta squad.

**Rihgu**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Does the IC need to deploy with their command squad? Because if not you can have an apothecary as part of the squad and attach the IC after.

Their command squad yes, they count as part of it. If it's just a veteran squad, no, they deploy into it.

**ClockworkZion**

Snrub wrote:
Command Squad has the Retinue rule.

Retinue states

Retinue wrote:A legion Command Squad... [snip] ...may only be selected as part of a detachment that includes at least one model with the Master of the Legion special rule. A unit selected in this manner is considered a "retinue squad" and the model with the Master of the Legion special rule is referred to as the retinue squads leader for the purposes of this special rule. [snip]
The retinue squad does not use up a Force Org slot and is considered part of the same unit as the model selected as its leader. The retinue squad must be deployed with the model selected as it's Leader deployed as part of the unit and the Leader may not voluntarily leave the retinue squad during play. [snip]

So yeah, a Primus Medicae could join the squad, but a regular apoth can not. Also means you can't attach a techmarine and use them as a suicide-melta squad.

Thanks, I was at work at the time and couldn't check it so I wasn't 100% sure on the situation.

**cody.d.**

Okay, so the meta seems to be termies and dreadnaughts, Leviathans being fairly popular too.

Meltas can take care of both the former, but sort of struggle against a leviathan. Do peeps have any tips for dealing with the big chunky murder dreads? Outside of dozen's of lascannons I suppose. Haywire seems nice, but it's tricky to bring enough to really chew through a dreads wounds, let along several of the buggers.

**Rihgu**

I am honestly surprised that you're finding melta fine for normal dreads but not for leviathans.

It's fine for neither, in my experience.

Melee the leviathans with other dreads? Seems to be the go-to for deal with dreads.

**cody.d.**

I mean, 3s to hit, 3s to wound then 5++ to get through. Pushing that up to 4s to found makes it feel a little meh though.

But yeah, throwing brutal (3) at a dread is good for getting rid of the blasted things. Especially as 3rd legion where I get to strike first on the charge. Though my main opponent does run UM so it hurts when he has the combat logos on and you need 5s to hit.

In theory thunder hammers on cataphracti would be okay, use the 4++ to take the hits well enough then hit back with brutal (2) wounds on the invul.

But not many weapon rules work well against dreads. Spam Rending maybe? But then you're fishing for 6s.

**Snrub**

At the moment there's no real foolproof way of removing dreads. Other Dreads is the easiest way with the brutal (3), but as it stands quantity seems to be the prevailing means of dealing with them. Throw enough plasma/rending/thunderhammer dice and they do go down.

It's hard to even tarpit them effectively what with them being so damn effective in melee, even with only one fist.

Honestly, they need to be bumped up by about 20-30 points and either not be immune to instant death or have their S/T/I all dropped by 1. Taking double wounds from anti-tank weapons would be a solution too (lascannons/meltas/etc).
If you knew all it'd take was a plucky sergeant with a melta bomb, then they wouldn't be nearly as scary in melee as they are. Still effective, yes, but at least manageable.
Alternatively, if they were Initiative 3, then you'd at least have a whole initiative round to damage them before they struck back.

**Strg Alt**

Snrub wrote:
At the moment there's no real foolproof way of removing dreads. Other Dreads is the easiest way with the brutal (3), but as it stands quantity seems to be the prevailing means of dealing with them. Throw enough plasma/rending/thunderhammer dice and they do go down.

It's hard to even tarpit them effectively what with them being so damn effective in melee, even with only one fist.

Honestly, they need to be bumped up by about 20-30 points and either not be immune to instant death or have their S/T/I all dropped by 1. Taking double wounds from anti-tank weapons would be a solution too (lascannons/meltas/etc).
If you knew all it'd take was a plucky sergeant with a melta bomb, then they wouldn't be nearly as scary in melee as they are. Still effective, yes, but at least manageable.
Alternatively, if they were Initiative 3, then you'd at least have a whole initiative round to damage them before they struck back.

Lasannons are not vastly more expensive in relation to rocket launchers. So ten dudes with lascannons coupled with a consul which buffs their accuracy would be a solution.

**Gadzilla666**

Just let Sunder and Ordnance weapons reroll failed wounds against dreadnoughts etc, and let all Armourbane weapons cause ID, same as melta bombs. If you're guys can get within 6" of that dread with their meltaguns, let it eat D3 damage a pop.

**brumbaer**

Regarding Recon Squad against Vehicles.
The +1 (Night Lords) only applies if the Recon Squad outnumbers the target. A vehicle always counts as 10 models and a Recon Squad can not have more than 10 models, so it will not apply. Even if it would do so, the trigger value of special rules is always the unmodified dice roll. So rending would still apply on a 5+, not a 4+.
10 shots hitting at 3s are 6.6, Armour is 13 strength is 5, so you will have to get an 8 for a glance and a 9 for a pen. So you need a 5 and a 3 or a 6 and a 2 or 3.
A wound roll of 5 will be rolled on 1.1 shots and a third of those will be followed by a 3. That's 0.367 glances
A 6 will be rolled on 1.1 shots as well. Wether you get a 2 or 3 in the second roll doesn't matter (regarding kills), because the original shot has no DS 1 or 2 (rending does not change AP against vehicles).
So it's .7333. Add them together you will get an statistical 1.1 wounds on the Sicaran.
Inflicting 4 wounds might happen, but seems to be unlikely. And the Sicaran still has the option to evade. For me it sounds more likely that rules were applied wrongly or the dice rolling was really lucks than that the Sicaran could be expected to be killed by a Recon Squad.

**Platuan4th**

brumbaer wrote:
Regarding Recon Squad against Vehicles.
The +1 (Night Lords) only applies if the Recon Squad outnumbers the target. A vehicle always counts as 10 models and a Recon Squad can not have more than 10 models, so it will not apply.

I posted the same thing, then edited when I noticed the list specifies "with the Vigilator", meaning the squad was at 11 models, not 10.

**Gadzilla666**

And Evade is out, because I'll 100% guarantee that those Recons had Preysight. Still had to be rolling pretty hot though.

**brumbaer**

Sorry haven't seen that the calculation was done before.

Anyway.

Preysight cancels night fight, but I assumed hitting on 3s already.

If you get the Bonus +1 for outnumbering.

if you roll a 4 it turns to a 5, but you do not get Rend. So you will have strength 10, which doesn't do anything.

The 5 turns to 6 and you get rend, thats 0.73 wounds.
The 6 turns to 7 and you get rend, that's 1.1 Wounds.
So you get an average of 1.83. Sorry that's not correct because 11 man shooting. It would be 1.83*1.1 = 2.01. So it would be 2 in average.

85 points + 5 * 12 + 10 * 10 = 245 Points for the Squad

Vigilator 105 points. 60 + 35 + 10.

So 350 points killing 190 points, thanks to good rolling. That's not so off, as the op made it sound.

And vigilator and squad could easily be more expensive (the sicaran as well).

Please note I agree that tanks die too easily and should be able to fire back in the same way as dreadnoughts (no preference which way, just the same) and treating squadrons and talons in the same way. Plus the usual dreadnought rant.

**cody.d.**

I think tanks get a lot of power from how their weapons interact. Usually you have to fire all your weapons at a single target, but can fire defensive at the closest infantry and sponsons at a different target providing they can't see the tanks main target.

I decided to get a bit cheeky and use a divination librarian to give my kratos precision shots 5+ lets you shoot a bunch of volkite at up to 3 units. (assuming measuring to the closest isn't done for each individual weapon, which would feel a little too gamey) I was able to pop some apothecaries and sergeants who didn't happen to be wearing artificer armour from different squads at once.

But yes, something needs to be changed with dreads. Im not sure what though, maybe a -1 to stats when below a certain threshhold? But at that point they're just regular 40K rules huh? I kinda wish they were just vehicles like in the old days.

**boyd**

Maybe give Dreadnoughts and Automata their own explosion chart. The only way you can get an explodes result is via AP1 or AP2. The rest can destroy weapons, slow movement, do extra hull points, etc. Normal 6 does an extra hull point.

**Otto Weston**

I've just bought my Liber mechanicum to start converting over to HH2. My army doesn't quite work at the moment though and wondering about if I can get some help to fix it.

I used to take an Arvus Lighter and a Vengeance Weapons battery but these are not options in our book - how could I take them without using allies?

**Bobug**

Check the PDF update for mechanicum, main rulebook and legiones astartes. I believe the rules for the arvus are in the mechanicum pdf and the weapon battery are in one of those 3 (they might possibly also be in the main rulebook under another name)

**morganfreeman**

boyd wrote:
Maybe give Dreadnoughts and Automata their own explosion chart. The only way you can get an explodes result is via AP1 or AP2. The rest can destroy weapons, slow movement, do extra hull points, etc. Normal 6 does an extra hull point.

I think the most elegant solution would be to give them a 3+ save.

Dreads are supposed to be extremely tough, but this is well represented by their high toughness, but their armor is overkill. As it stands dreads are functionally more resilient to AP weapons than vehicles, because the combination of huge wound pool and invul save means that they don't care about lascannons. The problem is that they're also virtually immune to small and medium arms fire via toughness and their 2+ save. Given a dreadnaught is more articulate than a land raider they'd surely have more fiddly little bits to land a lucky shot on, so a 3+ would go a long way towards making them more balanced and also being fluff friendly rather than just an arbitrary nerf.

Alternatively I think a reduction in wounds (probably cutting them by 40-50%, rounded up) would work, as would buff ID (make it an automatic 3 wounds, as opposed to d3 wounds). But I also feel these are less elegant and more heavy-handed solutions.

**Crablezworth**

morganfreeman wrote:
boyd wrote:
Maybe give Dreadnoughts and Automata their own explosion chart. The only way you can get an explodes result is via AP1 or AP2. The rest can destroy weapons, slow movement, do extra hull points, etc. Normal 6 does an extra hull point.

I think the most elegant solution would be to give them a 3+ save.

Dreads are supposed to be extremely tough, but this is well represented by their high toughness, but their armor is overkill. As it stands dreads are functionally more resilient to AP weapons than vehicles, because the combination of huge wound pool and invul save means that they don't care about lascannons. The problem is that they're also virtually immune to small and medium arms fire via toughness and their 2+ save. Given a dreadnaught is more articulate than a land raider they'd surely have more fiddly little bits to land a lucky shot on, so a 3+ would go a long way towards making them more balanced and also being fluff friendly rather than just an arbitrary nerf.

Alternatively I think a reduction in wounds (probably cutting them by 40-50%, rounded up) would work, as would buff ID (make it an automatic 3 wounds, as opposed to d3 wounds). But I also feel these are less elegant and more heavy-handed solutions.

They should have just remained vehicles.

**Keel**

morganfreeman wrote:
boyd wrote:
Maybe give Dreadnoughts and Automata their own explosion chart. The only way you can get an explodes result is via AP1 or AP2. The rest can destroy weapons, slow movement, do extra hull points, etc. Normal 6 does an extra hull point.

I think the most elegant solution would be to give them a 3+ save.

Fluff-wise I don't think it makes sense to have Dreadnoughts get 3+ as long as Terminators have 2+.

**SirDonlad**

Crablezworth wrote:

They should have just remained vehicles.

Basicly this.

If i was trying to make dread and troop armies a thing again here is how i would do it instead of making dreads MCs

If a force doesn't use a rite of war they get 2 benefits
1. if the compulsory troop slots are filled with full strength tactical squads then further troop slots filled with tactical squads are half price excluding any purchased transport vehicles
2. dreadnoughts can join an infantry unit of 6 models or greater - if unit cohesion lines can be drawn around a joined dreadnoughts base without touching it; that dreadnought will gain a 4+cover save. (the dread can be targeted seperately from the unit it has joined)

so no rhino-spam but a solid reason to take multiple tac units again, and ensuring they will be pocked with dreadnoughts too

**Arbitrator**

Anyone who played against Mech or Daemons last edition would tell you why making dreads into MCs was a terrible idea, but it seems they missed the memo. Making contemptors 3+ would help reduce the AP2 arms race the game has already become.

**Bobug**

Imagine thinking tactical squads aren't good