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 Wyldhunt wrote:
What is it about the language that makes is so that it has to be used immediately?

Because "Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next." says you can use the strat to let your unit fight after an enemy unit is finished fighting. It does not say that your unit can fight inbetween this, so it cant. It needs to be immediately after the enemy unit fights.

Hah. After I try to clear up the arguments presented I see 6 posts by people I have blocked. ^_^ I will tune in later to see if the OP ever gets an awnser.

Personally I think Aftersong stumpeled upon a good reading of the rule. You can activate twice in sucksesson. It is just that nobody (that I know of) has played it like that before. It might be a RAW VS RAI but since we do not k ow the intend we can never know.

Good on you Aftersong.

No, for the same reason that you can't use a command re-roll after you have rolled other dice - you have passed the trigger point of "after X".

Consider the two texts

Command Re-roll wrote:Use this Stratagem after you have made a hit roll, a wound roll, a damage roll, a saving throw, an Advance roll, a charge roll, a Psychic test, a Deny the Witch test or you have rolled the dice to determine the number of attacks made by a weapon. Re-roll that roll, test or saving throw.

Counter Offensive wrote:Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

They both can be used after something happens. The question that is thrown out is "does it have to be immediately after?", which the answer is yes. Let's demonstrate why,

Your opponent hits your big model with a Lascannon, manages to wound. You roll a save and fail it. Your model has 6 wounds left and is unlikely to die from the D6, so you chose not to re-roll the save.

Your opponent rolls a 6 for damage. Even though it's after you have made a saving throw you can't now decide to re-roll the save. Why? Because you passed the trigger point of "after X".

The exact same happens for counter-offensive. The trigger point is after the enemy unit has fought, not after also fighting with one of your units.

 p5freak wrote:
No one wants use CO to fight with a unit twice. And there is no requirement to fight with a friendly unit immediately after an enemy unit has fought.

Sure there is. Wyldhunt already quoted it from p.228:

"...the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it..." (emphasis added)

The stratagem has no language indicating this requirement is overridden, so it isn't. Any counterpoint to this is necessarily couched in "but it doesn't say I can't"s, and we know where that well-trodden road leads.

Exactly.

There's no override of the alternating and so, guess what, you don't get two in a row.

 Niiai wrote:
Hah. After I try to clear up the arguments presented I see 6 posts by people I have blocked. ^_^ I will tune in later to see if the OP ever gets an awnser.

Personally I think Aftersong stumpeled upon a good reading of the rule. You can activate twice in sucksesson. It is just that nobody (that I know of) has played it like that before. It might be a RAW VS RAI but since we do not k ow the intend we can never know.

Good on you Aftersong.

It’s a wrong reading of the rule, as several people have poked holes in it. The OP has an answer which is “nope”. If people are trying to staple rules together and read rules in bad faith to engineer their preferred result… well.

Catulle wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
No one wants use CO to fight with a unit twice. And there is no requirement to fight with a friendly unit immediately after an enemy unit has fought.

Sure there is. Wyldhunt already quoted it from p.228:

"...the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it..." (emphasis added)

The stratagem has no language indicating this requirement is overridden, so it isn't. Any counterpoint to this is necessarily couched in "but it doesn't say I can't"s, and we know where that well-trodden road leads.

If I take what you are saying literally then if someone charged two units (A and B) into two separate units (C and D) the game would break because the attacker would be making 2 unit attacks in a row without alternating them with the defender. It's obvious that this isn't the case. I think everyone can agree that CO interupts the normal order of picking which unit attacks (or else the strat would have no reason to exist). So, since a lot of people are insisting that CO be used immediately after an opponent attacks what about this order of combat (assuming unit D above had fight first). Normally the order would be A D B C. So what if the defender plays CO after A attacks and uses C? The order is disrupted but that shouldn't preclude D from fighting after that since that would have been the next unit to fight in the normal sequence.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Catulle wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
No one wants use CO to fight with a unit twice. And there is no requirement to fight with a friendly unit immediately after an enemy unit has fought.

Sure there is. Wyldhunt already quoted it from p.228:

"...the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it..." (emphasis added)

The stratagem has no language indicating this requirement is overridden, so it isn't. Any counterpoint to this is necessarily couched in "but it doesn't say I can't"s, and we know where that well-trodden road leads.

If I take what you are saying literally then if someone charged two units (A and B) into two separate units (C and D) the game would break because the attacker would be making 2 unit attacks in a row without alternating them with the defender. It's obvious that this isn't the case. I think everyone can agree that CO interupts the normal order of picking which unit attacks (or else the strat would have no reason to exist). So, since a lot of people are insisting that CO be used immediately after an opponent attacks what about this order of combat (assuming unit D above had fight first). Normally the order would be A D B C. So what if the defender plays CO after A attacks and uses C? The order is disrupted but that shouldn't preclude D from fighting after that since that would have been the next unit to fight in the normal sequence.

There are rules for charging units though. So the game does not break.

There is nothing in the Counter offensive rules that allow a unit to fight twice, or for two units from the same army to fight twice in a row.

JakeSiren posted why you can't use Counter offensive after a friendly unit fights. It is the same reason that you can't use a command re-roll after you have rolled other dice - you have passed the trigger point of "after X".

Must alternate ELIGIBLE units. The opponent has no eligible units.

DeathReaper- I am not suggesting that a unit fight twice. I am saying that counter offensive acts as an interruption of the normal sequence of who fights when. After it is over then the sequence resumes. Charging A, CO unit C, First strike unit D and, finally charging unit B. Normal order would be A,D,B then C.

Nosferatu- I have no idea what your point is. Obviously CO makes what is usually an inelegible unit in a specific instance (a non-charging unit attacking before a charging unit) into allowing it to become eligible to attack before other, normally, eligible units.

No one, that I know of, would say that it would be wrong for a non-charging unit to fight between two enemy charging units by using the CO strategy. Nor should there be any question of a strike first unit fighting between two charging units. I don't see where opting to use a strat is the same as selecting an eligible unit. The use of the strat takes you outside the normal order of operations in regards to which unit can fight when.

JakeSiren wrote:No, for the same reason that you can't use a command re-roll after you have rolled other dice - you have passed the trigger point of "after X".

Consider the two texts

Command Re-roll wrote:Use this Stratagem after you have made a hit roll, a wound roll, a damage roll, a saving throw, an Advance roll, a charge roll, a Psychic test, a Deny the Witch test or you have rolled the dice to determine the number of attacks made by a weapon. Re-roll that roll, test or saving throw.

Counter Offensive wrote:Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

They both can be used after something happens. The question that is thrown out is "does it have to be immediately after?", which the answer is yes. Let's demonstrate why,

Your opponent hits your big model with a Lascannon, manages to wound. You roll a save and fail it. Your model has 6 wounds left and is unlikely to die from the D6, so you chose not to re-roll the save.

Your opponent rolls a 6 for damage. Even though it's after you have made a saving throw you can't now decide to re-roll the save. Why? Because you passed the trigger point of "after X".

The exact same happens for counter-offensive. The trigger point is after the enemy unit has fought, not after also fighting with one of your units.

So let me preface by reiterating that I agree you can't use CO to fight with two friendly units back-to-back. Let me also say that I agree that GW's use of the word "after" as seen in this thread is probably meant to mean, "Immediately after." That said, I'm going to nitpick your post. I'm pretty sure the reason you can't use command re-rolls in the way you describe is because it's understood that the result of that roll has already been resolved. It's not just because the word "after" is involved. Weirdly-specific example: the Walker of Many Paths warlord trait says:

Once per turn, you can re-roll one hit roll, one wound roll, or one damage roll made for this warlord.

No use of the word "after," but we still understand that I can't reroll a to-hit roll after we've moved on to a later stage of the Attack process. And RAW, once your opponent's first charger fights, everything else that occurs after that point happens "after an enemy unit fights". I'm just splitting hairs for the sake of the discussion though.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Must alternate ELIGIBLE units. The opponent has no eligible units.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:DeathReaper- I am not suggesting that a unit fight twice. I am saying that counter offensive acts as an interruption of the normal sequence of who fights when. After it is over then the sequence resumes. Charging A, CO unit C, First strike unit D and, finally charging unit B. Normal order would be A,D,B then C.

Nosferatu- I have no idea what your point is. Obviously CO makes what is usually an inelegible unit in a specific instance (a non-charging unit attacking before a charging unit) into allowing it to become eligible to attack before other, normally, eligible units.

No one, that I know of, would say that it would be wrong for a non-charging unit to fight between two enemy charging units by using the CO strategy. Nor should there be any question of a strike first unit fighting between two charging units. I don't see where opting to use a strat is the same as selecting an eligible unit. The use of the strat takes you outside the normal order of operations in regards to which unit can fight when.

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, I posted the definition for "eligible" on page 1:

Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it (see right). An eligible unit is one that is within ENgagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn...

...If all of one player's eligible units have fought, the opposing player can then fight with their remaining eligible units, one at a time.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
DeathReaper- I am not suggesting that a unit fight twice.

I don't think this was ever in question. I do not remember anyone of these posts saying that a single unit gets to fight twice.

The OP wanted to use Counter offensive to fight with two friendly units back-to-back. This is not possible.

 DeathReaper wrote:
There is nothing in the Counter offensive rules that allow a unit to fight twice, or for two units from the same army to fight twice in a row.

Then why did you even write the first part of the quoted sentence?

I did get the impression that you thought Leo wanted to fight with a given unit twice, DeathReaper.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
There is nothing in the Counter offensive rules that allow a unit to fight twice, or for two units from the same army to fight twice in a row.

Then why did you even write the first part of the quoted sentence?

Because I was just being thorough, in case anyone was on that tangent, and I had missed it.

Please use the principle of cherible listening. Assume your debate opponent does not mean something completely whack.

 Niiai wrote:
Please use the principle of cherible listening. Assume your debate opponent does not mean something completely whack.

Oh sweet summer child. That simply doesn’t work in YMDC, where several folk post nothing but “whack” for attention.

If you attack with a unit, you cannot use the stratagem because now you’d be using the stratagem after a friendly unit has fought, no longer after an enemy unit has fought. It’s that simple. There are a lot of stratagems that happen after something, and in every situation it is implied immediately after. This is because everything in the game is happening in a sequence.

If your opponent charged with three of their units, all three of those units fight before any of your units get to fight.

You can interrupt one of those fights with the stratagem allowing you to select a unit to fight amongst units that have "fight first" eligibilities.