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2022/08/18 21:40:59
Subject: Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
I just got done watching a recently streaming mainstream movie based on a super successful video game - Uncharted.
Spoiler:
OK, not being entirely familiar with the games, I was perplexed at the movie plot: Two keys to a treasure, one for the crew, one for the captain, so neither could double-cross the other, as both keys are needed to get to the treasure. The two keys are used (somewhat haphazardly) to get to the treasure hidden in an old church beneath a city in eastern Spain. SURPRISE, the gold is not there, but there is a map with hints as to the gold's whereabouts.
PLOT HOLE: If there is a map, someone drew it, knows the real location of the gold and could steal it. And, extra surprise plot hole, the ships were sailed to this point by the crew (obviously) so every swinging, freakin' person on the ships knew where the final location was, so how did this ever stop ANYONE from the crew to the captain from going to get the treasure, telling there descendants where the treasure was, blah, blah.
Did I entirely miss something major??
Any other movies with plot holes so big you scratch your head thinking, how did someone involved with the movie not say, "Hey guys, hate to tell you, but..."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/18 21:41:10
FWIW, back then it would be VERY hard to find that place again without a map. Even if you had been there yourself, its not like you could just go back. These trips were the space voyages of their time and even if you told your kids and they told their children... they're not finding it without a map. The ocean is just too big and most of its coastlines lack any real landmarks. It's remarkably easy to lose something in it all.
2022/08/19 04:28:56
Subject: Re:Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
Pre-cogs see Tom Cruise murder a guy, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the plot apart from the pre-cogs seeing him do the murder that would lead him to the guy who he is supposed to murder.
2022/08/19 04:48:02
Subject: Re:Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
I'll pick a movie that came up due to a more recent successful release:
The Predator
At some point you have to wonder if anyone on the production thought to themselves: "Should we be doing a movie about Predators coming to Earth to hunt Super-Autism?"
It's one of those things that even typing it makes it sound like I'm making it up, like it's some kind of 4Chan meme. But that's what the movie was.
Why???
Gert wrote: They are the curse laid upon this Earth by the channel called CinemaSins.
CinemaCins is a spiteful and joyless place that does nothing but nitpick without any wit or nuance.
Pre-cogs see Tom Cruise murder a guy, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the plot apart from the pre-cogs seeing him do the murder that would lead him to the guy who he is supposed to murder.
The whole concept of that is silly. I mean, “we’ve had foresight you’re going to do a Bad Murder”. So….lock me up for a bit so I can’t do it. Sorted.
And why go on the run? It’s been a while since I watched it, but if I’m right in thinking they normally wait until the last second to make their arrest? I mean….why?
And make a run for it in the first instance?
Stupid, stupidfilm.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also…Hollow Man
Not the premise itself as such. More how Mr Bacon’s character goes completely pants on head tonto ape bonkers mental in….about three seconds flat. A flaw in the execution rather than a flaw in the concept I suppose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/19 11:38:15
2022/08/19 12:42:53
Subject: Re:Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
1) As example Gangs of New York had 8 or so hours cut from the original produced material. Ergo many films produce an insane amount of extra content that eventually gets cut from the final release; and that's the stuff that they recorded not the stuff that got cut elsewhere. Scenes fail because they prove technically too challenging; or they run out of time or whatever. Basically a LOT of content gets left out. This leaves the film open to setting up scenes that rely on an earlier scene to flesh them out and, for whatever reason, that earlier scene is never included.
This is why Directors Cuts can sometimes make more sense than the original (Eg Alien 3) because they put those cut scenes back. This is especially the case when its the purchasing cinema group cutting content purely to fit a time slot (Sergio Leone had huge issues with this and its one reason he didn't direct more films)
2) Too many chefs. Films aren't like books where its one person in control. Often there are loads of people pulling a film in all kinds of directions. From writers, directors, producers, investors - even high profile actors can push certain scenes to change or be adjusted. Sometimes these are things done in the heat of the moment - a scene changed for various reasons which then falls apart as other parts of the film which relied on that scene are not re-shot or adjusted to compensate for the subtle shifts in story elements.
3) Out of order. Films are often recorded totally out of order. As a result its very easy to get slip ups because they aren't producing things in a linear fashion to start with. An important earlier scene might not be set to be filmed until late in the shooting schedual; however once they get to it various reasons might result in it changing or never being produced - run out of money; change in story; feedback from investor etc....
Suffice to say that films are huge complicated things and that sometimes plot holes develop because of the nature of how they are produced and the huge number of constraints and issues that arise.
OF course a good director, writer and producer will spot these issues as they arise and work toward resolving them so that the final film DOES make sense and does have the proper flow of story etc...
Sometimes the issue is that the original writing was just too big; sometimes they run out budget; sometimes they have so many "men in suits" inputting various "target market/polled studies/test audience" inputs that it tears itself apart as the film tries to appease too many or change its fundamentals to focus on a different consumer segment or such
Pre-cogs see Tom Cruise murder a guy, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the plot apart from the pre-cogs seeing him do the murder that would lead him to the guy who he is supposed to murder.
The whole concept of that is silly. I mean, “we’ve had foresight you’re going to do a Bad Murder”. So….lock me up for a bit so I can’t do it. Sorted.
And why go on the run? It’s been a while since I watched it, but if I’m right in thinking they normally wait until the last second to make their arrest? I mean….why?
And make a run for it in the first instance?
Normally the pre-cogs only gave them warning with short timeframes when the murder was impulsive. Eg the start of the film the first murder is someone killing their wife when they find them in bed with someone else. It's in the moment impulsion so there was no huge build up. So everything was very last moment.
He goes on the run because his pre-cog report was, in theory, more planned and had more leading up too it and thus there was more time.
The whole premise is that the murders seen by the pre-cogs are "perfect" evidence. Therefore if you're caught you're caught and locked up instantly. He goes on the run because he's 100% sure in himself that he won't kill that person and that, as a result, the precog murder is in some way being cheated.
2022/08/19 15:23:50
Subject: Re:Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
1) As example Gangs of New York had 8 or so hours cut from the original produced material. Ergo many films produce an insane amount of extra content that eventually gets cut from the final release; and that's the stuff that they recorded not the stuff that got cut elsewhere. Scenes fail because they prove technically too challenging; or they run out of time or whatever. Basically a LOT of content gets left out. This leaves the film open to setting up scenes that rely on an earlier scene to flesh them out and, for whatever reason, that earlier scene is never included.
This is why Directors Cuts can sometimes make more sense than the original (Eg Alien 3) because they put those cut scenes back. This is especially the case when its the purchasing cinema group cutting content purely to fit a time slot (Sergio Leone had huge issues with this and its one reason he didn't direct more films)
2) Too many chefs. Films aren't like books where its one person in control. Often there are loads of people pulling a film in all kinds of directions. From writers, directors, producers, investors - even high profile actors can push certain scenes to change or be adjusted. Sometimes these are things done in the heat of the moment - a scene changed for various reasons which then falls apart as other parts of the film which relied on that scene are not re-shot or adjusted to compensate for the subtle shifts in story elements.
3) Out of order. Films are often recorded totally out of order. As a result its very easy to get slip ups because they aren't producing things in a linear fashion to start with. An important earlier scene might not be set to be filmed until late in the shooting schedual; however once they get to it various reasons might result in it changing or never being produced - run out of money; change in story; feedback from investor etc....
Suffice to say that films are huge complicated things and that sometimes plot holes develop because of the nature of how they are produced and the huge number of constraints and issues that arise.
OF course a good director, writer and producer will spot these issues as they arise and work toward resolving them so that the final film DOES make sense and does have the proper flow of story etc...
Sometimes the issue is that the original writing was just too big; sometimes they run out budget; sometimes they have so many "men in suits" inputting various "target market/polled studies/test audience" inputs that it tears itself apart as the film tries to appease too many or change its fundamentals to focus on a different consumer segment or such
Pre-cogs see Tom Cruise murder a guy, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the plot apart from the pre-cogs seeing him do the murder that would lead him to the guy who he is supposed to murder.
The whole concept of that is silly. I mean, “we’ve had foresight you’re going to do a Bad Murder”. So….lock me up for a bit so I can’t do it. Sorted.
And why go on the run? It’s been a while since I watched it, but if I’m right in thinking they normally wait until the last second to make their arrest? I mean….why?
And make a run for it in the first instance?
Normally the pre-cogs only gave them warning with short timeframes when the murder was impulsive. Eg the start of the film the first murder is someone killing their wife when they find them in bed with someone else. It's in the moment impulsion so there was no huge build up. So everything was very last moment.
He goes on the run because his pre-cog report was, in theory, more planned and had more leading up too it and thus there was more time.
The whole premise is that the murders seen by the pre-cogs are "perfect" evidence. Therefore if you're caught you're caught and locked up instantly. He goes on the run because he's 100% sure in himself that he won't kill that person and that, as a result, the precog murder is in some way being cheated.
The problem still is that there is nothing in the movie that sets up how Tom Cruise is supposed ever find out about the guy who he will supposedly kill apart from the pre-cogs telling him. It's a giant gaping hole in the plot.
2022/08/19 15:28:13
Subject: Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
It's been ages since I last saw it, but wasn't that a huge part of the film - him trying to get to the pre-cog to tell him or see if there was more of the memory to give him a hint how he got there?
Human Centipede? I haven't seen it, but just the description and advertising visuals leads one to opine that some kind of self-censorship may have lead the world to being a slightly better place.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Pre-cogs see Tom Cruise murder a guy, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the plot apart from the pre-cogs seeing him do the murder that would lead him to the guy who he is supposed to murder.
The whole concept of that is silly. I mean, “we’ve had foresight you’re going to do a Bad Murder”. So….lock me up for a bit so I can’t do it. Sorted.
And why go on the run? It’s been a while since I watched it, but if I’m right in thinking they normally wait until the last second to make their arrest? I mean….why?
And make a run for it in the first instance?
Stupid, stupidfilm.
as others have pointed out, the pre-cogs basically pick up the moment the killed decides to commit murder. if its a long way in advance of the actual kill (ie premeditated), then they might give several days warning. For a crime of passion kill like we see in the action intro, its a much shorter window of only a few tens of minutes.
also, the system is based upon the premise that the pre-cogs are infallible in their visions, so being "seen" to murder someone is grounds, in and of itself, for conviction with the crime of murder. So, the second that ball, with cruises character's name on it, came down the line and someone else saw it, he'd be locked up, and thrown in that weird tube jail, no trial, no due process, etc. So, hes running because its not a case of "guys, you know me, i wouldn't do this, look i will sit in this chair until the timer runs out", because everyone, INCLUDING CRUISE, believes these pre-cogs are infallible.
The whole plot of the film is cruise trying to work out why he'd want to kill this guy hes never met, and discovering the titular "minority report", the ones that show that these murders are not 100% guaranteed to happen, and had been suppressed by the bosses to keep the system going.
and, as a side note, cruise walked into the fatal meeting with the intent to kill that man, believing him to be a paedophile that stole and killed his long dead son. Yes, he likely would never have found him without the pre-cog vision, but thats kind of a causality/pre-destination paradox thing, isnt it? knowing the future can lead you to actions that cause that future, even if you would never have got to that future otherwise.
anyway, for my response, i think the one that sticks in my head is star wars episode 9: dont get me wrong, 7 & 8 had problems, but they were managable, or at least tolerable. but it seems 9, what should have been the cumulation of a multi-year saga and worthy of great effort, was just.....kinda kicked out the door at breakneck pace, like it the bosses couldnt wait to be done with it. everything i have heard about its production says they were on a almost impossibly tight deadline at basically every step, with rushed, slapped together compromise on top of rushed, slapped together compromise.
Why didn't people at the top bite the bullet, push back release date 4-6 months, and give everyone the time they needed to actually do thier freaking jobs in? I honestly think it could have been salvaged, but clearly would take a more wilful director than JJ abrams to stand up for his creative work and creat a decent product.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/19 16:13:52
2022/08/19 16:59:04
Subject: Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
Well the main reason is.. lots of very successful films have terrible plots. There is little to be gained by having a great plot, it doesn't correlate to movie success.
2022/08/19 17:23:27
Subject: Re:Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
Pre-cogs see Tom Cruise murder a guy, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the plot apart from the pre-cogs seeing him do the murder that would lead him to the guy who he is supposed to murder.
The whole concept of that is silly. I mean, “we’ve had foresight you’re going to do a Bad Murder”. So….lock me up for a bit so I can’t do it. Sorted.
And why go on the run? It’s been a while since I watched it, but if I’m right in thinking they normally wait until the last second to make their arrest? I mean….why?
I've never seen it but Age of Adaline is borderline misogynistic. Woman granted immortality can't get over the fact that she can't find love and also in the story she has relations with a man and later his son. Ends up losing her immortality and spending her life with the son. Happily Ever After.
Because all women want is to find true love, right?
Also, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. Woohoo, he ages backwards. That's it, that's the story. It's #fantasy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/19 20:36:55
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
2022/08/19 20:42:55
Subject: Re:Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Every Star Wars production since Disney took over. How can a bunch of grown men not catch small child Leia? Oh because they're intentionally walking at half speed and bumping into each other/trees for no reason. I gave up on watching anything Star Wars, the cool moments aren't worth it considering how few and far between they are, and the amount of eye-rolling moments in between makes it unbearable. I get second hand embarrassment just trying to watch most of it. I knew it was going to happen as soon as the purchase by Disney was announced, but it doesn't make it any easier to swallow.
2022/08/19 20:54:49
Subject: Re:Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
Every Star Wars production since Disney took over. How can a bunch of grown men not catch small child Leia? Oh because they're intentionally walking at half speed and bumping into each other/trees for no reason. I gave up on watching anything Star Wars, the cool moments aren't worth it considering how few and far between they are, and the amount of eye-rolling moments in between makes it unbearable. I get second hand embarrassment just trying to watch most of it. I knew it was going to happen as soon as the purchase by Disney was announced, but it doesn't make it any easier to swallow.
Yup, this. Lord forbid you bring any attention to those issues either, apparently if those things bother you then you're automatically sexist, racist, or too nit picky.
2022/08/19 21:07:02
Subject: Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
Every Star Wars production since Disney took over. How can a bunch of grown men not catch small child Leia? Oh because they're intentionally walking at half speed and bumping into each other/trees for no reason. I gave up on watching anything Star Wars, the cool moments aren't worth it considering how few and far between they are, and the amount of eye-rolling moments in between makes it unbearable. I get second hand embarrassment just trying to watch most of it. I knew it was going to happen as soon as the purchase by Disney was announced, but it doesn't make it any easier to swallow.
Yup, this. Lord forbid you bring any attention to those issues either, apparently if those things bother you then you're automatically sexist, racist, or too nit picky.
Mhm. Nothing like shoring up a franchise than attacking your fanbase to cover up your incompetence and lack of planning in writing a coherent story.
Also, yeah SW had issues with stuff like the prequel trilogy being poorly executed, but at least that actually set up worldbuilding that was legitimately interesting and opened up new avenues to explore. The sequel trilogy not only acts as a narrative dead end, but it actively damages the entirety of both past trilogies on a scale far worse than what the prequels did when they first released. The sequel trilogy has a rehash movie, tries to subvert expectations (miserably) and then doubles back to a nonsensical ending that had no build up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/19 21:36:11
2022/08/19 22:55:41
Subject: Re:Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
trexmeyer wrote: Disney has made a lot of questionable storytelling choices for decades.
Disney had a strong opening with the first batch of a animated film's, then a few bad decades, then a few more strong films in the late 80s/early 90s, and since then they've been coasting on their prior success and leaching off Pixar's.
2022/08/20 18:40:21
Subject: Re:Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
I'm going to bring up two older movies because I happened to watch them recently: The Poseidon Adventure and Beyond the Poseidon Adventure.
In spite of the ill fitting title, The Poseidon Adventure is a pretty straightforward disaster movie that doesn't leave much to complain about. If there's anything, it's the characters' repeated failure to learn that unlike raptors, water doesn't know how to use door handles. And then unlearning it again after they finally figured it out.
With Beyond the Poseidon Adventure someone didn't just figure that the following movie should pick up where the other one left off, only a few hours after the rescue of the survivors, but that the new characters would find the Poseidon far more stable and a lot less flooded than in the first movie in order to make their treasure hunt in the bowels of the ship happen. As far as plot setups go, that's raises pretty significant questions as to how it's supposed to make sense. But then there's also a terrorist subplot where Baldilocks the Predictable Bad Guy goes after a shipment of guns and nuclear material and just so happens to have his own salvage operation sorted out and on standby. You know, in case of an unforeseen tsunami sinking the ship with his stuff, conveniently close to where he kept his gear and guys. Then of course there are the surviving passengers that couldn't be bothered to die or get rescued in the first movie.
There's a lot of "but why" going on with that movie.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
2022/08/22 13:11:07
Subject: Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
Lots of movies where you can scratch your head, "But, why?"
However, I just could not get over 'Uncharted' where the 2 key plot as it unfolded 100% made the story not make any sense and absolutely broken. No amount of explanation can defend or excuse it.
MDSW wrote: Lots of movies where you can scratch your head, "But, why?"
However, I just could not get over 'Uncharted' where the 2 key plot as it unfolded 100% made the story not make any sense and absolutely broken. No amount of explanation can defend or excuse it.
It made more sense than the flying pirate ships in the 3rd act....
2022/08/22 15:24:04
Subject: Horribly Bad Movie Plots - Why Didn't Someone Say "STOP"
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
