Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Legion is clearly a better ruleset than GW. Virtually all FFG games are tighter, better written, less ambiguous and faster playing than GW's core offerings.

However, that doesn't necessarily make them more appealing. FFGs wargames also tend to be card and chit heavy combo fests with echoes of CCG deck building. If list building and combo stacking is something you enjoy in GW, Legion does it better and with far less mess and confusion. If you find that sort of thing annoying, Legion may be nearly as unappealing as 40K.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

leopard wrote:


just it seemed to score a solid "meah", so stuck with other games, it just looked a bit average, a few trick mechanics to add flavour which is fine but nothing that stood out to say "if this wasn't star wars would people still think it was a great game?"

Feel like that isn't completely fair, I don't think Legion is a great game just because of "Star Wars", but it is a great game given a chance to grow because of "Star Wars".

Tons of other generic or new IP tabletop games flounder and die because unlike Legion, somebody walking past won't be able to stop and immediately recognize Vader, speeder bikes, and an AT-ST.

If Legion was a generic ruleset, I would still play it over 40k, I just know I would have a harder time people getting to play the game because it isn't something immediately recognizable from pop culture, or a 40k Space Marine.

agree it may not be totally fair, the guys who play it locally love it, mostly, some grumbling about the hero characters but then if any IP can get away with a named hero in a small fight its Star Wars. Its more just watching the game being played did nothing for me, the cards, counters etc put me off visually - the models look decent, tempted to get a few for roleplay games.

and yes totally agree some great games have failed because without the IP the background is nothing and people don't look, e.g. I think Gates of Antares is a decent game, but its very manufactured background is so bland its not worth looking at sadly.

if you enjoy it, play it, heck if it was a case locally of play this or play nothing I'd probably go for it, but as it is watching the game being played did nothing to make me want to play it. will give you its recognisable, very obviously Star Wars in a way a lot of other games lack, and painted up it looks good, just lacked the "OMG I have got to get this" that I got with Flames of War 2 when I first played that, or warhammer fantasy had..

as for 40k.. painted up etc it looks good, but that too these days is more or less a pass just for how it plays

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
It is a trend i see growing, avrage paint jobs or easy done paint jobs from low detail models are no longer generaly accepted or promoted and games that features models that cant easily achieve competition level paint jobs gets looked down on.

have seen that too, but this is more the instagram side of things, were everything has to be a perfect display model
this is also the part the hobby where price does not matter because you only need 1 model/unit for the perfect picture and never an army of all the same

I personally have no problem with PVC though I like HIPS more but have a dislike if people want to have display models as gaming pieces and only accept 1 quality for everything

yet for Legion itself, think this is less of a problem, and the 2 main reasons I think why it is slowly growing are:
it is hard to get the stuff you need and FFG/AMG has a terrible reputation regarding keeping things in stock, so people hesitate to start an army because they don't know if they ever have the chance to get the units they want (or need to make a viable list)

the other one is the IP, and this might be an unpopular opinion but the modern movies with all the controversial stuff around them, prevent people committing to a game just to avoid arguments (Legion is a great game, but had bad timing)

fist one is partly solved with the theme boxes and card packs, the 2nd just needs time and other SW movies/shows to come along

Is disgruntlement over the sequel trilogy really a concern in a game that notably skipped sequel releases? They started with Galactic Civil War, went to Clone Wars, passed the sequels right by and went straight to Mandalorian. What arguments are there to be avoided?

usually there are none, but avoid the game simple because it is Star Wars as any nerd talk about the IP sooner or later comes town to the sequels (no matter if those are present or not) hence some people are tired of that and stay away from the IP in general

the more time goes by, the less of an effect it has, but 1-2 years ago "it is a good game, but I am not in the mood for Star Wars" was an excuse to not start it

The goodwill of the Mandalorian seems to have done a good job of sidelining the sequel controversy. Granted, this wasn't the case when the game launched.

 LunarSol wrote:
The goodwill of the Mandalorian seems to have done a good job of sidelining the sequel controversy. Granted, this wasn't the case when the game launched.

Interesting to hear this. I wasn't paying much attention but as a potential gamer and SW fan, when the game was released, the sequels (which I wasn't terribly impressed with) had zero effect on my interest in the game. My reasons for not buying in were mostly based on Scale with some additional consideration around price and gamplay.

As I recall, the span of reactions to Legion that I personally saw were yay Star Wars, yay Empire, yay Rebels, I'd like Clones please. Anecdotal, I know, but I never witnessed any negative response to the sequel movies translate to Legion. Lucky me, I guess.

 Geifer wrote:
As I recall, the span of reactions to Legion that I personally saw were yay Star Wars, yay Empire, yay Rebels, I'd like Clones please. Anecdotal, I know, but I never witnessed any negative response to the sequel movies translate to Legion. Lucky me, I guess.

I haven't either. Some of the discussions that have come up at our local Legion post have been mostly asking "why?" since there is basically no different, other than the unique characters between Resistance troops and Rebels, and First Order Stormtroopers and Empire Stormtroopers. A lot more discussion has been about the interest in having High Republic units and characters in a future release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eilif wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
The goodwill of the Mandalorian seems to have done a good job of sidelining the sequel controversy. Granted, this wasn't the case when the game launched.

Interesting to hear this. I wasn't paying much attention but as a potential gamer and SW fan, when the game was released, the sequels (which I wasn't terribly impressed with) had zero effect on my interest in the game. My reasons for not buying in were mostly based on Scale with some additional consideration around price and gamplay.

Same for me. I didn't jump into it until I could get stuff like Shadow Collective and Clones, as I personally think Clone Wars Animated stuff is the best Star Wars content. So when a lot of those characters and units were avaliable to me, I was ready. The fact that the game was really, really good was just a bonus.

It probably helps that Mandalorian content can still nearly fit into 'Rebel' and Empire.

I recently got into a bit of a star wars kick again, and started assembling the Shadow Collective box.

1) Details on the models are rather soft and shallow. I keep being disappointed when I pick up a box because the cover models look neat, but the plastics end up lackluster. At least it's HIPS (because saying hard plastic apparently gets people to nerd rage). Compared to Dystopian Wars or GW, the difference in mini quality is stark. They'll probably look ok painted, but I enjoy the assembly and low quality plastics just ruins that.
2) I tried reading the rules . . . why do we need a page of tokens, bespoke rulers, and different dice for the same thing? It probably plays ok, but all this trash makes me uninterested in reading further. All the upgrade symbols are also annoying. Give us a proper orbat/codex, stop trying to sell us cardboard and bespoke everything.

If I do end up using the minis, I'll probably stick to OPR or something.

The biggest problem is finding players to play against, would like to play starwars legion or shatterpoint.
The mini's from shatterpoint are great they even have the details on it (dark maul his black and red tatoo's),
but they are to great to play in legion :(

 skeleton wrote:
The biggest problem is finding players to play against, would like to play starwars legion or shatterpoint.
The mini's from shatterpoint are great they even have the details on it (dark maul his black and red tatoo's),
but they are to great to play in legion :(

I'm also having trouble finding players. Where abouts in the Netherlands are you? I'm trying to stir up interest in my FLGS (Titan Games in Boxtel).

Irdiumstern wrote:
I recently got into a bit of a star wars kick again, and started assembling the Shadow Collective box.
...

....2) I tried reading the rules . . . why do we need a page of tokens, bespoke rulers, and different dice for the same thing? It probably plays ok, but all this trash makes me uninterested in reading further. All the upgrade symbols are also annoying. Give us a proper orbat/codex, stop trying to sell us cardboard and bespoke everything.

If I do end up using the minis, I'll probably stick to OPR or something.

Because it's way FFG and it's descendants have always created their bespoke gaming experiences. The advantage has generally been very well written unambiguous rules. The disadvantages you have noted.

I've generally been impressed enough with with the Legion figures I've seen. I've only purchased vehicles and a bunker so far for use with my 28mm stuff, but the detail is great on them.

Also, there's no shame in buying the figures you like (if you don't like official figs there are other options) and then playing with OPR. With the new community army lists there are allot of options for Star Wars armies.

 skeleton wrote:
The biggest problem is finding players to play against, would like to play starwars legion or shatterpoint.
The mini's from shatterpoint are great they even have the details on it (dark maul his black and red tatoo's),
but they are to great to play in legion :(

That is the whole point of the minis, they get the Legion players to buy the same models again, if shatter used the same scale as legion there would be no profit in the shatter game for AMG.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 skeleton wrote:
The biggest problem is finding players to play against, would like to play starwars legion or shatterpoint.
The mini's from shatterpoint are great they even have the details on it (dark maul his black and red tatoo's),
but they are to great to play in legion :(

That is the whole point of the minis, they get the Legion players to buy the same models again, if shatter used the same scale as legion there would be no profit in the shatter game for AMG.

The irony is that the SW universe is so vast and the characters so diverse (even versions of the same characters) that the scales could be compatible and they could still make a crapton of cash if they make the Shatterpoint characters unique versions. Even more cash could be made from conversion kits providing stats, cards, etc for each unit to make it usable in the other game. Further, they could have been doing this since Legion/IA.

Imagine if they had built a gaming dynasty based on the 40k/Killteam/SpaceHulk sort of model, instead they went for the quick cash grab. That the board, battle and skirmish games are in different scales is a huge missed opportunity for building a legacy stable of games that can compete long term with Games Workshop.

No sense in building a legacy when that legacy will someday be yanked away by Disney.

Also, fwiw, if Shatterpoint used Legion models it would be no where near as successful and more treated as a side game. No one wants to buy 7 stormtrooopers to use 2.

The increased scale also results in models that are just a lot nicer, which is important when there's only 8 of them.

Agreed. While I would have preferred a common scale, the reality is that it would have resulted in Shatterpoint being a side game that barely gets played ala Kill Team instead of a stand-alone independent game with its own distinct playerbase and community.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Agreed. While I would have preferred a common scale, the reality is that it would have resulted in Shatterpoint being a side game that barely gets played ala Kill Team instead of a stand-alone independent game with its own distinct playerbase and community.

So without a scale change, Shatterpoint would barely get played? I don't buy it. Lots of folks want a detailed skirmish game. If the rules are good and unique characters and character versions can be attached (Star wars fans are no strangers to collecting....). Shatterpoint could be successful without a scale change.

I get that the immediate cash grab with a new scale is tempting and they are running a business. However, the crossover potential of folks from other SW games buying other games' figures for their games would surely yield dividends. I can't be the only IA collector who rejected Legion for the scale change and I'm sure a fair number of Legion and Shatterpoint players won't be playing each other's games for the same reason. Neither have seems to have suffered too much, but that's got to have taken a bite out of the playerbase for each game.

You kind of just torpedoed your own argument. Star Wars fans are no strangers to collecting - ergo give them more stuff to collect by giving them products in different scales. It will pay dividends and you'll make money hand over fist by giving yourself an even larger pool of potential products to sell. to an even larger audience of people then limiting yourself to a single product line that has a more limited appeal.

Yeah, lots of folks want a detailed skirmish game - not everyone that wants a detailed skirmish game also wants to play a company scale battle game like Legion, and vice versa. Some people like larger miniatures, some people like smaller miniatures. There are different market segments with different interests and demands for different products, a one size fits all solution leaves a lot of people out in the cold and underserved.

The two games appeal to different audiences and markets. The overlap between them is probably smaller than you realize, as overwhelmingly people tend to stick to one game and not bother with the others. E.G. - know easily 50+ 40k players, I can count the number of them who have played any iteration of Kill Team on one hand. Most of them buy Kill Team branded products of course, but they aren't doing it for Kill Team, and they would still buy those products even if they weren't branded for Kill Team. While GW has been successful with that approach, there are certainly arguments to be made that Kill Teams relegation to a "secondary game" has strangled its potential and limited its audience, as there isn't a dedicated audience for it willing to invest into items which are only usable in a Kill Team setting. Contrast this with Necromunda, which has very limited crossover potential with 40k (as a result of it being a very slightly different scale, combined with there not being an obvious crossover into 40k usage ruleswise without significant conversion work and expense), but has its own dedicated community of players who are willing to invest heavily into terrain and models with limited/no crossover potential with 40k proper.

As for "rejecting" games, I know plenty of people that play Legion that would have never touched IA regardless of scale, because they just aren't interested in that type of game. Likewise I know plenty of people who jumped ship from IA the moment Legion became available, scale differences be damned. Likewise I know people who wouldn't touch Legion at all that jumped right into Shatterpoint, as well as plenty of people who were in Legion that jumped into Shatterpoint as well.

Its all meaningless anecdote, basically. Asmodee and AMG did their market research and figured out that they could make more money doing what they were doing than if they did it your way, and invested their time and resources appropriately. Simple as that.

adding to this, with 40k and KT, you have the KT players who are grumpy as the stuff they want to buy to play the game is sold out because the 40k players wants to models to add to their collection

Shatterpoint would have similar problems when people buy the boxes for the single hero to use in Legion and put the rest on the 2nd hand market while those that want to play the game have hard times to get those heroes (and specially in europe supply is always on the low end)

 kodos wrote:


Shatterpoint would have similar problems when people buy the boxes for the single hero to use in Legion and put the rest on the 2nd hand market while those that want to play the game have hard times to get those heroes (and specially in europe supply is always on the low end)

Selling more of a product is a problem? Trying to make a product less appealing is not a good solution to under-supply. Most companies would be happy if they were fighting more against under-supply than against lower demand.

if you are already not able to fulfil the demand for a product, making it appealing to a another group of people who just want the models but not playing the game is a disadvantage

everything being sold out but no one being able playing the game (because those who want to cannot buy it) is the worst situation for a new game as the playerbase and popularity cannot grow

chaos0xomega wrote:
I can count the number of them who have played any iteration of Kill Team on one hand. Most of them buy Kill Team branded products of course, but they aren't doing it for Kill Team, and they would still buy those products even if they weren't branded for Kill Team....

This is my core argument. Same scale, useable figures in both games equals more sales.

chaos0xomega wrote:
.
.... Contrast this with Necromunda, which has very limited crossover potential with 40k (as a result of it being a very slightly different scale, combined with there not being an obvious crossover into 40k usage ruleswise without significant conversion work and expense), but has its own dedicated community of players who are willing to invest heavily into terrain and models with limited/no crossover potential with 40k proper.

Necroumunda to 40k is a weak comparison to IA/Leg/Shat as there are very, very few miniatures that have utility in the larger 40k game. I still wish they hadn't changed the scale but the limited overlap makes it largely a non-issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
if you are already not able to fulfil the demand for a product, making it appealing to a another group of people who just want the models but not playing the game is a disadvantage

everything being sold out but no one being able playing the game (because those who want to cannot buy it) is the worst situation for a new game as the playerbase and popularity cannot grow

Again, the solution is increased production, not decreasing demand. This is basic economics.

no, the solution is to make sure that the product only appeals to the target group and not so someone else

increasing production does not solve the problem that those who want it won't get it if it is more appealing for salvage to a much larger group

same problem with Kill Team, those who want to play don't get the boxes because a much larger group (40k players) want them for salvage
increasing the production to make sure there are enough leftovers for people who want to try the game is not easily done

The greater issue is just that people don't like to buy card packs for minis games. Needing to buy Legion models then needing to buy Shatterpoint cards is just not happening, particularly with the dice and measurement tools on top of that. X-Wing couldn't even do this with their own game. Skirmish Legion has never been very popular. Selling a game to people that don't want to buy things just isn't a real market.

 LunarSol wrote:
The greater issue is just that people don't like to buy card packs for minis games. Needing to buy Legion models then needing to buy Shatterpoint cards is just not happening, particularly with the dice and measurement tools on top of that. X-Wing couldn't even do this with their own game. Skirmish Legion has never been very popular. Selling a game to people that don't want to buy things just isn't a real market.

This is a good point. Counter/Card heavy games like Legion do have a barrier to cross-game use if the game materials for both games aren't included with the miniatures. Doesn't seem like an insurmountable barrier to me given the relatively high price of miniatures in each game, but it's certainly something to consider.

FWIW, managing upgrade cards is easily my biggest Legion deterrent currently. I just find finding and storing multiple copies of upgrade cards every time I want to change a list incredibly cumbersome.

 Eilif wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I can count the number of them who have played any iteration of Kill Team on one hand. Most of them buy Kill Team branded products of course, but they aren't doing it for Kill Team, and they would still buy those products even if they weren't branded for Kill Team....

This is my core argument. Same scale, useable figures in both games equals more sales.

Except thats not more sales. Its sales they would have had either way. The packaging/label they put on the product doesn't change that - those who were already buying legion would continue to buy that product, and those who werent buying legion would also generally continue to not buy it. Producing a bespoke separate product that appeals to a different set of customers actually increases sales, not whatever it is you're trying and failing to advocate for.

Necroumunda to 40k is a weak comparison to IA/Leg/Shat as there are very, very few miniatures that have utility in the larger 40k game. I still wish they hadn't changed the scale but the limited overlap makes it largely a non-issue.

Exactly my point. Necromunda is a game that stands on its own legs. I know a surprisingly large number of people who play Necromunda but don't play any other GW games (same with Blood Bowl, but thats a different story). It appeals to a different market, it sells products to customers that GW wasn't necessarily selling 40k to. Same exact thing that Shatterpoint does.

Its not a hard concept to wrap your head around.

 LunarSol wrote:
FWIW, managing upgrade cards is easily my biggest Legion deterrent currently. I just find finding and storing multiple copies of upgrade cards every time I want to change a list incredibly cumbersome.

Which is why I'm not buying into another AMG/FFG style game.
I feel I'm storing as many cards as I did when I played MtG. Not to mention it brings in so many gotcha moments in games.

I love the SW Legion minis, so now I use them with the Xenos Rampant rules. I'm having far more enjoyable games.