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Made in ru
Been Around the Block



UK

Ive got a few sniper drones laying about and have not really used them (from old editons that could go around in squads of 9 and the marksman was a seaperate unit).
I was looking at a way to make them more useful / best use them in a game. I also like to use custom septs if I can instead of default ones now (makes things more interesting).
In the current editiion its Firesight Marksman = 1 marksman and 3 sniper drones in a unit for 70pts. (no upgrades or options nice and easy).

I was thinking would it make sense to get 3 squads (i would need to find another marksman or make a proxy) and put them in a devilfish?

The devilfish can hold 12 units (or 3 squads of Firesight Marksman (1 infantry and 3 drones) perfectly).
The marksman by himself is a bit useless for shhoting (only has a pistol). This means no big loss when they are embarked in the devilfish
The drons can be considered docked into the devilfish and can still be onboard shooting.
This means you would make full use fo the devilfish transport capacity and gain 9 drones with Longshot pulse rifle shots (Range 48", Rapid fire 1, S5, AP-2, D1) in additon to the devilfish weapons you may have loaded.

While I dont think that the drones would benefit from the marksman buffs while they are all together embarked in transport, it certianly seems like a good way to transport them around the board to to good spots, where they could punch out damage and be protected at the same time.

The marksman has terrible move of 6" and the drones have 10" but need to be within 6" to benefit from the marksman. So I have always thought that the marksman, with no form of forward deploy, is very stuck with the 6" move, only saved by the drones long range.
am not sure if this, using the devilfish 12" move is a better idea.

The alternative is to have 2 squads (which I already have) and a breacher team. The infantry in the devilfish (10 breachers + 2 marksmen) and the drones out side keeping up with the 12" move of the devil fish wiht there 10" move. Then the breachers can act as cover when they reach the desitnation. (might be more practical).

Am also thinking that if I took 2 or 3 squads of Firesight Marksman I would almost have to add the "Adherents to the Teachings" sept tenet to a custom sept so the marksmen get a 3" buff to the Drone Uplink ability (meaning that it is now 9" range to boost the drones BS, targeting and wound rolls of 6 resulting in mortal wound + damage)?

Is it cheeky to also ask if this "Adherents to the Teachings" applies to the breachers (and strike team) for deployment of support turret? it is in the command phase ability, it is set turrent up in 'unit cohenecy', which is 2".
So could I then deploy the turrect up to 5" away?
Im guessing that is something that has to be clarified before the game with players? just not sure howmany people would accept that?

Does this make sense or have I missed anything that would be better?

I kinda want to call it the sniperfish.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

I'm pretty sure the only drones that can be docked on a devilfish are the gun drones it comes with.
Any others being transported are just being hauled around same as any other passenger. And can't shoot.

Of course I've also not read any tau faq%errata, so .....
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



UK

The sniper drones (and other drones like tactical drones) have the ability - Docked Drone:

If this model is docked with another:
Any weapons this model is equipped with are considered to be equipped to the model it is docked with instead.
Attacks cannot be allocated to this model and it does not count as a model on the battlefield for any rules purposes.
If the model it is docked with is destroyed, this DRONE model is destroyed as well.

The devilfish also has this abilit (to confirm the same on the other end) - Drone Dock:
If this unit contains any DRONE models, those DRONE models begin the battle docked with this unit’s DEVILFISH model.


And yes I guess that would apply to Remora Stealth Drones too but that would be taking the ... and would nto really offer much benefit to the drones. (yet another oversight between FW and GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/26 07:09:18


 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

I always wanted the Dawn of war tau devilfish drone carrier. kind of like the tyranid thing that spawns more gaunts but in this case drones.









GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in fr
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot




Docked =/= embarked.

Contains =/= has embarked.

Putting drones in a Devilfish as passengers does not make them docked, nor does it make the Devilfish unit contain them. The only drones that will ever be contained by the Devilfish unit and docked with the vehicle model are the two gun drones it can start with. Sniper drones would just be normal passengers like any random infantry squad. Also, the marksman is part of the drone unit and can not be split off to ride in the transport while the drones stay outside.

In short: unfortunately you're confused about the rules and none of this stuff works.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/26 08:02:34


 
   
Made in ro
Been Around the Block



UK

The explanation from Aecus was a bit unclear I had to re-read everything again.
So what you are saying is basically GW cant English and have (yet again) deliberately made a poor job of the rule? (they have done that before so wouldn't be surprised).
So there was confusion on the words contains and embarked (as that can mean the same thing).

So the original devilfish ability is:
Drone Dock: If this unit contains any DRONE models, those DRONE models begin the battle docked with this unit’s DEVILFISH model.

And it should read?, if what you are saying is correct?:
Drone Dock: If this unit has been equipped with any DRONE models, those DRONE models begin the battle docked with this unit’s DEVILFISH model.
(meaning if the devilfish unit is equipped with gun drones, instead of smart missile systems).

Aecus Decimus wrote:
Docked =/= embarked.
Contains =/= has embarked.

This is just unclear.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Putting drones in a Devilfish as passengers does not make ~ the Devilfish unit contain them

…. Yes it does, GW has not defined 'contain' like they have with 'embarked'. So we have to use a dictionary (contains = have or hold (someone or something) within).

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Putting drones in a Devilfish as passengers does not make them docked


Well using the dictionary as above, if the drones are in / within / inside / held within (you get the point) then they are contained.
Using the GW abilities if they are contained then they are docked.
Using the GW abilities if they are docked then the drones behave as I have described.

I'm not sure that your view is correct (not saying its wrong), as the Drone Dock ability is also used on the tidewall droneport, hammerhead and skyray with the same wording.
Yet the wording for the drone dock ability is different in the below units:
Sun Shark Bomber - Drone Dock: This unit’s INTERCEPTOR DRONE models begin the battle docked with this unit’s SUN SHARK BOMBER model.
Piranhas - Drone Dock: For each PIRANHA model in this unit, two of this unit’s DRONE models begin the battle docked with that PIRANHA model.

So comparing the language, "If this unit contains any DRONE models" compared to "this unit’s DRONE models", there is a clear difference.
I think the difference is in units where they may not take a drone (like the devilfish, droneport, hammerhead and skyray can all take either none (droneport) or something without the drone key word (other units listed)).
Where as the Sun Shark and Piranhas only take drones equipped with the unit.
but that still does not explain why they don't have the same language for all of them "this unit’s DRONE models", which would be clear and still work if they don't have drones.
They clearly state "any" drone models.

Additionally the only drones listed in these units that can be equipped are Gun Drone, Marker Drone and Shield Drone yet all drones have the 'Docked Drone' ability (implying that all drones can use this ability).
Docked Drone - If this model is docked with another:
Any weapons this model is equipped with are considered to be equipped to the model it is docked with instead.
Attacks cannot be allocated to this model and it does not count as a model on the battlefield for any rules purposes.
If the model it is docked with is destroyed, this DRONE model is destroyed as well.

This is why I think that the drones 'embarked' on a devilfish (or droneport for that matter, any unit with the Drone Dock ability) can be Docked Drones.

The issue I have here is GW suddenly using the words “ contains any” in a transport units ability information. Who the hell wrote this?
I get that it may not be what GW was aiming for (maybe, still not clear on that) but it certainly is what it says.

And yes to clarify before anyone steps in, that devilfish is clear in transporting infantry or drones. The droneport / tidewall only says transport of infantry (then gives a complicated space capacity to wounds information for models). The tidewall has Terrain Feature ability were it becomes a terrain feature and not a building, and the drones have “For the purposes of interacting with terrain feature s, DRONE models count as having the INFANTRY keyword”.

If you disagree with plan A then plan B still applies:
As for the marksman in the transport and the drones being separate models and not needing to travel in the transport, this is an argument that has raged before (as past editions allowed drones to go off and do what ever, and that made sense).
The solution to that argument, if I remember, was that GW just added a stratagem 'Designated Tasking stratagem' to split the drones from the unit into a new unit of only drones. Something that I would do with the Firesight Marksman unit anyway to take full advantage of the 6” range of the marksman ability (I should have made that clearer).

There is still an argument that the vehicles Drone Dock ability only specifies that "those DRONE models begin the battle docked with this unit’s model" and that the drones can just float off and do there own thing after the beginning of battle (within unit coherency / 2” of the other models in the unit), which is something that goon hammer article misses completely (that covered this separation of docked drones and questioned what it means for per-model / per unit scoring).

Designated Tasking is not for the Drone Dock ability, instead it is for separating drones from any unit and creating a new drone keyword only unit. It happens to also include docked drones.
(I have been tempted to try this with a Shas’o R’alai HQ unit and its Blacklight Marker Drones just to see what they can do by themselves).

So to throw your own words back at you (which you didnt back up with any actual information)
"In short: unfortunately you're confused about the rules and none of this stuff works."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did not want a debate on the rules on this one, just if the idea behind it made sense.
Why do conversations on this forum always turn like this.

If we just take it as it works like that (as yet again GW cant English), would it make sense? (plan A or plan B?)

Or is ther a better way to get use out of the Firesight Marksman?

Just trying to get the best use out of these units.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/09/27 01:51:09


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

bedivere wrote:

I did not want a debate on the rules on this one, just if the idea behind it made sense.


You might not have wanted a rules debate, but you needed one.

As for your idea making sense? You're being told why it does not. And the reason it does not is "because rules".
But hey, try implementing your docked drone idea in a real game. Or better yet a tourney. Let us know how it goes.
   
Made in fr
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot




Hey guys, would tactical marines make sense as an anti-tank unit? D6 mortal wounds per hit seems like it would be really good at killing tanks but I don't see anyone talking about this idea.

I do not want a debate on the rules on this one, just if the idea behind it made sense.

Just trying to get the best use out of these units.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

ccs wrote:
bedivere wrote:

I did not want a debate on the rules on this one, just if the idea behind it made sense.


You might not have wanted a rules debate, but you needed one.

As for your idea making sense? You're being told why it does not. And the reason it does not is "because rules".
But hey, try implementing your docked drone idea in a real game. Or better yet a tourney. Let us know how it goes.


This. Please do try this in a tournament. And make sure to record the reactions you get.
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






bedivere wrote:

[...]
So the original devilfish ability is:
Drone Dock: If this unit contains any DRONE models, those DRONE models begin the battle docked with this unit’s DEVILFISH model.
[...]


I think the point is, that further up on the Devilfish datasheet it states:
A Devilfish is equipped with: accelerator burst cannon. This unit is equipped with 2 Gun Drones. A Gun Drone is equipped with: 2 pulse carbines.

These Gun drones can be replaced with smart missile systems.

So the quote by you means that if the Devilfish UNIT includes Drones (read: those where not replaced by smart missile systems), these are docked and can fire.
Note that in every instance I'm aware of, where EMBARKED units do something (like open topped vehicles) the rules specifically talk about "embarked models" not "models included in this unit"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/27 10:47:08


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