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Hecaton wrote:

Keep in mind that this is also heroic fantasy, so Imperial Guard Hero > Space Marine or even Custodes, even if regular Space Marine > regular Guardsman.

This is true, and examples like Straken prove this.

However, I interpreted the thread as not featuring "hero" units. Everyone is just a relatively average example of their faction.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:

2. Space Marines may be badass, but they cannot dodge bullets or beams like f***ing Neo.

.

I could probably find you several dozen examples of them doing just that. I can think of at least one example of a human doing it (Eisenhorn).

Hate it all you want but it isn't like claims like that came out of nowhere. Lucius the Eternal in basically every book he appears in, Argel Tal in The First Heretic, the Ultramarines sergeant whose name I forgot in Know No Fear, gak really does happen all the time.

lolwhut

Unless they have precognition like Jedi, it would be physically (as in the laws of physics) impossible for them to see the beam of an energy weapon coming, let alone dodge it. Is Eisenhorn a psyker? If so, that would likely explain how he did it.

As for plain ol' bullets, they move faster than the speed of sound. I don't care how good Space Marines' technology and biological modifications are... a being of flesh and blood cannot move fast enough to dodge a bullet that has already left the muzzle of the gun. A peregrine falcon dives at about 300 kph, which is less than one third of the speed of sound, and it doesn't reach that speed instantly. The kind of motion required to dodge even a single bullet would likely involve G-forces capable of destroying any carbon-based lifeform at a cellular level.

And even if Space Marines could indeed dodge a bullet (as opposed to merely evading the field of fire, as Hecaton says), a steady stream of gunfire from several shooters is another story. Those mfers are eight feet tall and very broad... How do you propose that they find, through the hail of bullets, a gap large enough to fit in?

.

*polite cough*

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, Cain books also said he defeats a Black Legionnaire in martial combat....And an ork Warboss. As had been pointed out to me several times, Cain books are not a source of fact.

(I don't personally agree with your past statement regarding the lorefulness of the Cain series, but I figured it was worth reminding you of it. I try to avoid being vindictive, but sometimes I can't resist.)

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well, why is a Custodes worth 100 Space Marines? You posted it, and I'm just curious as to why that would be the case. They seem marginally better for force concentration in CC and that's about it in terms of combat advantage. Otherwise they seem more like a figurehead organization.

As for "sides" I think I've explained my position pretty well so far. A Marine might be worth 10000 Guardsmen within the full context of their modus operandi and typical assets in theatre, but the fan-wankery of a Marine soloing 10000 Guardsmen is just crap.

Because they are strong and fast enough to tear through groups of average Marines as easily as Marines do guardsmen or even better, have the best equipment the Imperium can muster, and to boot also are much better shots and with much better guns than Marines.

1,000 Custodians killed over 100,000 Orks led by Gharkull Blackfang in moments. Valdor with a squad of Custodians cut through hundreds of Thousand Sons without suffering a single injury in the Battle of Prospero.

Your beef with Custodes is kind of amusing but sadly not especially backed up by the fluff. You can find a few counter examples sure, but Custodes are considerably superior to Astartes. As good as 100 of them? Idk where that claim comes from per say but there could be an argument for it.

Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?

And as noted here and in other threads, fluff is all over the place. On the table Custodes are marginally better than a Terminator, and like a Terminator much of their advantage comes from equipment. You get a bunch of Terminators together and they're capable of doing great things too. I just don't see the niche Custodes occupy as being particularly special, they seem to do the same job as Marines from a strategic point of view, and they can't concentrate force much more than Marines can through Terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Keep in mind that this is also heroic fantasy, so Imperial Guard Hero > Space Marine or even Custodes, even if regular Space Marine > regular Guardsman.

This is true, and examples like Straken prove this.

However, I interpreted the thread as not featuring "hero" units. Everyone is just a relatively average example of their faction.

Lol, sure. That's why you bring up:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
. . . .Lucius the Eternal in basically every book he appears in, Argel Tal in The First Heretic, the Ultramarines sergeant whose name I forgot in Know No Fear, gak really does happen all the time.

Just regular shmoes like Lucius the Eternal, eh?

And Know No Fear being one of the few BL novels I've read, I don't recal any "neo-dodging" by a UM Sergeant.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?

And as noted here and in other threads, fluff is all over the place. On the table Custodes are marginally better than a Terminator, and like a Terminator much of their advantage comes from equipment. You get a bunch of Terminators together and they're capable of doing great things too. I just don't see the niche Custodes occupy as being particularly special, they seem to do the same job as Marines from a strategic point of view, and they can't concentrate force much more than Marines can through Terminators.

Yup. The Custodes fanbase is... a bit special. From hyperbolic interpretations of their chosen golden bois's power level that outstrip those of Astartes, to banning anyone from their Facebook group who said their codex would be good instead of underpowered, to the unsubstantiated meme that Valdor could defeat primarchs one on one...

I guarantee that situation didn't go down like the poster you replied to depicted it, but that's par for the course for them.

Custodes can't be the equal of 100 Astartes in any meaningful way for the setting to make sense, or the wargame. They've been handed two meaningful defeats, first by the Sons of Horus, then by Harlequins, and of course they didn't write those down, so they probably had more than that on Old Terra.

Hecaton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?

And as noted here and in other threads, fluff is all over the place. On the table Custodes are marginally better than a Terminator, and like a Terminator much of their advantage comes from equipment. You get a bunch of Terminators together and they're capable of doing great things too. I just don't see the niche Custodes occupy as being particularly special, they seem to do the same job as Marines from a strategic point of view, and they can't concentrate force much more than Marines can through Terminators.

Yup. The Custodes fanbase is... a bit special. From hyperbolic interpretations of their chosen golden bois's power level that outstrip those of Astartes, to banning anyone from their Facebook group who said their codex would be good instead of underpowered, to the unsubstantiated meme that Valdor could defeat primarchs one on one...

I guarantee that situation didn't go down like the poster you replied to depicted it, but that's par for the course for them.

Custodes can't be the equal of 100 Astartes in any meaningful way for the setting to make sense, or the wargame. They've been handed two meaningful defeats, first by the Sons of Horus, then by Harlequins, and of course they didn't write those down, so they probably had more than that on Old Terra.

That custodes attitude is basically what everyone else has had to deal with regarding marine fanbois for 20 years and what this thread is about.

If people can see why custodes aren't that ridiculous, then they can understand whay people don't think marines are that ridiculous either.

When did Grimaldus stop an Ork Waaagh? In Helsreach, he and his retinue are getting overwhelmed by a ratio of 5 or 6 Orks per Space Marine

 Insectum7 wrote:
Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?

Sure thing.

"Only the Emperor and his inner circle know their exact number. Certainly only a thousand have ever been seen together at any one time, and then only once at the famous Battle of Gyros-Thravian, fought during the Great Crusade against the ork warlord Gharkhul Blackfang and his vast greenskin horde.

The Primarchs Horus, Rogal Dorn, and Mortarion and their legions were vastly outnumbered and close to defeat when the Emperor led an attack from his golden battle barge, the Bucephalus. At the head of a thousand Custodians, the Emperor struck at the very heart of the Ork horde, confronting Gharkhul atop a towering Gargant. As the Emperor decapitated the giant, black-skinned ork, the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord’s prime warriors. It is said that within moments over a hundred thousand greenskins died, and the Waaagh! was broken. Legend has it that only three Custodians died at the battle, their names enshrined forever, engraved on the Emperors armour.” "

–The Horus Heresy: Visions of Darkness, Page 18

And no, before the bad faith arguments come, it is said the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord's prime warriors as the Emperor was killing Gharkhul so this was their feat, not the Emperor's, and given the description of them being "Prime Warriors" it was likely these were mostly Nobz or better that were slain.

You could take the cop-out "myths and legends" approach to dismissing it but that reasoning applies to every source except direct narrative ones like BL which you types get so upset about when brought up. Which is why I deliberately only brought up non-BL fluff.

And as noted here and in other threads, fluff is all over the place.

This is a cop-out. Yes, you can indeed find excerpts of a Custodian (albeit a crippled and weak one) getting killed by a World Eater punching through his chest. But there is definitely fluff which supports the Custodes being far superior to Astartes and bluntly there's a lot more supporting that than the alternative, and your assertion that they are barely functional as an army borders on complete fantasy. You just don't like them lol.

On the table Custodes are marginally better than a Terminator, and like a Terminator much of their advantage comes from equipment.

Never said it didn't. So what?

You get a bunch of Terminators together and they're capable of doing great things too. I just don't see the niche Custodes occupy as being particularly special, they seem to do the same job as Marines from a strategic point of view, and they can't concentrate force much more than Marines can through Terminators.

The Imperium can definitely do without the Custodes far better than it could the Astartes that is true, though the Custodes do have a niche of being far more resistant to the effects of Chaos than everyone but the Grey Knights.

Lol, sure. That's why you bring up:

Cite me bringing it up in the context of the thread topic itself? I never even implied in my original post that a random TacMarine would be parrying projectile fire while fighting.

Just regular shmoes like Lucius the Eternal, eh?

And Know No Fear being one of the few BL novels I've read, I don't recal any "neo-dodging" by a UM Sergeant.

Technically accurate, but it does feature Marines processing incredible amounts of information in a nanosecond and the sergeant in particular stabbing a Word Bearer in the time span of a microsecond. Not literally dodging bullets, but moving much faster than the speed of sound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Guardsman- wrote:

lolwhut

Unless they have precognition like Jedi, it would be physically (as in the laws of physics) impossible for them to see the beam of an energy weapon coming, let alone dodge it. Is Eisenhorn a psyker? If so, that would likely explain how he did it.

Let's not pretend that 40k is at all consistent on what lasguns actually do. But yes, I would actually also prefer that they are literally lasers and as such Marines could not avoid them.

As for plain ol' bullets, they move faster than the speed of sound. I don't care how good Space Marines' technology and biological modifications are... a being of flesh and blood cannot move fast enough to dodge a bullet that has already left the muzzle of the gun. A peregrine falcon dives at about 300 kph, which is less than one third of the speed of sound, and it doesn't reach that speed instantly. The kind of motion required to dodge even a single bullet would likely involve G-forces capable of destroying any carbon-based lifeform at a cellular level.

A peregrine falcon is also considerably more fragile than you are, much less a Space Marine. There are skydivers who have literally broken the sound barrier and survived unharmed. And while they did benefit from being higher in the atmosphere and experiencing less drag they also are considerably less durable and not nearly as well protected as a Marine is.

Let us not also forget that Eldar, who are more fragile than Marines, are shown to bullet-time even more consistently.

And even if Space Marines could indeed dodge a bullet (as opposed to merely evading the field of fire, as Hecaton says), a steady stream of gunfire from several shooters is another story. Those mfers are eight feet tall and very broad... How do you propose that they find, through the hail of bullets, a gap large enough to fit in?

.

Not saying it's not another story, though bluntly most of the bullet-timing in their stories is less them dodging them like Neo (that's more Lucius' thing) and more than deflecting them with their swords.

Everyone is so argumentative (probably because of Marine envy, a common ailment the fandom has) but all I've said is that considering how often it does in fact happen in the stories don't be surprised when people bring it up. It actually occurring regularly in the text is a far more compelling argument than your pseudo-intellectual attempts to reason away the things that have already happened numerous times in the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:


Yup. The Custodes fanbase is... a bit special. From hyperbolic interpretations of their chosen golden bois's power level that outstrip those of Astartes, to banning anyone from their Facebook group who said their codex would be good instead of underpowered, to the unsubstantiated meme that Valdor could defeat primarchs one on one...

I guarantee that situation didn't go down like the poster you replied to depicted it, but that's par for the course for them.

Custodes can't be the equal of 100 Astartes in any meaningful way for the setting to make sense, or the wargame. They've been handed two meaningful defeats, first by the Sons of Horus, then by Harlequins, and of course they didn't write those down, so they probably had more than that on Old Terra.

^ Butthurt.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?

Sure thing.

"Only the Emperor and his inner circle know their exact number. Certainly only a thousand have ever been seen together at any one time, and then only once at the famous Battle of Gyros-Thravian, fought during the Great Crusade against the ork warlord Gharkhul Blackfang and his vast greenskin horde.

The Primarchs Horus, Rogal Dorn, and Mortarion and their legions were vastly outnumbered and close to defeat when the Emperor led an attack from his golden battle barge, the Bucephalus. At the head of a thousand Custodians, the Emperor struck at the very heart of the Ork horde, confronting Gharkhul atop a towering Gargant. As the Emperor decapitated the giant, black-skinned ork, the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord’s prime warriors. It is said that within moments over a hundred thousand greenskins died, and the Waaagh! was broken. Legend has it that only three Custodians died at the battle, their names enshrined forever, engraved on the Emperors armour.” "

–The Horus Heresy: Visions of Darkness, Page 18

And no, before the bad faith arguments come, it is said the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord's prime warriors as the Emperor was killing Gharkhul so this was their feat, not the Emperor's, and given the description of them being "Prime Warriors" it was likely these were mostly Nobz or better that were slain.

You could take the cop-out "myths and legends" approach to dismissing it but that reasoning applies to every source except direct narrative ones like BL which you types get so upset about when brought up. Which is why I deliberately only brought up non-BL fluff.

Well there's a couple big asterisks there. For one, details are even framed as legend "Legend has it. . ." and "it is said that within moments. . .", so rather than a cop out, it's a mere observation.

Second, The Emperor is there. Minor detail that might have slipped one's mind I'm sure. The most powerful sorcerer that humanity has ever seen is leading the charge. Gosh I wonder what his aura abilities are? Maybe he just cast a God-Emperor-level "The Quickening" on all his warriors and let them go to town.

So yeah, highly sus.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

And as noted here and in other threads, fluff is all over the place.

This is a cop-out.

It's just a fact. There was someone last year (?) claiming that Space Marines walked at 60 miles per hour because of some passage read in a novel. Double facepalm.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yes, you can indeed find excerpts of a Custodian (albeit a crippled and weak one) getting killed by a World Eater punching through his chest. But there is definitely fluff which supports the Custodes being far superior to Astartes and bluntly there's a lot more supporting that than the alternative, and your assertion that they are barely functional as an army borders on complete fantasy. You just don't like them lol.

The measure of "far superior" is the crux of the matter. 100xSpace Marine they are clearly not. Maybe 2 or 3x, and advantages dwindle quickly once you put a Marine in comparable gear.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Lol, sure. That's why you bring up:

Cite me bringing it up in the context of the thread topic itself? I never even implied in my original post that a random TacMarine would be parrying projectile fire while fighting.

Looks pretty in context to me. Maybe you didn't intend it to be, but it sure reads that way.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Just regular shmoes like Lucius the Eternal, eh?

And Know No Fear being one of the few BL novels I've read, I don't recal any "neo-dodging" by a UM Sergeant.

Technically accurate, but it does feature Marines processing incredible amounts of information in a nanosecond and the sergeant in particular stabbing a Word Bearer in the time span of a microsecond. Not literally dodging bullets, but moving much faster than the speed of sound.

Easy to chalk up to flavorful language. They're only Initiative 4 and have a 6" move.


. . .

 Void__Dragon wrote:

As for plain ol' bullets, they move faster than the speed of sound. I don't care how good Space Marines' technology and biological modifications are... a being of flesh and blood cannot move fast enough to dodge a bullet that has already left the muzzle of the gun. A peregrine falcon dives at about 300 kph, which is less than one third of the speed of sound, and it doesn't reach that speed instantly. The kind of motion required to dodge even a single bullet would likely involve G-forces capable of destroying any carbon-based lifeform at a cellular level.

A peregrine falcon is also considerably more fragile than you are, much less a Space Marine. There are skydivers who have literally broken the sound barrier and survived unharmed. And while they did benefit from being higher in the atmosphere and experiencing less drag they also are considerably less durable and not nearly as well protected as a Marine is.

You're missing the physics of the point being made. Of course a human body and a falcon can go really fast . . . after accelerating for some time. As the saying goes, "It's not the fall that kills you it's the sudden stop at the end." The front end of the fall is no different. Accelerating from zero to over 600mph in one-tenth of a second will smash you, a falcon, and presumably a Space Marine just as well. Unless of course you want to argue that a fall at supersonic speed will leave a Space Marine unharmed upon striking the ground. I don't think you want to make that argument though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hellebore wrote:

That custodes attitude is basically what everyone else has had to deal with regarding marine fanbois for 20 years and what this thread is about.

If people can see why custodes aren't that ridiculous, then they can understand whay people don't think marines are that ridiculous either.

I mean there are fanbois and there are fanbois. I love my Marines and it's my main army, but the gak people come up with is nuts.

Do you remember one of those threads back on Warseer where people kept inflating the height of a Marine based on certain descriptions from the novels? 8 feet tall, 10 feet tall Space Marines? I'm sure people got up to 12 at some point.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?

Sure thing.

"Only the Emperor and his inner circle know their exact number. Certainly only a thousand have ever been seen together at any one time, and then only once at the famous Battle of Gyros-Thravian, fought during the Great Crusade against the ork warlord Gharkhul Blackfang and his vast greenskin horde.

The Primarchs Horus, Rogal Dorn, and Mortarion and their legions were vastly outnumbered and close to defeat when the Emperor led an attack from his golden battle barge, the Bucephalus. At the head of a thousand Custodians, the Emperor struck at the very heart of the Ork horde, confronting Gharkhul atop a towering Gargant. As the Emperor decapitated the giant, black-skinned ork, the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord’s prime warriors. It is said that within moments over a hundred thousand greenskins died, and the Waaagh! was broken. Legend has it that only three Custodians died at the battle, their names enshrined forever, engraved on the Emperors armour.” "

–The Horus Heresy: Visions of Darkness, Page 18

lol

So, please indulge my curiosity, when you imagined this, what were "the Primarchs Horus, Rogal Dorn, and Mortarion and their legions" doing during this attack from the golden battle barge?

Also, was the golden battle barge out of golden battle ammo? Or did the Enborer tell everyone "Bros please turn off yr guns, I need this" before he struck.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Let's not pretend that 40k is at all consistent on what lasguns actually do. But yes, I would actually also prefer that they are literally lasers and as such Marines could not avoid them.

Waiiiiit, is there actually a school of thought claiming that lasguns don't fire lasers?

There are skydivers who have literally broken the sound barrier and survived unharmed.

Here I'm obviously talking about acceleration, not velocity. Did those skydivers accelerate from 0 to 1000+ kph in 0.01 seconds? I don't think so.

To create an organism that can handle the sort of G-forces we're talking about here, you'd have to build it from scratch at a cellular or even molecular level rather than modify an existing one, because the building blocks of life as we know it (carbon-based cells and so on) just aren't up to the task.

Not saying it's not another story, though bluntly most of the bullet-timing in their stories is less them dodging them like Neo (that's more Lucius' thing) and more than deflecting them with their swords.

Unless you're quadruple-wielding like General Grievous (and maybe even then), you can't deflect all projectiles from an Imperial Guard squad firing in unison, any more than you can dodge them all. They're going to come at you from more directions than you have swords.

Space Marines get killed all the time, and not just by other Space Marines. They get killed by Orks, they get killed by T'au and Eldar, they get killed by Tyranids, they get killed by plain ol' humans. The same fluff that you quote as if it were written by the God-Emperor Himself is full of Space Marines dying at the hands of a wide variety of opponents and to a broad range of weapons, just like any other soldiers. I don't know where you get this compulsion to find far-fetched reasons why nothing the Imperial Guard can throw at them will stick. You sound like a kid playing rock-paper-scissors and coming up with a fourth, secret thing that trumps rock, paper and scissors.

(probably because of Marine envy, a common ailment the fandom has)

LMFAO

"Space Marines' extra organs and hardened skin enable them to break multiple laws of physics and principles of common sense! Also they can make an entire veteran company quail in terror by their mere presence, play blindfolded chess against 20 grandmasters simultaneously and win every game, write an epic poem while hurtling down in a drop pod, and impregnate your wife just by winking at her!"

"WTF no they don't"

"Oooh, butthurt much? You must have Marine envy!"

It actually occurring regularly in the text is a far more compelling argument than your pseudo-intellectual attempts to reason away the things that have already happened numerous times in the fluff.

What if...

(hear me out)

...some of the fluff is fracking stupid, and was clearly written by people who have no idea what they're talking about?

.

Some lore has Lasguns with recoil, some have actual impact, knocking people back. Lasguns not being lasers seems stupid, but there is evidence for them having kinetic projectiles.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
Some lore has Lasguns with recoil, some have actual impact, knocking people back. Lasguns not being lasers seems stupid, but there is evidence for them having kinetic projectiles.

Iirc the 2nd ed Wargear book has them firing "explosive bolts of energy", like a Star Wars blaster. But then the DOW series has them firing actual laser beams.

I kinda like the idea of the capacity to do either.

Me and my friends decided on lasers for a project we're working on, but we did explore a lot of options. Out of everything 40k, Lasguns took the most work, followed by the Bolter, but the Bolter was mostly arguing over how strong it should be in comparison to real guns, how much recoil it would have, the strength required to use it, and if "Human Bolters" were lower caliber, or just smaller sized with the same rounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, and a big part of the issue was that, once we added power settings to the Lasgun, while weaker than the Bolter, ended up being so efficient that they might end up preferred over Bolters by even Marines, despite Bolters being able to explode a human instantly. We had to lower its Rate of Fire and lower its accuracy. Lasguns are absurd once you look into them just a bit.

But the more we fought about Bolters, the more we realized that they were kind of impotent in comparison. Gyroc rounds would cause such low recoil, combined with .75 Caliber being smaller than you'd think, other than size, Bolters should probably be usable by children. But we did decide to ignore reality, and made them powerful. The only annoying bit was someone arguing that a normal human firing a Bolter should kill them due to recoil.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:

But the more we fought about Bolters, the more we realized that they were kind of impotent in comparison. Gyroc rounds would cause such low recoil, combined with .75 Caliber being smaller than you'd think, other than size, Bolters should probably be usable by children. But we did decide to ignore reality, and made them powerful. The only annoying bit was someone arguing that a normal human firing a Bolter should kill them due to recoil.

The recoil is probably the most flexible aspect of Bolters, as I think there's an initial charge to kick the round out prior to the rocket taking over. All you have to do is adjust that initial explosion up or down to get your desired level of kick.

Lorewise that gives you all the room necessary for humans and Marines to wield the same weapon. You could just have it that Marines are more stable when firing it, and they could even use ammunition with a bigger initial charge for a bit of extra velocity.

. . .
As for arms ripping off, obviously humans can fire large caliber shotguns, rifles, grenade launchers etc, so that seems pretty ignorable. Might be uncomfortable though!

We made it so humans use a .70 Caliber, and Marines use a .75 Caliber, with different sized guns. I argued for them using the same size Bolters, but I was outnumbered 3 to 1. But I did manage to make it so humans can use the bigger Bolter, it's just generally going to be harder.

I love 40k, man, but sometimes the guns make me feel crazy.

To get back on topic, though, despite all the arguing and bickering about Bolters and Lasguns, we agreed that 50 Guardsmen was roughly the amount needed to kill a Marine on average.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
We made it so humans use a .70 Caliber, and Marines use a .75 Caliber, with different sized guns. I argued for them using the same size Bolters, but I was outnumbered 3 to 1. But I did manage to make it so humans can use the bigger Bolter, it's just generally going to be harder.

I love 40k, man, but sometimes the guns make me feel crazy.

To get back on topic, though, despite all the arguing and bickering about Bolters and Lasguns, we agreed that 50 Guardsmen was roughly the amount needed to kill a Marine on average.

Try the physics of a shuriken catapult for brain melting - gravitically accelerated discs (so they are fired like a star trek ship going to warp...), that weigh nothing, but hit really hard, required some crazy % Light speed accelerations and screw with the concept of short-ranged weapons. It's pretty much impossible to take the physics of the gun as described and try to make it work the way it's also described...


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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

That custodes attitude is basically what everyone else has had to deal with regarding marine fanbois for 20 years and what this thread is about.

If people can see why custodes aren't that ridiculous, then they can understand whay people don't think marines are that ridiculous either.

I mean there are fanbois and there are fanbois. I love my Marines and it's my main army, but the gak people come up with is nuts.

Do you remember one of those threads back on Warseer where people kept inflating the height of a Marine based on certain descriptions from the novels? 8 feet tall, 10 feet tall Space Marines? I'm sure people got up to 12 at some point.

Yeah, and with the advent of Primaris there's been quite a lot of backpedaling in that area - it's ok marines are 7-7.5 foot tall because primaris are 8-8.5 feet tall...

IMO they are fine at 7 foot and primaris can be 7.5 - with a 0.5 foot variable for your bigger ones. They're not just tall, but wide, so they're like a dwarf's proportions but 7 foot tall (even at 7 foot they'd look bigger than a tall human because they'd be deeper and wider - the square cube law)... But ever since the HH CCG redesigned the primarchs to be giants and the emperor as overly blinged up and huge, the power fantasy of being a monster soldier just seems to push up everything...

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
To get back on topic, though, despite all the arguing and bickering about Bolters and Lasguns, we agreed that 50 Guardsmen was roughly the amount needed to kill a Marine on average.

Sounds reasonable to me. "On average" is key, of course, as the ratio will vary wildly depending on circumstances.

 Hellebore wrote:
But ever since the HH CCG redesigned the primarchs to be giants and the emperor as overly blinged up and huge,

The Emperor wasn't genetically modified though, as far as I know, unless he experimented on himself with the growth hormones he would later use on Marines. Either his purported size is mainly due to his power armor, or his Warp presence distorts people's perception of him.

the power fantasy of being a monster soldier just seems to push up everything...

I think they definitely went over the top with the "bigger is better" thing. There comes a point where size becomes a hindrance. Given the way volume and weight interact, becoming too big and heavy would make them less proportionally strong, no matter how much of their weight is muscle, in the same way that ants can carry many times their own weight but humans can't. By contrast with Marines, Officio Assassinorum operatives are plenty deadly without needing to be mountains of muscle.

This could be partly chalked up to the needs and expectations of a miniature game. People wouldn't be as interested in collecting and fielding Marines if they were no bigger than your average human, T'au and Eldar infantry. An army that's marketed as some of the best individual fighters of the setting are expected to look the part.

.

The Emperor could appear more or less now he wanted, by warping the viewer’s perceptions.

I’ll be back on this in a day or two. Had a horrific cold (not COVID thankfully) and so a head like cottonwool.

It changes depending on the author and context.
Personally the terrifying killing machine version of marines is more appealling in the context of the setting, but it would be difficult to write a set of rules where 10,000 guard killing one marine feels like a victory!

Have we discussed what flavour of Marine?

For instance, a Raven Guard Primaris Infiltrator is a completely different threat to say, a Dark Angels Deathwing Knight, or a Blood Angel Death Company with a Jump Pack.

Raven Guard Infiltrator, with his baffled armour and genetic tendency to super sneaky stab deth is a sod for Imperial Guard. Sneak in, sabotage sabotage sabotage, maybe leave your Commander scattered around like a grisly scavenger hunt

-Guardsman- wrote:
People wouldn't be as interested in collecting and fielding Marines if they were no bigger than your average human, T'au and Eldar infantry. An army that's marketed as some of the best individual fighters of the setting are expected to look the part.
.

You say that, but the old school Marines sold like crazy even when they weren't much bigger than Guardsmen.

And no one has a problem buying sisters which are normal sized humans in power armour.

Hold on, the Emperor in all the "Remembrancer" art or however it's spelled, was clearly just about 2/3s of a Horus. Seeing as how Horus was over 10' tall in his armor, that makes the Emperor around 6', right?

Then again, as others have said, he was in his Emperor variant Terminator plate, so maybe he's actually 5+? Now we are getting dangerously close to heresy.

 Insectum7 wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
People wouldn't be as interested in collecting and fielding Marines if they were no bigger than your average human, T'au and Eldar infantry. An army that's marketed as some of the best individual fighters of the setting are expected to look the part.
.

You say that, but the old school Marines sold like crazy even when they weren't much bigger than Guardsmen.

Times change, peoples' standards go up, I bought Marines and Guardsmen back in the 00's, part of the reason I stopped buying them was the weird scaling and proportions started to bug me.

So I propose a test:

Would a chapter fortress of JUST space Marines be able to hold off an entire tendril of a hive fleet? Yes, and has at least twice. The Ultramarines, and the Blood Angels.

Could a planet of JUST imperial guard and PDF hold off a Tyranid invasion? No. Nor could they even hope to. Even if every single IG soldier was given a plasma rifle, a melta pistol, and a power fist. Entire hive worlds have fallen with far greater support than just the guard can manage. The Space Marines are the only ones who've literally beaten them back.

That is how much more a space marine is than a standard human.

Cain and company have beaten Tyranids back without Marine support, your premise is false.

Edit: For that matter, the Ultramarines had the support of their Auxiliaries, and the Death Korps of Krieg, as well. And the BA were getting their teeth kicked in until Khorne intervened.

The Ultras also had massive support from the Navy.

Just the homeworld and marines is probably going to be snacktime. Might take a while, but the forces a hivefleet bring down are impressive.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Cain and company have beaten Tyranids back without Marine support, your premise is false.

Edit: For that matter, the Ultramarines had the support of their Auxiliaries, and the Death Korps of Krieg, as well. And the BA were getting their teeth kicked in until Khorne intervened.

The nids that Cain and company saw off were a splinter/remnant rather than a full strength tendril. And really, they were either against a single hiveship or delaying the nids until the main imperial forces arrives.

That said, SM chapter fortress and planet full of guardsmen/PDF are very different targets and I don't think will give a good comparison.

Maybe a different test: who would win at a limbo contest?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I propose a test:

Would a chapter fortress of JUST space Marines be able to hold off an entire tendril of a hive fleet? Yes, and has at least twice. The Ultramarines, and the Blood Angels.

Could a planet of JUST imperial guard and PDF hold off a Tyranid invasion? No. Nor could they even hope to. Even if every single IG soldier was given a plasma rifle, a melta pistol, and a power fist. Entire hive worlds have fallen with far greater support than just the guard can manage. The Space Marines are the only ones who've literally beaten them back.

That is how much more a space marine is than a standard human.

The Defense of Baal saw not just the Blood Angels, but all of their successor Chapters (five Chapter Masters from Successor Chapters lost their lives in the defense), all defending against the Tyranids and they were going to lose. "Baal was ready to fall".

The defense of Ultramar saw the Tyranids facing several worlds worth of defense stations and Ultramar Auxilla (PDF) prior to coming to Macragge, which was also surrounded by defense stations, the local Ultramar Defense Fleet, as well as the Ultramarine fleet itself. And the UM forces were STILL losing. The deciding factor was the arrival of a third fleet, Battlefleet Tempestus of the Imperial Navy, which barely managed to turn the tide in space. If it was just the UM defending (even with their fleet) it was inevitable UM loss.