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The price increase for the heathguard and berserkers might be a bit much.

Tbh I think GW should just do points costs for all armies, hell even the rules as a digital living document. Codexes should be shifted into lore/art sourcebooks only. This game has been wildly unstable for too long, I don't know how anyone can keep up with it.

All the negativity in here is so dumb. Yes, GW fethed up pretty hard with the Votann release, given how obviously busted the book is (or rather, was before this nerf), but unlike in editions past where blatantly broken stuff remained as it was in the game for years, they immediately change it to stop the meta from being adversely affected. And still, all anyone does is complain. GW just can't win for losing, I guess. People are gonna piss and moan no matter what they do.

As for how I feel about the nerfs themselves, I think it leaves the army with plenty of teeth while toning down a lot of the absolutely busted gak. When shooting at a unit with 3 JTs, auto wounding on 4+ is crazy good still, even if it doesn't proc the big effects. It makes it where even their small arms can credibly threaten something like a Knight or a Great Unclean One, so the army should still have plenty of power. They just won't be able to take as much stuff as before, and that's okay. What's more, if it turns out that they've gone too far and made the army too weak, they can always walk some of the changes back in the next points update or balance dataslate (and despite all the bitching in this thread, those dataslates are a great thing for the game and have done wonders to keep the meta healthier than it's ever been).

I'm sure I'm gonna get called a "GW White Knight" or an apologist or something else, but I don't care. I still enjoy the game, I still love the models, and I've been pretty happy with how GW has been handling balance issues in the last few years. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So differently that they don't understand how strong having a widely available ability that skips a step in the long standing: hit-wound-save system for damage resolution is? I mean, they do have at least some rules writers that understand that stuff, they just work on other games. Maybe they should, I don't know, talk?

I think you put more time into writing the above than they did into really considering the ramifications of auto-wounds that count as a natural 6. I doubt that that thought even crossed their minds as they were writing it, and if it did, it was probably accompanying by either a complete lack of understanding at how that would play out or a "Well, it's just a fun rule. I doubt it'll be abused".

I think part of the problem is mindset. Even if they know that a rule is strong, I don't think they realize just how strong or overpowered it might be because they don't push the boundaries and try to break things, whereas real players and external playtesters do.

I am always reminded of Gav Thorpe's mentality from back in 3rd edition for the Eldar Codex though I think it is probably representative of GW as a whole. He knew some choices like star cannons were stronger than others which were mediocre. However instead of realizing that players would load up on the good choice and create overpowered star cannon spam lists, he thought that people would take a mix of good and bad choices to average it out to medium power. GW design and internal playtester has always had this problem because they don't seem to try skewed lists and I don't know whether they are restricted to the inefficient mix that they have painted up as their Studio army. That means they never see themselves how a strong rule might be acceptable if only applicable sparingly but become overpowered if too widely applicable, especially if there is a synergistic combo.

This would mostly be solved by not allowing spamming of units/weapons...or even more easily solved if you're not an donkey-cave

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
"Most Play Tested Edition Ever"

Iit was. They just stopped before writing any of the codexes.

I haven't bought into the Votann at all or really followed their rules so far.

I did watch the series of Votann battle reports via Warhammer TV.

Is this change linked to the rule that caused the Ork player to say something along the lines of:

"You rolled a 1 and have hit me twice"

Is thus as big as Andy Chambers apologising for the Virus Outbreak strategy card back in 2nd Ed and telling players to rip the card up?

 dan2026 wrote:
Why are they nerfing everything before the majority of the models are even out?

This makes no sense.

To power trip. They can take advantage of the players, so why not?

 dan2026 wrote:
Why are they nerfing everything before the majority of the models are even out?

This makes no sense.

Because that is when all nerfs should happen. And hopefully is when all future nerfs happens, so nobody's weekend is ever again wasted by having to play against stupid gak like Crusher or 9 Voidweavers ever again.

 dan2026 wrote:
Why are they nerfing everything before the majority of the models are even out?

This makes no sense.

Because army was provenly op as hell to the effect it was leading to bans which hurts their sales. Their marketing ploy backfired.

Rules just didn't look op but games showed them to be op

tneva82 wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Why are they nerfing everything before the majority of the models are even out?

This makes no sense.

Because army was provenly op as hell to the effect it was leading to bans which hurts their sales. Their marketing ploy backfired.

Rules just didn't look op but games showed them to be op

They already sold out on pre-orders, this wasn't about sales. And most players do not play in tournaments.

Not that it matters to me. Check my list, I play Thurian with Uthar. I'm actually one of the least effected and didn't spend a dime, I'm one of the few that gets to keep their Auto-6s.

Loyal customers who spent a lot of hard earned money? Well I hope they plan on playing Thurian.Lol.

Asenion wrote:
They already sold out on pre-orders, this wasn't about sales. And most players do not play in tournaments.

Don't be so short-sighted. They were worried about the upcoming full release. An it was bad press, regardless of whether most people play in tournaments or not.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Because that is when all nerfs should happen

It should happen before the book is published. Because they should have done proper testing, something they still don't do. How do you not get this? Why are you the only person in this thread buying GW's bull gak hook, line and sinker?

Given the lead times in production is there any chance that the changes will be present when the "standard" Votann codex is released?

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
Given the lead times in production is there any chance that the changes will be present when the "standard" Votann codex is released?

Smart money's on no, but that could depend on when they intend to release the Votann. If it's before the end of the year, then no, that ship has sailed. But if it was a mid-2023 thing, then yeah, there's still a chance.

They take many months to do these codexes right? How did they managed to rebalance the full codex with so many points changes, in just a few days?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
All the negativity in here is so dumb. Yes, GW fethed up pretty hard with the Votann release, given how obviously busted the book is (or rather, was before this nerf), but unlike in editions past where blatantly broken stuff remained as it was in the game for years, they immediately change it to stop the meta from being adversely affected. And still, all anyone does is complain. GW just can't win for losing, I guess. People are gonna piss and moan no matter what they do.

As for how I feel about the nerfs themselves, I think it leaves the army with plenty of teeth while toning down a lot of the absolutely busted gak. When shooting at a unit with 3 JTs, auto wounding on 4+ is crazy good still, even if it doesn't proc the big effects. It makes it where even their small arms can credibly threaten something like a Knight or a Great Unclean One, so the army should still have plenty of power. They just won't be able to take as much stuff as before, and that's okay. What's more, if it turns out that they've gone too far and made the army too weak, they can always walk some of the changes back in the next points update or balance dataslate (and despite all the bitching in this thread, those dataslates are a great thing for the game and have done wonders to keep the meta healthier than it's ever been).

I'm sure I'm gonna get called a "GW White Knight" or an apologist or something else, but I don't care. I still enjoy the game, I still love the models, and I've been pretty happy with how GW has been handling balance issues in the last few years. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

Yeah I'm right with you. GW dropped the ball on this one by including a bunch of game mechanics already proven to be bad, and they should have known better. I suspect this book is a result of them not wanting to put a brand new faction through the same amount of external playtesting as other codexes; they prioritised leak security over game balance. It's yet another nail in the coffin of their flawed printed rules business model, which I really hope will be addressed in 10th.

However at the same time anyone buying this codex on release knew precisely what it was. The leaked PDF and discussion around it has been out for some time, and there were plenty of plainly worded reviews out for when pre-orders opened. It was never a realistic proposition for most people to assemble all a full 2000pt competitive Votann list and get substantial use of it before the next Chapter Approved or FAQ. The points listed in the codex were always going to be revised and anyone pearl-clutching over these changes is just being dishonest with themselves.

tneva82 wrote:

Because army was provenly op as hell to the effect it was leading to bans which hurts their sales.

Which events banned the codex for "being provenly OP"?

 NAVARRO wrote:
They take many months to do these codexes right? How did they managed to rebalance the full codex with so many points changes, in just a few days?

Something something book printing.

Asenion wrote:


They already sold out on pre-orders, this wasn't about sales. And most players do not play in tournaments.

Not that it matters to me. Check my list, I play Thurian with Uthar. I'm actually one of the least effected and didn't spend a dime, I'm one of the few that gets to keep their Auto-6s.

Loyal customers who spent a lot of hard earned money? Well I hope they plan on playing Thurian.Lol.

Ah yes. GW only wants to sell the box. They don't want to sell the solo boxes at all. LOL. Yeah right. Think for a second...

Do you REALLY think votann sales will be only the launch set? There is never going to be land fortress on sale? No berserkers on sale? All GW ever wanted to sell was launch box and that's it?

ROFLMAO! That's so stupid idea that words fail me.

OF COURSE THEY CARE ABOUT SALES OF THE KITS THEY HAVE TO RELEASE STILL!!! So banning army hurting sales of those worry GW a lot.

 NAVARRO wrote:
They take many months to do these codexes right? How did they managed to rebalance the full codex with so many points changes, in just a few days?

Finger + tongue x air = points value.

I'd argue they haven't given they just rendered the rail weapons special rule pretty much redundant, suggests they didn't think it through to completion.

 NAVARRO wrote:
They take many months to do these codexes right? How did they managed to rebalance the full codex with so many points changes, in just a few days?

By having nerfs ready in advance.

tneva82 wrote:

Asenion wrote:


They already sold out on pre-orders, this wasn't about sales. And most players do not play in tournaments.

Not that it matters to me. Check my list, I play Thurian with Uthar. I'm actually one of the least effected and didn't spend a dime, I'm one of the few that gets to keep their Auto-6s.

Loyal customers who spent a lot of hard earned money? Well I hope they plan on playing Thurian.Lol.

Ah yes. GW only wants to sell the box. They don't want to sell the solo boxes at all. LOL. Yeah right. Think for a second...

Do you REALLY think votann sales will be only the launch set? There is never going to be land fortress on sale? No berserkers on sale? All GW ever wanted to sell was launch box and that's it?

ROFLMAO! That's so stupid idea that words fail me.

OF COURSE THEY CARE ABOUT SALES OF THE KITS THEY HAVE TO RELEASE STILL!!! So banning army hurting sales of those worry GW a lot.

You're missing the point. Most buyers won't be going to anywhere they'd be "banned", you're talking about the smaller chunk of the gaming population who attend big events.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
Maybe they'll get it right when they release Squat 2.0s

This is a very good point. A new Votaan Codex with the other half of their miniature range is only 12-18 months away, so maybe they'll get that one right.

That is the main reason I didn't buy into this release. I know, it tells GW I am not interested, but I'm not interested in a broken-on-release codex, with another along all too soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Necros wrote:
If you use the Warhammer app, does everything get updated automagically or do I still have go and track down all the FAQs?

From the linked article:
"These changes will appear in the official Warhammer 40,000 app shortly, while you can download the update here:"

We dont really need a sixth thread on the squats.