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panzerfront14 wrote:
I figure that we could play around with the Ork statline a bit. More shooting oriented Orks could take a page from one of those ideas and get plus 1+ to hit when within Dakka Range, we could also add bonuses for sheer shot count and give orks a sort of table when shooting more than say 15 shots per unit, and have them start gaining some small bonuses as you get into some of the absurd shot count squads like full Loota Squads or near full strength Shoota Boy squads.

But fundamentally orks are poorly served on many of their shooting units by the lack of a suppression mechanic. Imagine if laying down a hail of bullets on a target made it easier for another unit to charge, or perhaps inflicted a debuff to enemy infantry shooting counter balanced by a slight durability buff representing them taking cover. Yes the average ork boy is inaccurate, but standing in the open against 30 Shoota Boyz all opening fire on you is stupid.

+1 to hit while in Dakka range doesn't help at all, and to be blunt the entire idea of Dakka range is stupid and whomever invented it at GW should be forbidden from writing ork rules from now on. A shoota is 18' range, that means Dakka range is 9'. Turn 1 I start at a minimum of 24' away, they can only move 5, so I literally have ZERO chance of getting a unit of shoota boyz into "dakka" range turn 1, Turn 2 if I do get them into range i'm now 9' or less away....I don't want to kill the unit closest to me because then my charge is going to be longer and unless you dramatically buff shoota boyz I want them in CC more than I want them shooting.

For a Big shoota and lootas....its not as bad but its still fundamentally silly. I have to move a Lootas unit out of cover they deployed in (By necessity) turn 1 to get within 24' range for +1 to hit...Which almost guarantees they go back to a 5+ to hit because of how much terrain and -1 to hit mechanics are in the game at present. Not to mention if there are multiple -1 to hits (Terrain and army rule) they still go to a 6+ to hit. But lets assume under optimal circumstances they get within 24' range without losing a model and get the dakka buff you mentioned, a 140pt loota unit gets 24 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds and 6dmg Vs a simple T7 3+ vehicle, give them the prevalent buffs we see all over the place of +1 armor, ignore 1dmg etc and its worse. Or against Marine Infantry its 4 dead infantry...unless they are in cover then its 2.6

As far as horde style shooting buffs, sounds good on paper but thanks to GW's anti-horde mindset it will never be useful.

As a quick fix, fully agree with Semper. Ignore modifiers as a flat wording, no +/- and the better shots in the ork army get higher base to show it. Dakka goes back to assault but with the extra shots at half range because why not. Suddenly shootas and the like aren't complete deadweight but simultaneously an ork gun line isn't suddenly going to take over the world.

To the complaints about people's subfactions being ignored, I agree it's a poor design that some armies remove other armies free rulrs stuff. Maybe they shouldn't have free rules stuff in the first place.

Dudeface wrote:
As a quick fix, fully agree with Semper. Ignore modifiers as a flat wording, no +/- and the better shots in the ork army get higher base to show it. Dakka goes back to assault but with the extra shots at half range because why not. Suddenly shootas and the like aren't complete deadweight but simultaneously an ork gun line isn't suddenly going to take over the world.

To the complaints about people's subfactions being ignored, I agree it's a poor design that some armies remove other armies free rulrs stuff. Maybe they shouldn't have free rules stuff in the first place.

That does bring into question how you would change the Freebooterz trait, as that functionally makes it useless. Unless you word it so it boosts the characteristic into being one higher rather than being + to hit modifier?

For this, wouldn't the simplist solution to be treat a large unit similar to blast.

For example, whilst the unit contain 10 or more models, when shooting this unit always has a minimum of 5 hits. If the unit contain 20 or more then that minimum changes to a 10.

That way if you are lucky and get more than the minimum you still benefit from dice gods. the -1 rules still is in effect by armies so if you always on minimum then the opponent doesnt feel done out.

But also once the unit drops below the strength then the rules start to come into play as they would normally thus making it fluffy and fair.

While you have the horde the sheer amount of bullets ove rrides the negatives to hit. but as the horde drops the accuracy becomes more relevent.

This not an easier way to tackle it?

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
For this, wouldn't the simplist solution to be treat a large unit similar to blast.

For example, whilst the unit contain 10 or more models, when shooting this unit always has a minimum of 5 hits. If the unit contain 20 or more then that minimum changes to a 10.

That way if you are lucky and get more than the minimum you still benefit from dice gods. the -1 rules still is in effect by armies so if you always on minimum then the opponent doesnt feel done out.

But also once the unit drops below the strength then the rules start to come into play as they would normally thus making it fluffy and fair.

While you have the horde the sheer amount of bullets ove rrides the negatives to hit. but as the horde drops the accuracy becomes more relevent.

This not an easier way to tackle it?

I think the problem with this is that it doesn't scale very well and inadequately reflects the dakka coming from single or multiple vehicle model units. A lot of shooty units also cap out at 10-15 models, so you're basically capping at 5 guaranteed hits only for guys like Flash Gitz or Lootas, which is pretty meaningless and effectively the same as just rolling normally for them. Similarly, this does nothing to help things like Morkanauts that have their shooting crippled by -1 to hit mods or units like Killa Kanz armed with Big Shootas. This really only seems aimed towards Shoota Boyz, which suck mainly because they can't advance and shoot, have too short ranged for their weapons to all be in range of their target and the lack of AP on their guns really makes their shooting inconsequential against enemies in cover, so you may as well just take choppas instead. Throw in the fact that hordes just don't work this edition, especially with how the fundamental Ork rules have lost all meaningful support to make them work like it did in previous editions, and you'll never see anyone taking 20-30 man mobz like you are suggesting.

Dudeface wrote:
As a quick fix, fully agree with Semper. Ignore modifiers as a flat wording, no +/- and the better shots in the ork army get higher base to show it. Dakka goes back to assault but with the extra shots at half range because why not. Suddenly shootas and the like aren't complete deadweight but simultaneously an ork gun line isn't suddenly going to take over the world.

To the complaints about people's subfactions being ignored, I agree it's a poor design that some armies remove other armies free rulrs stuff. Maybe they shouldn't have free rules stuff in the first place.

Maybe make the rule "Orks models ignore modifiers to hit when making shooting attacks, both positive and negative, unless specifically stated by another rule".

So you change targeting squigs, Freebootas, etc to include the line "this rule ignores (whatever you call the rule) rule". Or bring them in line with things like the Dragsta which changes the Ballistic Skill rather than the dice roll itself.

Orks get their bonuses where appropriate, but leaves the door open for other factions to have certain rules to ignore it in the future (regardless of whether that happens or not, so it isn't a "that's unfair" situation).

 Grimskul wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
As a quick fix, fully agree with Semper. Ignore modifiers as a flat wording, no +/- and the better shots in the ork army get higher base to show it. Dakka goes back to assault but with the extra shots at half range because why not. Suddenly shootas and the like aren't complete deadweight but simultaneously an ork gun line isn't suddenly going to take over the world.

To the complaints about people's subfactions being ignored, I agree it's a poor design that some armies remove other armies free rulrs stuff. Maybe they shouldn't have free rules stuff in the first place.

That does bring into question how you would change the Freebooterz trait, as that functionally makes it useless. Unless you word it so it boosts the characteristic into being one higher rather than being + to hit modifier?

Get rid of them, all of them. But yes add one to the BS has the same outcome.

I can buy into ignoring -1 to hit for Orkz. In my mind when an ork is shooting it's a lot different then a trooper from any other army. Other armies use sights, practiced firing drills.*cough*..aim. Orks don't, they point in the general direction and create dakka. I don't see how some smoke, or flashy dance moves is going change those odds.

In my homebrew, DDD makes it so Orks ignore the first -1 to hit modifier when shooting, in an environment where to hit modifiers are not capped (but more regulated who can get it). It does work pretty well.

Something similar to 9th edition would be... Orks always count as having one more positive hit modifier than they would usually have when determining wether they suffer a to hit penalty.

That isn't a bad idea per-say, but it still boils down to a problem with how much -1 there is floating around in the game. Simply placing some factions in cover grants them -2 to hit. I really don't see any option besides "Orkz always hit on 5s".

What I would rather see is most ork guns return to assault type, and then orks get a universal +1 to-hit when within half range. This represents the large volume of inaccurate fire becoming more of a threat the closer the distance.
It should still be harder to hit stealth units than fully visible ones, even if you are only laying down suppressive fire, or sending up motivational fire as the orks do.

kingpbjames wrote:What I would rather see is most ork guns return to assault type, and then orks get a universal +1 to-hit when within half range.

But please you gotta read the thread. What do you think about what OP said below about half range?

SemperMortis wrote:
+1 to hit while in Dakka range doesn't help at all, and to be blunt the entire idea of Dakka range is stupid and whomever invented it at GW should be forbidden from writing ork rules from now on. A shoota is 18' range, that means Dakka range is 9'. Turn 1 I start at a minimum of 24' away, they can only move 5, so I literally have ZERO chance of getting a unit of shoota boyz into "dakka" range turn 1, Turn 2 if I do get them into range i'm now 9' or less away....I don't want to kill the unit closest to me because then my charge is going to be longer and unless you dramatically buff shoota boyz I want them in CC more than I want them shooting.

For a Big shoota and lootas...

Spoiler:

.its not as bad but its still fundamentally silly. I have to move a Lootas unit out of cover they deployed in (By necessity) turn 1 to get within 24' range for +1 to hit...Which almost guarantees they go back to a 5+ to hit because of how much terrain and -1 to hit mechanics are in the game at present. Not to mention if there are multiple -1 to hits (Terrain and army rule) they still go to a 6+ to hit. But lets assume under optimal circumstances they get within 24' range without losing a model and get the dakka buff you mentioned, a 140pt loota unit gets 24 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds and 6dmg Vs a simple T7 3+ vehicle, give them the prevalent buffs we see all over the place of +1 armor, ignore 1dmg etc and its worse. Or against Marine Infantry its 4 dead infantry...unless they are in cover then its 2.6

As far as horde style shooting buffs, sounds good on paper but thanks to GW's anti-horde mindset it will never be useful

.

In eager for June, to find out if Ork Shootas will just be firefight 5+ and Big Shootas will be ap5+/at6+, or whatever it is they’re doing in tenth. Those are Epic stats.

And yes I did buff them. I think it’s better over all if they have 5+ shooting; there’s nothing wrong with that.

 kingpbjames wrote:
What I would rather see is most ork guns return to assault type, and then orks get a universal +1 to-hit when within half range. This represents the large volume of inaccurate fire becoming more of a threat the closer the distance.
It should still be harder to hit stealth units than fully visible ones, even if you are only laying down suppressive fire, or sending up motivational fire as the orks do.

As already mentioned, the problem with that is the relatively short range of all ork guns and the fact that the dedicated ork shooting units DONT want to be in half range of the enemy. Lootas melt under bolter fire let alone dedicated anti-infantry weapons, Tankbustas are the same. Shoota boys are just boys with a shoota which makes them pathetic. and of course you have to tie all that in with the fact that orkz are rather slow as a foot slogging army. Base movement for us is now 5' because apparently normal humans are faster than us. So Turn 1, even if you advanced and rolled a 6, you are still out of half range of the enemy on most maps.

Fun math though, if you got a blob of 30 shoota boys into half range and they each get 3 shots (new dakka rule) and they get buffed to BS4 because they are in half range; it ends up as 90 shots, 45 hits, 22.5 wounds and 7dmg vs Marines. (less if in cover). So 240pts of Boyz kills 3.5 Marines or 63pts. And that is under optimal conditions. That just isn't a good amount of dmg. Lootas are very similar if not worse because larger units of them draw a lot more firepower thanks to their relatively high cost per model and the fact that they lack armor or special rules to make them more durable.

SemperMortis wrote:

 kingpbjames wrote:
What I would rather see is most ork guns return to assault type, and then orks get a universal +1 to-hit when within half range. This represents the large volume of inaccurate fire becoming more of a threat the closer the distance.
It should still be harder to hit stealth units than fully visible ones, even if you are only laying down suppressive fire, or sending up motivational fire as the orks do.

As already mentioned, the problem with that is the relatively short range of all ork guns and the fact that the dedicated ork shooting units DONT want to be in half range of the enemy.

Why not? Even shooting Orks have the stats to bully certain units. Playing up close and aggressive should be what you want to do as an Ork player, not play like Tau.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 kingpbjames wrote:
What I would rather see is most ork guns return to assault type, and then orks get a universal +1 to-hit when within half range. This represents the large volume of inaccurate fire becoming more of a threat the closer the distance.
It should still be harder to hit stealth units than fully visible ones, even if you are only laying down suppressive fire, or sending up motivational fire as the orks do.

As already mentioned, the problem with that is the relatively short range of all ork guns and the fact that the dedicated ork shooting units DONT want to be in half range of the enemy.

Why not? Even shooting Orks have the stats to bully certain units. Playing up close and aggressive should be what you want to do as an Ork player, not play like Tau.

Historically, fluff wise and game wise orkz have always been a combined arms army which could focus on shooting or CC. Lootas in multiple editions have been feared, our artillery was very strong, Tankbustas use to be efficient. The orkz fluff wise are a shooting heavy army, fighting an entire war against Tau called the War of Dakka where the ork warboss out dakka'd the tau.

As far as "bully certain units" i mean...yeah, the weak ones which aren't played or are just there as speed bumps. Dedicated anti-infantry weapons exist for orkz atm. Our best ranged anti-tank is single mek guns which just aren't as scary as they should be. Shoota boys are not taken in a competitive game ever, same for flashgitz. Lootas have a niche as an objective holder who scores "Get da good bitz" but even then the job is done better and cheaper by grots.

The best shooting orkz have had this edition was speedwaaagh orkz using buggies and +1 to hit Freeboota trait.

 kingpbjames wrote:
What I would rather see is most ork guns return to assault type, and then orks get a universal +1 to-hit when within half range. This represents the large volume of inaccurate fire becoming more of a threat the closer the distance.
It should still be harder to hit stealth units than fully visible ones, even if you are only laying down suppressive fire, or sending up motivational fire as the orks do.

Sorry, I think I didn't finish this thought completely. I have been reading this thread from the start and I get that a "within half range" bonus is worthless as is.
However, what if we added 12" to the range stat of most ork weapons or all dakka weapons or something? That way orks can take pot shots whenever there is clear LOS and it also moves the half-range point up considerably.
I've been reading the Death or Glory Commissar Cain book and it repeatedly points out that orks open fire well before they're within their weapon's effective range. This could translate to the tabletop with extended range and terrible accuracy that improves at half range.

SemperMortis mentioned that orks are relatively slow which also makes no sense. The frontline orks should be plenty faster than humans. They're like gorillas.

SemperMortis wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 kingpbjames wrote:
What I would rather see is most ork guns return to assault type, and then orks get a universal +1 to-hit when within half range. This represents the large volume of inaccurate fire becoming more of a threat the closer the distance.
It should still be harder to hit stealth units than fully visible ones, even if you are only laying down suppressive fire, or sending up motivational fire as the orks do.

As already mentioned, the problem with that is the relatively short range of all ork guns and the fact that the dedicated ork shooting units DONT want to be in half range of the enemy.

Why not? Even shooting Orks have the stats to bully certain units. Playing up close and aggressive should be what you want to do as an Ork player, not play like Tau.

Historically, fluff wise and game wise orkz have always been a combined arms army which could focus on shooting or CC. Lootas in multiple editions have been feared, our artillery was very strong, Tankbustas use to be efficient. The orkz fluff wise are a shooting heavy army, fighting an entire war against Tau called the War of Dakka where the ork warboss out dakka'd the tau.

As far as "bully certain units" i mean...yeah, the weak ones which aren't played or are just there as speed bumps. Dedicated anti-infantry weapons exist for orkz atm. Our best ranged anti-tank is single mek guns which just aren't as scary as they should be. Shoota boys are not taken in a competitive game ever, same for flashgitz. Lootas have a niche as an objective holder who scores "Get da good bitz" but even then the job is done better and cheaper by grots.

The best shooting orkz have had this edition was speedwaaagh orkz using buggies and +1 to hit Freeboota trait.

Orks CAN be made to be tougher. It sounds like that's your primary problem with a bonus that gets enabler when being closer.

Orks are slow because they have proportionally shorter legs.

That being said guardsmen IMHO should also be slower, it is kinda hilarious they are as fast as Space Marines.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Orks CAN be made to be tougher. It sounds like that's your primary problem with a bonus that gets enabler when being closer.

There is fundamentally no way to make Orkz "Tougher" without screwing over the dynamic of the army entirely. The primary problem with the bonus isn't that orkz aren't tough enough, its that its not a big enough bonus to entice people into using ranged options. Go ahead and make Lootas tougher, i'm assuming you mean a 4+ or even a 3+ armor save, well how is that going to translate into points? They will get appreciably more expensive which makes them a more beneficial target and their dmg, even with +1 to hit at half range is still so lackluster that they just aren't worth taking.

A Simple solution of +1 to BS at half range won't fix anything at all. A blanket rule like we had in 8th (6s always hit) updated to reflect 9th edition and soon to be 10th edition dakka would be 5s always hit and that would fix a lot of problems with ork shooting.

SemperMortis wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Orks CAN be made to be tougher. It sounds like that's your primary problem with a bonus that gets enabler when being closer.

There is fundamentally no way to make Orkz "Tougher" without screwing over the dynamic of the army entirely. The primary problem with the bonus isn't that orkz aren't tough enough, its that its not a big enough bonus to entice people into using ranged options. Go ahead and make Lootas tougher, i'm assuming you mean a 4+ or even a 3+ armor save, well how is that going to translate into points?

Why do we need to make them cost more with a better save? Nobody is gonna throw a fit over Orks covered in a bunch of junk get a better save.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Orks CAN be made to be tougher. It sounds like that's your primary problem with a bonus that gets enabler when being closer.

There is fundamentally no way to make Orkz "Tougher" without screwing over the dynamic of the army entirely. The primary problem with the bonus isn't that orkz aren't tough enough, its that its not a big enough bonus to entice people into using ranged options. Go ahead and make Lootas tougher, i'm assuming you mean a 4+ or even a 3+ armor save, well how is that going to translate into points?

Why do we need to make them cost more with a better save? Nobody is gonna throw a fit over Orks covered in a bunch of junk get a better save.

You are 100% wrong on that assertion. GW Nerfed ork boyz hard this edition, and i mean HARD! They took away horde bonuses, they took away mob bonuses, they nerfed KFF into the ground, they nerfed Painboy, they nerfed stratagems for boyz, and yet you still had players throwing tantrums that T5 was going to break the game and make orkz the most powerful faction in the game bar none, they even complained so loudly that GW went ahead and increased boyz points from 7 to 9. How many tournament lists have shown up with boyz in any kind of real numbers? If you gave ork shooting units a 3+ save you would have the internet on fire screaming for nerfs to orkz.

But again, even if you gave lootas a 3+ save, they still wouldn't be worth much because their dmg is abysmal and a single -1 to hit nerfs their damage by 50%. Giving them that half range rule would definitely benefit them specifically but it wouldn't address the other plethora of ork shooting units and weapons that would still suck.

SemperMortis wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Orks CAN be made to be tougher. It sounds like that's your primary problem with a bonus that gets enabler when being closer.

There is fundamentally no way to make Orkz "Tougher" without screwing over the dynamic of the army entirely. The primary problem with the bonus isn't that orkz aren't tough enough, its that its not a big enough bonus to entice people into using ranged options. Go ahead and make Lootas tougher, i'm assuming you mean a 4+ or even a 3+ armor save, well how is that going to translate into points?

Why do we need to make them cost more with a better save? Nobody is gonna throw a fit over Orks covered in a bunch of junk get a better save.

You are 100% wrong on that assertion. GW Nerfed ork boyz

We're not talking about what GW did

No, we are talking about "nobody is gonna throw a fit over orkz" that just isn't true. Everytime Orkz get a competitive build you have the same people rushing forward to scream that the sky is falling. My favorite example is still Mozrog. You had players screaming that this would be the end of the game, balance thrown to the wind, clearly this is just a push for sales!

And what happened? Turns out he wasn't even competitive, but GW still nerfed him anyway.

SemperMortis wrote:
No, we are talking about "nobody is gonna throw a fit over orkz" that just isn't true. Everytime Orkz get a competitive build you have the same people rushing forward to scream that the sky is falling. My favorite example is still Mozrog. You had players screaming that this would be the end of the game, balance thrown to the wind, clearly this is just a push for sales!

And what happened? Turns out he wasn't even competitive, but GW still nerfed him anyway.

Aren't orks currently in the top third almost top quarter of armies right now? How much higher do they need to be buffed? If we have to buff ork shooting though we should be able to do it in a way that doesn't suddenly make orks some of the most efficient antiaircraft in the world, ignore dense cover, and bypass unit rules. Perhaps though it could be a culture option? Rather than being an innate rule to all orks we make it their culture and also modify the Waaagh for a shooting one too?

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
No, we are talking about "nobody is gonna throw a fit over orkz" that just isn't true. Everytime Orkz get a competitive build you have the same people rushing forward to scream that the sky is falling. My favorite example is still Mozrog. You had players screaming that this would be the end of the game, balance thrown to the wind, clearly this is just a push for sales!

And what happened? Turns out he wasn't even competitive, but GW still nerfed him anyway.

Aren't orks currently in the top third almost top quarter of armies right now? How much higher do they need to be buffed? If we have to buff ork shooting though we should be able to do it in a way that doesn't suddenly make orks some of the most efficient antiaircraft in the world, ignore dense cover, and bypass unit rules. Perhaps though it could be a culture option? Rather than being an innate rule to all orks we make it their culture and also modify the Waaagh for a shooting one too?

Orkz always hit on 5s wouldn't make them suddenly the best anti-air faction in the game....for starters ....they hit on 5s. Space Marines against -1 to hit are hitting on 4s.....and also have access to a plethora of +1 to hits and re-roll hits/wounds.

As far as Orkz being top 3rd...maybe. They have the ability to place and to win tournaments but they don't make regular appearances in the top 4. On 40kstats Orkz have placed 4 times in the last 10 tournaments, 2 first place finishes, a 2nd and a 3rd. 4 placings out of 40. I would argue they are possibly top 3rd of the game, but definitely not top 4th of the game. Custodes, GSC, Marines, Chaos Demons and IG are a tier above.

Important to note though, in those 4 Ork lists that won an event guess how much ranged firepower they had?
Michael Mann: Had a big shoota on his Burna boyz and Ghaz's personal gun, he also had 2 units of bikers with 18' dakka guns. So basically nothing.
Lukas Troller: He had 3 Killrigs which have a Eavy Lobba, the weirdboy gun and a Harpoon gun on them. That was basically his entire ranged firepower, and please note, the firepower is mostly ignored, the weirdboy tower is the only thing that does dmg in most games and thats because it AUTO HITS.
Jack Masters: Ghaz's personal gun, a warboss on warbike with dakkaguns, 2 big shootas on trukks and a unit of meganobz with Kustom shootas (Poor mans stormbolters). That was basically it.
Jake Gonzalez: 2 killrigs....yep that was it.

Buffing ork shooting isn't going to suddenly break the game, at best it gives Ork players an incentive to actually bring ranged units. Take note, not a single ranged unit exists in any of those 4 lists, the best you have is a CC units with a small ranged option.

Lots of lists forego shooting, that's not a valid argument b

SemperMortis wrote:


Orkz always hit on 5s wouldn't make them suddenly the best anti-air faction in the game....for starters ....they hit on 5s. Space Marines against -1 to hit are hitting on 4s.....and also have access to a plethora of +1 to hits and re-roll hits/wounds.

As far as Orkz being top 3rd...maybe. They have the ability to place and to win tournaments but they don't make regular appearances in the top 4. On 40kstats Orkz have placed 4 times in the last 10 tournaments, 2 first place finishes, a 2nd and a 3rd. 4 placings out of 40. I would argue they are possibly top 3rd of the game, but definitely not top 4th of the game. Custodes, GSC, Marines, Chaos Demons and IG are a tier above.

Important to note though, in those 4 Ork lists that won an event guess how much ranged firepower they had?
Michael Mann: Had a big shoota on his Burna boyz and Ghaz's personal gun, he also had 2 units of bikers with 18' dakka guns. So basically nothing.
Lukas Troller: He had 3 Killrigs which have a Eavy Lobba, the weirdboy gun and a Harpoon gun on them. That was basically his entire ranged firepower, and please note, the firepower is mostly ignored, the weirdboy tower is the only thing that does dmg in most games and thats because it AUTO HITS.
Jack Masters: Ghaz's personal gun, a warboss on warbike with dakkaguns, 2 big shootas on trukks and a unit of meganobz with Kustom shootas (Poor mans stormbolters). That was basically it.
Jake Gonzalez: 2 killrigs....yep that was it.

Buffing ork shooting isn't going to suddenly break the game, at best it gives Ork players an incentive to actually bring ranged units. Take note, not a single ranged unit exists in any of those 4 lists, the best you have is a CC units with a small ranged option.

I didn't say best, I said most efficient. There is a difference. They would have zero consequences from targeting them. Considering that the 50% drop in efficiency from -1 to hit is a huge deal in this thread, I would think dropping it to 0 might also seem a bit much.

It's not a maybe on those placings. By GW's own record keeping orks currently sit at a 53% win rate which is pretty much ideal. Out of all 26 factions they sit in 7th place. 7/26 comes out to about 27% or just outside the top quarter. You can argue all you want about how you feel about the army but the facts are clear on the win rate. They are in the top 1/3 and just outside the top 1/4.

We've established now that the orks rules place them at a very solid tier just outside the best. Stacking on buffs with no drawbacks will push it the army closer to that overtuned level. Simply put if we're trying to make the shooting viable, it probably shouldn't be stacked on a melee option that is already carrying better than most other armies.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

I didn't say best, I said most efficient. There is a difference. They would have zero consequences from targeting them. Considering that the 50% drop in efficiency from -1 to hit is a huge deal in this thread, I would think dropping it to 0 might also seem a bit much.

It's not a maybe on those placings. By GW's own record keeping orks currently sit at a 53% win rate which is pretty much ideal. Out of all 26 factions they sit in 7th place. 7/26 comes out to about 27% or just outside the top quarter. You can argue all you want about how you feel about the army but the facts are clear on the win rate. They are in the top 1/3 and just outside the top 1/4.

We've established now that the orks rules place them at a very solid tier just outside the best. Stacking on buffs with no drawbacks will push it the army closer to that overtuned level. Simply put if we're trying to make the shooting viable, it probably shouldn't be stacked on a melee option that is already carrying better than most other armies.

They still wouldn't be the most efficient since they are still lackluster at best at dealing ranged dmg. And realistically, at the moment most lists aren't taking flyers at all, at least on the competitive level.

As far as W/L ratio, I hate that metric since it doesn't really give you a real picture of what is happening at the tournaments. A Combination of W/L, top placing and a meta analysis of the players themselves tends to be the best metric and its very labor intensive.

For Orkz though specifically the analysis is pretty clear to see, the last big GT was Rocky Mountain with 144 players showing up, the ork players were as follows,

Michael Mann: ranked 126 last year, 310 this year, a noted competitive player who has been playing orkz as one of his primaries for years.
Aaron Donoho: 2 Ork GTs in last 2 years.
Andrew Brozek: Exclusively plays orkz, Ranked 5399 last year. (5 ork GTs last year alone)
Ben Jurek: Noted Ork player, Ranked 70th Last year, currently ranked 141st.
Cedric Barroso: 2 Ork GTs in last 2 years.
James Davis: Ranked 1142 right now, last year 1070th. 5 Ork GTs last year alone
Logan Jones: 1508 this year, 4857th last year, only plays orkz (4 GTs last year)
Nathan Blankenship: 930 this year, 1097th last year, 5 Ork GTs last year.
Nick Herrera: 1st GT in 2 years.
Tom Shaw: 1st GT in 2 years

So you had, at grand tournaments: 2 newbies, 2 relatively newish players and the rest are ork veterans including two of the best in the game. Point being that Orkz tend to be more of an experienced crowd rather than first timers since it is...labor intensive to start an ork army. Also, takes a certain mindset to play orkz. Compare that to SMs....

Alan Estrada: BA player for life. Very experienced.
Andrew Haley: SA, first GT in 2 years.
Brandon Roddy: IH, Competitive player, first 2 IH tournaments in 2 years.
Brian Logan: IH, 1st GT ever.
Brian Wesley: DA, 4 Gts last year, 2 this year.
Caelan Fulkerson: IH, 1st GT as SM in 2 years
Christopher Robison: IF, 2 GTs in 2 years. Both as IF.
Colton Titus: Space Sharks, 2 GTs in 2 years, did bad in both.
Donald Randall: Salamanders, 1st GT in 2 years.
Grant Acosta: DA player, experienced.
Grant Pestka: SW, 1st GT in 2 years.
Hilliard Chesteen: BT, 1st GT in 2 years.
Jake Fuqua: SW, 1st GT as Marines in 2 years.
Jamie Beaton: DA, 1st GT as Marines in 2 years (Competitive player)
Jim Milks: BA, 1st GT in 2 years.
Kyle Daley: IH, 2nd GT as IH in 2 years.

I'm going to stop there because i'm only on like #80 out of 144, but this point is that Marines as a whole are currently sitting at around less than a 50% win/loss ratio on 40kstats.com but if you look at tournament wins... those same last 10 events, Marines have placed much better than Orkz, I think 8 top 4 placings out of 40, or roughly 20%. But once you look at player experience ...there is a bit of a difference. 10 Ork players, only 2 newbies, 2 newish level and 6 experienced players including 2 beasts. 16 Space Marine players, more than 3/4ths of whom have played 2 or fewer GTs as Marines in the last 2 years.

So generally speaking, from the 1 event I analyzed (biggest recent event) we can see that Orkz average significantly more experience than Marine players and even with that big edge in experience they aren't placing as often as Marine players even though the faction as a whole has a better W/L ratio than Marines. So to say that Orks are currently top 3rd is a bit misleading since we are ignoring a host of factors and just utilizing W/L ratio which as shown above can be misleading. From a pure power standpoint I would put orkz easily in the top half, maybe even in the top 3rd but nowhere near the top 25% and ALL of those lists that have placed have done so with basically zero shooting. Buffing ork shooting wouldn't drastically increase these lists since they functionally don't have shooting to begin with. A Killrig suddenly hitting always on 5s with its big lobba and harpoon gun isn't going to drastically increase their dmg, Squigriders hitting on 5s with their spears at 12' isn't going to break the game either. The units who would benefit the most from this rule, Lootas, shootaboyz, Tankbustas(kind of) are basically not seen at the moment. Mek gunz already hit on 4s, Flashgitz already hit on 4s, Killakanz already hit on 4s etc, so basically it would buff units which are trash tier and give me a reason to fire more of my guns as opposed to ignoring them. Also it would make the Morkanaut not hurt itself more often than the enemy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Lots of lists forego shooting, that's not a valid argument b

Generally speaking, a faction which has more shooting options than melee options isn't supposed to eschew shooting almost entirely because its not reliable.

The mortal wound on 1 thing can easily be solved by "unmodified roll of 1." Done.

The disparity with modifiers and rerolls on different BS and armor saves is a different matter entirely.

Rerolls benefit lower BS disproportionately. Modifiers give an advantage to higher saves and a big penalty to lower BS. The infamous example is a 2+ armor save with a +1 modifier. 5+ BS with a -1 modifier is another example of a disproportionate impact. These stats were better balanced before modifiers became a thing.

I agree Ted. And realistically I think the only solution is to give Orkz a universal rule which is always hits on 5s, otherwise you frequently run into -1 to hit and half your shooting is useless. The other solution would be to buff ork shooting to make that 50% hit worth something but then you run into the problem of armies/units without -1 to hit being decimated which is what I don't want to see happen either.

As you mentioned as well, Rerolls to hit would be nice except its not very useful on a bad BS army and again if you are facing off against a -1 to hit. Assuming re-roll 1s which is what badmoons used to give:
(Assuming dakka Range)
10 Shoota boyz at BS5 = 10 hits
10 Shoota boyz at BS5 W/reroll 1s = 11.6
10 Shoota boyz at BS6 = 5 hits
10 Shoota boyz at BS6 W/Reroll 1s = 5.27

going from 5 hits to 5.27 isn't what I would consider a "buff" and keep in mind that is on 30 shots! To average 1 extra hit that unit of 10 Shoota boys at -1 to hit would need to shoot 4 times! Think about what I just said, the unit would need 4 full shoota phases to average 1 extra hit. Make it Re-roll 1s and 2s and its 2 full turns to average 1 extra hit. Realistically the only beneficial buff would be reroll ALL misses but at that point you are functionally at BS5 without -1 to hit. But instead of just rolling dice once you are now making 2 separate dice rolls for a difference of 8.33%