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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/06 19:23:45
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Been Around the Block
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Hello everyone,
I have my EC army almost fully painted now and had one or the other game already, which is why I turn to you noble Rule Masters
My problem is the always fight first, fight last etc. etc.
If I get charged and my troop has always fights first, who goes first? What if i heroically intervene and have always fight first up? Always fights first and charger fight simultaniously?
Is there some kind of table somewhere out there like an initiative order or something?
Thanks for trying to help me picture it ^^
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/06 19:55:34
Subject: Re:Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Regular Dakkanaut
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There is. For some reason I can't find a link to it from their website but a google search for " 40k designers commentary strikes first" still links to it:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf
I only downloaded it again a few weeks back, so I've no idea why its not showing on the community site.
I hope that helps.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/06 20:30:08
Subject: Re:Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Been Around the Block
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Thank you!
So if two "Fight first" units collide (for example a charger into my "Fight first" EC) then he fights first with his charger and afterwards, if i am still alive, i fight back (so it doesn't bring me any advantage in that case, but if the fight continues, then i get to hit him first, as he isnt a charger anymore)
Correct?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/06 20:50:59
Subject: Re:Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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LeRufus wrote:Thank you!
So if two "Fight first" units collide (for example a charger into my "Fight first" EC) then he fights first with his charger and afterwards, if i am still alive, i fight back (so it doesn't bring me any advantage in that case, but if the fight continues, then i get to hit him first, as he isnt a charger anymore)
Correct? 
in a one on one fight between Attack 1 and Defender 1, yes, your fights first doesn't help you in that 1st round of melee.
However, there are several areas it does help with:
A) multiple combatants: say your charged by Attacker 1 and Attacker 2. The normal flow is A1, A2, D1. However, if D1 has fights first, the flow then becomes A1, D1, A2. your fights first defender gets to act on the same priority as your attackers, he just gets first pick to activate a unit to fight. This remains true if their are multiple fights occurring (say, A1 into D1, A2 into D2), He activated A1 and attacks D1, but you can choose to activate D2, and attack and damage A2 BEFORE it can attack you, even though A2 charged. So, it can radically change the attacking players strategy for the fight phase, as he has to now weigh up which unit (A1 or A2) he wants to ensure gets a "free" attack and which he must risk getting clobbered before it can attack
B) multi-round Fights. Attacker 1 charges Defender 1, they fight, both sides survive, and the fight continues into the next round. In the normal flow of that next round, A1 still gets to act first, as in the "standard" priority phase, its the non-active player to gets to activate first (and in your turn, hes the non-active player). Fights First overules this, though, as D1 with fights first has priority over A1.
So, it wont let you normally attack before your charger does, but it can do if the circumstances are right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/07 07:25:32
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Yep. It might seem not so useful in first glance but having used assault heavy army vs slaanesh force it actually impacted quite a lot. You just need units that are threat when doing melee attacks.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/07 10:12:00
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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just think how much simpler it would be if they applied an initiative modifier to some weapons, to charging etc in stead of "fights first" or "fights last"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/07 13:34:25
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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leopard wrote:just think how much simpler it would be if they applied an initiative modifier to some weapons, to charging etc in stead of "fights first" or "fights last"
You mean like every unit has a value from say 1-10, and then you get a bonus when you charge, you get a bonus when in hard cover, and multiple weapons would offer additional bonuses or penalties, and then there would additional rules from WLT, strats, relics, which add, subtract, double or halve that value. Yes, that would be much simpler than it is now.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/07 13:35:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/07 14:59:04
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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p5freak wrote:leopard wrote:just think how much simpler it would be if they applied an initiative modifier to some weapons, to charging etc in stead of "fights first" or "fights last"
You mean like every unit has a value from say 1-10, and then you get a bonus when you charge, you get a bonus when in hard cover, and multiple weapons would offer additional bonuses or penalties, and then there would additional rules from WLT, strats, relics, which add, subtract, double or halve that value. Yes, that would be much simpler than it is now.
sarcasm detector goes ping! (though nicely done I thought)
the thinking is that units already have the Initiative stat, you are already looking it up in melee, if say charging was a +3, maybe being behind some sort of fortification was a -2 to whoever fights over it then a few weapons get +/-5 and keep it at that then actually yes it is pretty simple.
I mean its GW so you would end up with a lot of stats for "+3 bonus if painted green on alternative Thursdays but only if fighting models painted blue" but they have done this before (older editions of Warhammer had exactly this) and it works pretty well.
specifically because you do not have to worry about how such interacts when you hit other models or when you end up with "always fights first" and "always fights last", the models have stat lines, the point is why not use them?
you know, same as how everything else in the game is quite simple until some badly written and poorly thought through stratagems, weapon rules etc get overlaid, key is not going mad with layer upon layer of modifiers that vary in game but suddenly you get quite a nice system for say assaulting through terrain without grenades, its just a penalty that maybe the grenades ignore, or even provide a bonus that cancels it out so troops with them charging troops without in the open get the benefit
Warhammer I think had a bonus for charging, and a few weapons got bonuses, mostly for things like pikes & spears that had a longer reach, wasn't hard to keep track of about the only special rule some of the bonuses had was "only in the first round of combat"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/08 04:44:05
Subject: Re:Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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The chargers fight first and then everyone else alternating between players was also simple, until GW came up with fight first, fight normal and fight last abilities. Thats how GW is. They can make it simple, but then overcomplicate it over time, overloading it with additional rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/08 07:43:30
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Init stat would add up as another nerf to orks though who ends up often strike last even when charging. Just like last time i stat was around.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/08 14:18:48
Subject: Re:Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Confessor Of Sins
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p5freak wrote:The chargers fight first and then everyone else alternating between players was also simple, until GW came up with fight first, fight normal and fight last abilities. Thats how GW is. They can make it simple, but then overcomplicate it over time, overloading it with additional rules.
If we, as gamers, cannot handle 3 sets of fighting, then we need to find a new pastime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/10 08:07:28
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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I never have a problem with these 3 steps after GW clerified with the FAQs.
It is a very big part of the SW battlestyle if you lean into fight last effects. And it makes for fun minigames of multicharges and the interrupt stratagem. Fun run fun.
It also mostly comes up on the forums when new players do the big brain move to choose a fight first warlord trait not realising that charging units gets right first baked into the rules. Although it can be good if you have it on many units, multiple rounds or combat (rare in 9th edition) and right last effects to supplement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/10 09:33:14
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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tneva82 wrote:Init stat would add up as another nerf to orks though who ends up often strike last even when charging. Just like last time i stat was around.
Hence why you have a modifier when charging, set so that generally any factions line troops charging any other factions line troops would hit first.
if you roll back through the mists of time a lot of this stuff used to be done with just the basic stats and situational modifiers not special rules, some (not all) of the issues came out of trying to "simplify" things with special rules and then having to add more to cover the bits that were missing etc
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/10 13:25:02
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Back in the day orks were I2 but I4 when charging. Still didn't help against all eldar who would hit first, wipe the engagement zone and not get hit back.
This system is simpler and has more interesting decision points in it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/11 18:03:53
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Back in the day orks were I2 but I4 when charging. Still didn't help against all eldar who would hit first, wipe the engagement zone and not get hit back.
Yup. The old system was trash, because 95% of the time it didn't matter, and then there was going from initiative 4 to 5 which was disproportionately powerful and in most cases decided the fight before it even started. Anyone who saw 2/3 of charging squad wiped out with power weapons before they managed to do anything knows how "fun" that was.
And then there were ork and necron elite melee squads, all with gak initiative, and you often wondered why did you bother taking these because even weaker equivalents of other races just laughed at them. Making parts of enemy army uninteractive and impossible to tackle no matter what choices you made is just bad mechanic, period.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/12 03:19:02
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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leopard wrote:tneva82 wrote:Init stat would add up as another nerf to orks though who ends up often strike last even when charging. Just like last time i stat was around.
Hence why you have a modifier when charging, set so that generally any factions line troops charging any other factions line troops would hit first.
if you roll back through the mists of time a lot of this stuff used to be done with just the basic stats and situational modifiers not special rules, some (not all) of the issues came out of trying to "simplify" things with special rules and then having to add more to cover the bits that were missing etc
Which orks had before. Modifier when charging. And still end up fighting last. As i said. Proven ork nerf from past  you didn't provide new unique system that's unproven. You provided something that has been before and which provenly put orks at distinct disadvantage. Better hand out something good for orks in return as they hardly deserve yet more nerfs.
Sure if modifier is like +10 with max initiave anybody having is 10...but then we are actually back to current and then why change?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/12 03:20:50
2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/12 09:35:52
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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tneva82 wrote:leopard wrote:tneva82 wrote:Init stat would add up as another nerf to orks though who ends up often strike last even when charging. Just like last time i stat was around.
Hence why you have a modifier when charging, set so that generally any factions line troops charging any other factions line troops would hit first.
if you roll back through the mists of time a lot of this stuff used to be done with just the basic stats and situational modifiers not special rules, some (not all) of the issues came out of trying to "simplify" things with special rules and then having to add more to cover the bits that were missing etc
Which orks had before. Modifier when charging. And still end up fighting last. As i said. Proven ork nerf from past  you didn't provide new unique system that's unproven. You provided something that has been before and which provenly put orks at distinct disadvantage. Better hand out something good for orks in return as they hardly deserve yet more nerfs.
Sure if modifier is like +10 with max initiave anybody having is 10...but then we are actually back to current and then why change?
problem is more that there seems no reason to have orks, or anyone actually at I2, especially creates that seem to have "born to fight" written right through them. whatever modifier system needs to make sure than normal troops charging normal troops of other factions will fight first baring other factors
orks should be at least the same initiative as humans, if a stat needs to be there showing them "slow of thinking" thats what the old four psychology stats were excellent for.
all wishing really, GW have been making this game for decades, by now it should be perfect that it isn't shows they have no interest/ability in making it so
the other fix for low initiative armies is the "true horde" option but that gets very tedious for other reasons
better bet is probably going for a totally different action/reaction system but can't see it happening sadly
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/10/12 21:15:21
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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You know if you have trouble tracking this but you want a numbers system just mentaly have Inisiative between 1 2 and 3. (Fight last, Neutral and Fight First respectivly.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/12 21:16:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/11/18 18:47:13
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe
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This used to be handled so much easier with initiative stats. Higher initiative always goes first unless the opposing force has a rule that says otherwise.
All this "this unit has this special rule that only works in a very specific instance" is just nonsense.
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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/11/18 19:03:20
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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WarlordRob117 wrote:This used to be handled so much easier with initiative stats. Higher initiative always goes first unless the opposing force has a rule that says otherwise.
All this "this unit has this special rule that only works in a very specific instance" is just nonsense.
Did screw orks in particular though...Who were basically screwed getting to always strike last.
Apply strike last to your units and see how orks felt.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/11/19 13:27:50
Subject: Order of Fighting (Melee)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Huh? There aren't any that only work in one instance. Fights first, normal and last are three simple steps
It's an obvious way to allow into less than 4 be meaningful
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