Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They have zero synergy because they're still effectively tuned around the initial version of Canticles, based upon the number of units...but that was removed.

Unfortunately, until we have Electropriests moved to Troops or Servitors that aren't Kataphrons or any number of tweaks? It's going to be janky as hell.

What does moving Electropriests to Troops fix?

You can spam them, then, I guess?

Because spamming one or two powerhouse units is a great way to fix a Codex. /s

As comparing to not having any or too few power house units, and there for not having a working army in a game, where you have to either be better then everything else, have non interactive rules or have special rules that break the core rules? Yeah what tragedy if some armies were suddenly running 3 units of electro priests, the world would explode, as even with above avarge rolling they are much weaker then something like harlequin troups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

I have said plenty of times I want no faction secondaries for anyone. I don't want the firepower of Eldar or Tau, I just don't think SM should be able to ignore my AP-1 because that is all I get on my gauss flayers, maybe I'd be fine with SM having AoC if gauss weapons auto-wounded on 6s to hit all the time and had 1 less AP. I have also said that I want Flayed Ones to be AP- instead of -1 so it's not like I'm unwilling to reduce the lethality of Necrons where it makes sense. I don't know what you think is bringing down Necron VP rates from 95, but it seems a little far-fetched, I don't know I haven't played the current competitive mission set. I want a balanced, thematic and fun game. Gauss flayers being trash is not fun or thematic, poisonous lasguns with armourbane aren't thematic either. Removing sensible curbs to the insane damage output of AdMech is not fun either.

But that is not what you get. You do have super secondaries, and getting 95-97 VP with necrons practicaly requires no interaction from the opponent. That is what makes the necron so strong. Not the silent king being core. If on top of Ctan and the king, reqular immortals and warriors were doing T ignoring auto wounds on 6s, the army would be a 60%+ win rate army.

 vict0988 wrote:

I don't know what you think is bringing down Necron VP rates from 95, but it seems a little far-fetched, I don't know I haven't played the current competitive mission set. I want a balanced, thematic and fun game. Gauss flayers being trash is not fun or thematic, poisonous lasguns with armourbane aren't thematic either. Removing sensible curbs to the insane damage output of AdMech is not fun either.

You know what also is bad and doesn't work the way it does in the lore? Bolters. Also I understand that everyone can and will have an opinion on the matter. But If you don't know how necrons are right now, isn't talking and making arguments about rules changes, a bit over your pay check?

If you remove all the "extra" from books, what you are left is raw damge and raw damage efficiency. And I already seen how that works in 8th ed. It is not fun either.

If faction secondaries are removed from the game, I won't have super secondaries. Checkmate

The Newman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So non-Monster Synapse creatures in Leviathan just have zero benefits now?

As written, yes. I imagine their FAQ inbox has a lot of email right now.

And some people think GW is using a scalpel rather than their usual sledgehammer.

Karol wrote:
I was not joking. We could have had a good 5-6 pages of argument about how much does the marine noob effect impact the marine win rates. I could learn new words, and see pages of text and have a good time reading it.

And here one dude sits down, takes a few thousand results of games. Makes a graph, and say this is how it is, if you don't agree show your graphs, and lets face it, no one is going to do that. Lost content IMO.

So you're just here to argue for the sake of arguing and hate it when one side conclusively proves its point without letting you have a few more pages of arguing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
If you remove all the "extra" from books, what you are left is raw damge and raw damage efficiency. And I already seen how that works in 8th ed. It is not fun either.

Maybe for GW because they suck at game design. But for competent game designers it's absolutely possible to have a deep and interesting game without the obscene rules bloat of 9th.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So non-Monster Synapse creatures in Leviathan just have zero benefits now?

As written, yes. I imagine their FAQ inbox has a lot of email right now.

And some people think GW is using a scalpel rather than their usual sledgehammer.

Well you see sir, they've taken a sledgehammer and replaced the hammer head with a scalpel! So one is not incorrect for saying they are using a scalpel, they just aren't using said tool as it was intended.

The Newman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So non-Monster Synapse creatures in Leviathan just have zero benefits now?

As written, yes. I imagine their FAQ inbox has a lot of email right now.

Non-Monster Synapse creatures in Leviathan still get mini transhuman, cant be wounded on 1-2.

 p5freak wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So non-Monster Synapse creatures in Leviathan just have zero benefits now?

As written, yes. I imagine their FAQ inbox has a lot of email right now.

Non-Monster Synapse creatures in Leviathan still get mini transhuman, cant be wounded on 1-2.

That's not the case. The Leviathan adaption originally said Synapse got full transhuman and non-synapse got the 1-2 transhuman. The dataslate changed the first part to only apply to Monster synapse but that means non-Monster synapse models don't get any benefits at all. It may be an oversight, or it may be intentional. Hard to say for sure.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well you see sir, they've taken a sledgehammer and replaced the hammer head with a scalpel! So one is not incorrect for saying they are using a scalpel, they just aren't using said tool as it was intended.

Games Workshop: "Our scalpels need two hands!"

Aecus Decimus wrote:
So you're just here to argue for the sake of arguing and hate it when one side conclusively proves its point without letting you have a few more pages of arguing?

*looks at post history*

Pot, meet kettle...

I mean I assumed removing mini-Transhuman was intentional. But I guess they should have spelled it out.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well you see sir, they've taken a sledgehammer and replaced the hammer head with a scalpel! So one is not incorrect for saying they are using a scalpel, they just aren't using said tool as it was intended.

Games Workshop: "Our scalpels need two hands!"

Subtlety is otiose in a niche!

It's not that marine players entering GTs are all noobs completely brand new to the hobby. It's that marine players usually have less experience overall, as most people will play marines early on in their hobby journey.

Having less experience than someone doesn't necessarily mean you're a noob. But it does mean that you're likely to be outplayed by more experienced players at an event, who have likely progressed beyond marines to another faction.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well you see sir, they've taken a sledgehammer and replaced the hammer head with a scalpel! So one is not incorrect for saying they are using a scalpel, they just aren't using said tool as it was intended.

Games Workshop: "Our scalpels need two hands!"

Subtlety is otiose in a niche!

Well played sir. Well played.

Good to see that Starweavers have now sold enough to feel the sting of the nerf bat, but hey who reads Xenos books (well least till the start battering Space Marines)

artific3r wrote:
It's not that marine players entering GTs are all noobs completely brand new to the hobby. It's that marine players usually have less experience overall, as most people will play marines early on in their hobby journey.

Having less experience than someone doesn't necessarily mean you're a noob. But it does mean that you're likely to be outplayed by more experienced players at an event, who have likely progressed beyond marines to another faction.

So dragging out this article mentioned earlier:

https://www.stat-check.com/blog/do-new-space-marine-players-lose-more-than-other-factions

This guy talks about the win rate spread between casual and experienced, but doesn't link it to actual play figures. Marines might have less spread, but more casual players.

When I pull up UM on the dashboard Vets have a 47% WR and casuals have 31%. And then it states the overall is 37%. The average of 47 and 31 is 39, which means they lean casual.

When I go to the base dashboard and do UM there are 263 games as 'Newcomer' @ 31%, 133 as 'Experienced' @ 40% WR, and 104 as 'Veteran' @ 47% WR.

Tyranids are, respectively, 263 @ 54%, 1155 @ 58%, 865 @ 66%.

52% of UM are newcomer vs 33% of Tyranids.

So, marines do appear to have more inexperienced players at least in this cursory example.

EDIT : Nids at 33%. Not sure what happened to original figure. I'm getting a list for all factions shortly to see if this is just a fluke.

There appears to be a decent correlation between a high percentage of new players and low win rates with marines. Data as per dashboard with all dates ( 7/3 to 10/16 ) selected.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Good to see that Starweavers have now sold enough to feel the sting of the nerf bat, but hey who reads Xenos books (well least till the start battering Space Marines)

Can this garbage narrative die, please?