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Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

Something I've seen on various forums and Facebook pages as kind of a hot topic right now is whether or not it is acceptable to run third-party models (3D printed or otherwise) in 40k tournaments, and if so, what is the limitation? I've seen a few GT packs where they specifically state that at least 75% of a player's army must be official GW models. I'm kind of curious as to whether events you might have been to had any such restrictions. Obviously, modelling for advantage is not okay at any tournaments and this is not the thread to discuss that, but assuming the third party models are of appropriate dimensions, are tournaments in your local area(s) allowing them, and if so are there restrictions?

As for my opinion on the subject, I feel like as along as the models are easily distinguishable and pretty readily apparent what they are, they should be allowed. Obviously some of this would be at the TO's discretion to prevent modelling for advantage as well as making sure that the models indeed are easily identified. Requiring people to buy the expensive official models strikes me as somewhat of an elitist attitude that could keep new players away. I myself have a bunch of the Wargames Atlantic Les Grognards models, and they are easily identifiable as Infantry Squads (and the characters are easy enough to tell apart as well). I also have STL files for a lot of stuff (I could probably print an entire competitive Drukhari or AdMech army with the files I currently own, given enough resin and a new printer to replace my dead one). Why should I be required to spend a lot more money on the official stuff? I'd be curious to hear others' opinions on this as well; maybe I'm just a cheapskate or something.

Please feel free to discuss this (politely of course, let's not make the mods have to shut this down too quickly, eh?), as I think this is a topic worth talking about.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in fr
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot




Is this really a thing outside of GW's own events? I'm sure some pretentious dick of a local store owner has run an event like that but I can't say I've ever seen it happen in a major event.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/23 03:47:01


 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

Aecus Decimus wrote:
Is this really a thing outside of GW's own events? I'm sure some pretentious dick of a local store owner has run an event like that but I can't say I've ever seen it happen in a major event.

That's part of why I posted; I've seen one or two player packs from non-GW events that specified a requirement to have a certain percentage of your army's models be official GW models, but that's a small sample size and I wanted to find out if anyone else has encountered this.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander








Local tournies here required GW models or at least 40K looking models as Proxies. Part of the issue is that most proxy models are not store bought. I guess if the store sold Wargames Atlantic Raumjagers, those would be fine.


.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's pretty rare to see any restrictions like that outside of official GW tournaments. In a lot of cases, once a model is built and painted, it can be almost impossible to tell whether something is an official model or a 3d print anyway.

The one area where this is more often seen is with unreleased models. I think some tournaments banned counts-as Kill Rigs, for example, because nobody knew how big they should be until GW released the official model. I think there may be similar restrictions on the Votann Land Fortress at some tournaments for the same reason.
   
Made in ca
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader






Model requirements are not standardized outside of gw events. It entirely depends on the individual events, and the folks running them.

I've seen folks with 3d printed armies at events, and they really stand out, and look awful compared to official models (at least imo). But, I'm not against folks using them personally, everyone has different goals in the hobby.

But, you should be aware that some events won't allow obviously 3d printed stuff, and it's fair for event organizers to make their own rules for their events.

Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





Do you mean 3d printed proxies or 3d printed copies?

I 3d print models as proxies for GW models and I have always tried to be responsible when playing them at events. I make sure they are the correct height and general size if possible and also on the correct bases. This kind of thing I think can be hobby positive and I have never had an issue running them at events but the majority of models I will run will be GW. I've played against whole armies that are printed and its never good. Even though the models are distinguishable from each other they were not disinguishable as their own unit types. I kept making mistakes trying to remember which unit was which

However printed copies of the gw models is straight up theft and no one should be doing that.
Most tournaments will require you to approve your models before hand.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander








So I emailed GW and asked them about the validity of using Kasrkin still as Scions/stormtroopers at their events. The answer was no, because the models have been tied to the rules.

Looking over Adepticon's rules, and GW's, this also means you can't use Catachans or Kriegers as normal Imperial Guard/AM infantry, because they count as an "existing" army and you are not allowed to use an existing army's models to play with another army's rules. ( Adepticon's rules say this, I am interpreting the same thing as being for GW based on my query about Kasrkin).

I am curious to see what ITC's rules are. They have rules about proxies and counts as, but I must have missed the defintions of those.

For me a proxy would be a model that stands in....These Skaven are really imperial guardsmen.

Counts as would be something like....these Raumjager guys have flak armor and lasguns and counts as imperial guardsmen.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



South East London

Caveat: Everything I am about to say is my personal opinion and I know many, many others will disagree, but that's ok.

If I am playing in a Warhammer 40K tournament, I expect to play against Warhammer 40K miniatures. I class this as equally important as using Warhammer 40K rules, because the 2 are not, in my opinion, mutually exclusive. That means, models produced by Games Workshop. Conversions are fine, as long as there is no modelling for advantage, but no proxies and definitely not using a GW model intended to be something as something else (the Kasrkin example is a good one - they are not, and never have been Scions nor Stormtroopers and have different rules).

I don't care if the models were bought brand new, second hand, from GW or from a FLGS but if I am playing Warhammer 40K, I want to play Warhammer 40K as seen in White Dwarf, the Codexes, the rule book etc, and that means GW models.

And they absolutely have to be painted. Not well painted, but painted.

If I am spending my time, money etc to attend an event, I have certain expectations, and something as simple as turning up with the correct figures really shouldn't be that controversial.

I don't mind unpainted/proxie minis in friendly games if somebody is trying something out before buying the official models but that's not what tournaments are supposed to be about.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/25 14:39:21


"Dig in and wait for Winter" 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




General Hobbs wrote:


So I emailed GW and asked them about the validity of using Kasrkin still as Scions/stormtroopers at their events. The answer was no, because the models have been tied to the rules.

Looking over Adepticon's rules, and GW's, this also means you can't use Catachans or Kriegers as normal Imperial Guard/AM infantry, because they count as an "existing" army and you are not allowed to use an existing army's models to play with another army's rules. ( Adepticon's rules say this, I am interpreting the same thing as being for GW based on my query about Kasrkin).


Jesus, I'm glad I don't have any interest in playing in GW's events because that's stupid as hell. Apparently Krieg and Catachan HWTs can only be taken in HWS, not in infantry now? Now we're beyond "no model no rules" to "build it exactly the way the current box says or you can't play"?
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Honestly, I don't know of any other Wargame even half as chill about this as the 40K-community (outside official GW events I suppose)

Try going to an X-wing tournament or some such with some printed counts-as-TIE-Fighters of your own (or somebody's Patreon) design and unit/upgrade rules on your phone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/29 10:18:45


 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Sunny Side Up wrote:
Honestly, I don't know of any other Wargame even half as chill about this as the 40K-community (outside official GW events I suppose)

Try going to an X-wing tournament or some such with some printed counts-as-TIE-Fighters of your own (or somebody's Patreon) design and unit/upgrade rules on your phone.


It's not uncommon to see historical minis or 3rd party minis in lotr tournaments these days. In fact, these are usually a pretty welcome sight (if work went into them... not just, "these ugly warhammer miniatures are lotr today but I didn't bother to repaint them because when The Old World returns I'll go back" ).
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Sunny Side Up wrote:
Honestly, I don't know of any other Wargame even half as chill about this as the 40K-community (outside official GW events I suppose)

Try going to an X-wing tournament or some such with some printed counts-as-TIE-Fighters of your own (or somebody's Patreon) design and unit/upgrade rules on your phone.


I'm not sure why "other communities are even more toxic" is supposed to be a good defense of 40k?
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

I have never seen anyone having problems with alternate miniatures for X-Wing

in that case I guess it was more of a problem that you did not use the official rules, which will be a problem in any game
same as when go to a 40k event and the only rules you have are the battle scribe app on your phone

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





United States

This topic has been around for decades.

There is no such thing as "the tournament" or "a tournament" which shares a single rules set as monolithic entity. (Not saying YOU in particular hold this view, but many on this forum, after many many years, still don't get this)

Each person runs their own tournament, which is in turn their property, and thus their rules. Which means, the only correct answer you can objectively get is this - you have to ask a tournament organizer what his conditions to play in his event are.

The gambit of answers you'll get will range from "One tournament allows whatever to one tournament allows only GW models, with every combination in between."

Also, "Requiring people to buy the expensive official models strikes me as somewhat of an elitist attitude that could keep new players away. " This is an equally insulting attitude to assume whatever rationalized concept of a new player you have, must be a poor person, or that someone that owns "expensive models" is an elitest for collecting things they enjoy. (Looking down, morally, on poor and rich people alike without understanding their lives and values)

"Why should I be required to spend a lot more money on the official stuff?"

Because if you want to play in Tournament X run by Bob, you play by Bob's rules. It's that simple. Just like if you want to play a game at your house ( your property ) and you invite a friend over, you tell him that he can play whatever models he wants, and to also keep his feet off of your coffee table, and to not use swear words because your 7 year old is running around the house. This requires a (unfortunately not taught in modern schools) concept of property rights, which coincidently, 3D printing copies of copyrighted model ranges is stealing. ( I am not referring to printing original models as proxies ).

"maybe I'm just a cheapskate or something"

Nah. You just don't understand the concept of property rights, and their role in human flourishing. Also, being cheap can be perfectly moral, just as lavishly spending your money ( once you earned it) on "expensive" models that you value can also by moral.

When I was young, I used to download (steal) music, and I had a myriad of rationalized justifications to avoid any guilt ( which you cannot avoid, and builds a subconscious of immorality within you over time ). I learned to think better as I got older, and now I pay for the privilege to use other people's property as they see fit.

Ayn Rand "We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality" 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





An issue might be if a big tournament is chasing a GW sponsorship and they might expect them to crack down on unofficial models and proxies. That's the only reason I could see an attitude shift unless people are just a lot more fanboy crazy about their 'authentic' GW plastic or something these days.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






This requires a (unfortunately not taught in modern schools) concept of property rights, which coincidently, 3D printing copies of copyrighted model ranges is stealing. ( I am not referring to printing original models as proxies ).

"maybe I'm just a cheapskate or something"

Nah. You just don't understand the concept of property rights, and their role in human flourishing. Also, being cheap can be perfectly moral, just as lavishly spending your money ( once you earned it) on "expensive" models that you value can also by moral.

When I was young, I used to download (steal) music, and I had a myriad of rationalized justifications to avoid any guilt ( which you cannot avoid, and builds a subconscious of immorality within you over time ). I learned to think better as I got older, and now I pay for the privilege to use other people's property as they see fit.



Well said.

I have been on 3d printing sites/groups looking for conversion parts etc., and the people who want to print armies for pennies because they feel GW owes them cheaper products just astounds me.

I just wish we could have that happy medium where trying to make your army unique and cool is still allowed ( the 50-50 ratio rule worked well for that in GW's old days.

But the way they design models these days tells me that GW doesn't want people to do conversions etc anymore. TBH they might as well be making single cast models instead of making us put figures and vehicles together. I seriously hate some of the models because of the frustration it takes to construct them. If I wanted to build model kits that is the hobby I would be in.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

One of the challenges for people wanting to convert cool armies is the 'no models no rules' policy. So for example if you give your Painboy a meat cleaver, you can't even count it as a Choppa, because they can only be equipped with a Power Claw. This is not a problem with tournaments as such, more the ruleset; but you can't house rule at a tournament.

I'm conflicted about theft of intelluctual property; on the one hand it's a bit dodgy, but at this scale probably harmless - just like taping songs off the radio when you were a kid never hurt anyone. One thing's for sure, I would never refuse to play against a knock-off army, and I reckon most TO's will turn a blind eye unless there's something other dickery going on.

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I've always been conflicted. I remember the days when this was a common ruling even in local tournies, but several models didn't exist.

It sucks, but I won first prelims at an Ard Boyz because I played a guy with a gatoraid bottle drop pod. I didn't care, but the guy he beat in the previous round did and threw a fit. (note that tourney was pure gameplay. As such, I didn't care if you used a shoebox as a landraider as long as I could pummel you just the same). I won because it was mid game and the TO required the guy to take the pod plus the arriving unit off the table. Gave me the objective for the win.

That being said, the 3d printing has really thrown me for a loop. Some are amazing, funny, stupid, neat, and all the above. I've known way too many TO's rely on the rule of cool to determine if the model(s) should be allowed. Heck, I had a custom made Custodes army (before they existed as a codex) that I used counts-as Daemon Hunters rules. I had a couple TO's tell me not to bring them because they didn't care for the modelling. I could see a TO doing the same for something 3d printed.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I think it helps these discussions to establish a baseline of what is acceptable.

The minimal base line of requirements is: GW models built in a standard pose / configuration (as provided by the instruction manual)

From here the TO relaxes the requirement as they see fit. In my community, we have a lose "WYSIWYG" philosophy. This allows proxies, 3d prints, etc. The key is that you can differentiate squads and weapons. The weapons themselves don't have to be correctly modelled, but it should not be confusing across squads. If a model has a flamer acting as a melta-gun, then the flamer in another squad must also be a melta-gun and not another type of weapon.
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

I have zero dog in this fight as I don't do tournaments and my 40k figures only see the table in Grimdark Future.

If it's a discussion, I've been watching with interest for years however. As long as 40k has been around there have been 40k'ish figures available. From Shockforce through Anvil, from Enigma through Wargames Atlantic and everything in between. Often times these options have been completely identifiable and equipped WYSIWYG.

However, with 3D printing, things are different now. Never before has there been such a wealth of options:
- For EVERY faction
- that are immediately recognizable and WYSIWYG.
-that are solidly in the same ballpark as GW in terms of style and quality.

I personally think the argument for ones desire to sit across from an only-GW army has never been weaker. Not to say there aren't alternate miniature armies that are imperfect representations. However, it's quite easy to assemble a non-GW, not-Pirated army that looks every bit as good and well fitted to the 40k universe without a single GW model and spending half or less. That is a reality that tournament organizers will have to face every more increasingly in the future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
JakeSiren wrote:
I . The weapons themselves don't have to be correctly modelled, but it should not be confusing across squads. If a model has a flamer acting as a melta-gun, then the flamer in another squad must also be a melta-gun and not another type of weapon.


I wonder if 3D printing will cause more folks to return to a stricter WYSIWYG. When the weapons you need are a quick print or a cheap order away, it makes it easier to justify keeping to WYSIWYG.

I don't have the pressure of tournament play, but I always try to stick as close as possible to WYSIWYG in any game I play. It helps me and my opponent and if it means I run a sub-optional unit so be it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/12/26 04:48:14


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







I am far too old, because the tradition when I started strongly embraced the idea that some of the models in a player's army would be scratch built or personally sculpted, especially for the various character models.

For things like Chaos demons, where there have been three or more different versions of the models, sometimes in radically different artistic directions (the second version of Bloodletters looked like beastmen compared to the original metals and the current plastics), about the only defensible criteria you can go for is "Is it recognizable, and can the units be distinguished?"

If 3D printing means that everyone gets to deal with that negotiation instead of just the dudes building rhinos from scratch using plastic card, welcome to the future.
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

 solkan wrote:
I am far too old, because the tradition when I started strongly embraced the idea that some of the models in a player's army would be scratch built or personally sculpted, especially for the various character models.

Amen. Whether on the battlefield or in the pages of White Dwarf, extreme and interesting conversations and scratchbuilds have always been the most interesting models to me.

I don't recall scratchbuilding or sculpting bring an expectation by the time I started in second edition, but conversions we're certainly common and celebrated. I think nearly every army I saw had at least a few minor conversions and those with custom armies and scratchbuilds were admired. All this when almost all figures were metal!

This is after all, the company that created the deodorant bottle tank and published plans in WD for the cardboard Baneblade.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/26 14:36:31


 
   
 
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