Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I started wargaming when I was 12, and have taught kids younger than that how to paint models.

I have noticed what seems like a slight aging of the sci-fantasy side of the hobby, but I don't know if it's because there are less kids or simply more adults.

I reject the idea that it's a hobby not for kids though. Most of my gaming friends first got into gaming as early teens or pre teens and for many of us 40k was the gateway. I don't think there would be as many of us 40 year old gamers without the 12 year old gamers we once were.

I'm pretty harsh on GW prices and rules, but my preteen son is enjoying a steady diet of 40K material even if we are playing Grimdark Future. Doing my best to raise the next generation of gamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have noticed what seems like a slight aging of the sci-fantasy side of the hobby, but I don't know if it's because there are less kids or simply more adults.

I reject the idea that it's a hobby not for kids though. Most of my gaming friends first got into gaming as early teens or pre teens and for many of us 40k was the gateway. I don't think there would be as many of us 40 year old gamers without the 12 year old gamers we once were.

I'm pretty harsh on GW prices and rules, but my preteen son is enjoying a steady diet of 40K material even if we are playing Grimdark Future. Doing my best to raise the next generation of gamers.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
So you don’t think it’s for kids?

It's not, and that's a good thing for the community. Adult players would rather play in a community with other adults, not be the lone adult in a room of obnoxious 14 year olds. So yes, if you're a 14 year old with $50 in birthday money as your entire budget for the year 40k is not really accessible. But if you're in the ideal target market for GW, adults with decent careers, 40k is dirt cheap compared to a lot of other hobbies people regularly engage in.

Not to be that old timer - but I remember back (early/mid 2000's) when us older folks got a bit pissed when GW quite clearly laid out that their core demographic was teens in the fiscal materials. The adverts all started depicting stores filled with teens as well. There was much wailing about GW seeking the "pump and dump" strategy vs catering to the older folks with jobs. Thing is, they did just fine with teens that had mum/dad/etc financing things. A 14 year old with only $50 may not be GW's target but the 14 year old given $100 every month in allowance/presents definitely is.

Unless I missed some big news, I'd wager GW's main target is still affluent teens that have not yet found other expensive social activities (dating/drinking/etc). Of course, they don't mind picking up the post university new career social doldrum returns either...

Geek culture for adults is so much more accepted today than it was in the 90's. I suspect GW -like most major fantasy/scifi/superhero IP holders- is trying to have it's cake and eat it too by maintaining the appeal to the teenage set (spending their parent's money) while also strongly chasing adults. A good strategy in a world where both children and adults are distracted by video games.

Yeah it’s hip to be square again

But let’s face it a. Implant like GW knows who’s spending money and have a good strategy for maintaining income streams.

If they are trying I appeal to youngsters it’s cos they are spending their money in the GW shops. Also get them hooked when they are young and they will be paying for the rest of their lives.

But I expect there is a big difference between how many under 18s buy direct from GW and how many adults do.

One of the reasons movies like robocop get rebooted with a rating for younger audiences is because it’s the under 18s that actuality go to the cinema, so the movie industry is appealing to their audience

My suspicion is that GW's recent revenue boom (so 2017 onwards) has been due to a rise of adult consumers rather than somehow becoming much better at extracting pocket money. Although I've got no evidence and I don't entirely know how I'd go about getting it from publicly available info.

As for the cost... as people said, it sort of depends. I can afford to throw £100 at GW every few months and not really notice. I'm unclear a 14 year old could - but maybe I underestimate the level of inflation in pocket money.

But that doesn't change the fact £35 for 5 plastic figures - or £20+ for 1 standard humanoid character, is sort of ludicrous. Buying anything without a 20%~ FLGS discount seems right out - and I'm sort of mystified anyone buys direct from GW the money they realise such exists.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I mean "I insist on playing the game in the most expensive way possible" sounds kinda like a you problem.

I mean, "I insist on playing the game in a way that gives me a chance to win against the people who also use the optimal strategy" sounds kinda like a game problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
So you don’t think it’s for kids?

It's not, and that's a good thing for the community. Adult players would rather play in a community with other adults, not be the lone adult in a room of obnoxious 14 year olds. So yes, if you're a 14 year old with $50 in birthday money as your entire budget for the year 40k is not really accessible. But if you're in the ideal target market for GW, adults with decent careers, 40k is dirt cheap compared to a lot of other hobbies people regularly engage in.

Don't be absurd, of course it's for kids. A large majority started this hobby when we were kids. Personally I was around eleven and the larger section of players was around my age to the late teens and still is from what I've seen.

Tyel wrote:
My suspicion is that GW's recent revenue boom (so 2017 onwards) has been due to a rise of adult consumers rather than somehow becoming much better at extracting pocket money. Although I've got no evidence and I don't entirely know how I'd go about getting it from publicly available info.

As for the cost... as people said, it sort of depends. I can afford to throw £100 at GW every few months and not really notice. I'm unclear a 14 year old could - but maybe I underestimate the level of inflation in pocket money.

But that doesn't change the fact £35 for 5 plastic figures - or £20+ for 1 standard humanoid character, is sort of ludicrous. Buying anything without a 20%~ FLGS discount seems right out - and I'm sort of mystified anyone buys direct from GW the money they realise such exists.

Potentially a bit of both.

I’m from the 1989 Heroquest generation. And that generation are now parents. Parents with kids who are the right age to pick up the hobby. In theory, every kid that gets into it is also bringing a parent (most likely, but not necessarily their Dad) into it too.

What price parent/child bonding? The hobby itself is conducive to aiding education. Maths, reading, art and that all expressed to some level.

Sure, we might see it as £35 for a box of models. But for a parent/child project? That’s a fair few hours they get out of that investment.

Compare to say, an outing to the cinema. One parent and one child (for consistency!) is thick end of £29, going on Ashford (Kent) Vue to see Black Adam. Enjoyable it may be, but it’s still a one and done - and that price doesn’t include any drinks or snacks.

It’s also a hobby for all weather. Pishing it down outside? Wargaming doesn’t care. Nights drawing in? Get your painting station set up.

Time wise it’s also surprisingly flexible. Sure, a game requires at least a couple of hours booked out. But painting, building, reading, list building can be done…..pretty much any time. A sport still requires some level of arrangement, even if it’s just a kick about in the park.

And from my (now 12 year out of date) experience as a GW Till Monkey in a middle class town? Many of the parents doing the heavy lifting of the buying were happy to do it because, and I quote, “it’s not another bloody computer game”. As I said that’s my experience from 12 years ago so I can’t and won’t claim it’s accurate. But it’s still food for thought.

Add in that the hobby is often a haven for the socially awkward naturally nerdy kids, and it can be really good socialisation for them. Again as a former Till Monkey, some kids would be more than a handful when they first started coming regularly, but most would get sorted quite quickly. It was a great thing to see to be honest. Of course GW does less in-store gaming these days, so see “do keep in mind this was 12 years ago”.

Kids might only be able to throw a bit of pocket money at the hobby every now and then but if you get enough of them to do it you make millions. And then some will get bored and find other hobbies (but you’ve already got their money) and the rest will spend the rest of their life spending their money on the hobby

I agree theirs been a boom of adults getting into the hobby since 2000 but I’d wager that every time GW has expanded their market into new territories they have built their success on a fanbase of young geeks

They literally have 40k books for kids, it's a whole thing! Of course it's for kids! I've got a 9yr old who's fallen hard for Death Company and has been excited ever since we were able to get a Recruit box for him.

My 5 yr old has shown interest. Feels a little young, but then again he's aware of Star Wars and transformers through kids at school. Lots of "pew pew gun!" already, which I have mixed feeling about. I figure I can make a really simple game with the models and have him roll saves on 2d6 for the arithmetic.

 Insectum7 wrote:
One thing that stands out to me is the prices of GW models compared to plastic model kits, either real or sci-fi subjects. The GW prices look pretty high compared to many of those. I recently bought a Terminator 2: Hunter Killer Tank kit ant it might have been 90 bucks. A comparably sized GW kit would have been twice the cost.

Model kits have always been less expensive than gaming miniatures thanks to economy of scale. Model kits have a much wider audience, so don't have to build in as much of the cost per unit, allowing the retail price to be lower. They also quite often stay in production using the same moulds for 30+ years.

I think, unfortunately, that many other gaming companie just look at GW prices and figure they can charge something similar in a lot of cases. Like the X-wing models seem stupidly priced for what you get, especially when you compare them to scale model kits.

I mean, some of us are considerably cheaper... Bear in mind, though, that economy of scale goes both ways. Companies without the market saturation of GW have to recoup their costs from fewer sales, are often working with more expensive materials, and often don't have access to the same level of expertise and/or technology as GW, pushing costs up.

So far as X-wing goes... licensed games, and Star Wars in particular, have extra costs due to licensing and royalties. And that's not just for miniatures. That Hunter Killer kit you mentioned would also have cost more to make and had a higher RRP than a comparable historical vehicle kit. SciFi model kits in general tend to be considerably more expensive than historical kits from the same manufacturer.

^Right, but I'm saying that even that licensed T2 kit cost considerably less than a similarly scaled FW kit. As for the economy of scale on such a thing, I dunno. But I got the impression that the older Tac squad moulds were wearing out, and they might have sold much more than the T2 HK.

The tactical squad has supposedly financed a lot of other kits that GW has made over the years.

The thing is, GW is expensive because they can be. They deliberately place themselves as the luxury brand within the niche, playing off the customer perception that you pay for quality. Smaller miniature companies are cheaper when they can afford to be, because for most that's the only realistic way to compete with GW's market presence, and I would guess that most miniature producers offering comparable prices to GW are doing so because they have to in order to make money, rather than just because GW are doing it.

Stepping back from GW has really shone a light on what they're doing of late.

They sell the rulebooks so you'll want to buy more than one copy of a model (buy a squad of 5! Or 10!! Or make three squads of 10 each!!!). Then jack the price up yearly and reduce the number of models you get in each box.

They make the basic "infantry" cheap, then the special/elite more expensive for fewer models when they're all made from the same plastic.

Their rulebook turnover is ridiculous - we've got rules coming out now that are being nerfed/changed before they hit the shelf. With a supplement six months later, and a new campaign a month or two after that. Adding an annual points balance yearly. Then a whole new edition in two years.

Rulebooks are being chopped up and doled out into smaller tidbits. Look at the likes of Necromunda and Kill Team. They pull you in with the "base rules" and then release this rule subset or that (such as "Commanders") in piecemeal fashion.

Infinity is expensive on a model by model basis, until you compare an entire game of Infinity to 40k. An entire game of Infinity is 30 models, at most. For 40k, 30 models is three units of Guardsmen, or 6 of minimum sized Marine units. 2 Tactical Squads of 10 men each is $110. 20 models, sure, but not a full army. The Shasvastii starter set at my local store is $100, and is a full, 300 point, army.

 Stormonu wrote:
They make the basic "infantry" cheap, then the special/elite more expensive for fewer models when they're all made from the same plastic.

This has always been a thing, and comes down to economy of scale again... If you need three boxes of troops to fill out an army, but only one box of elites, the elite models need to be more expensive to recoup their development costs. Conversely, making troops cheaper makes it less painful to have to buy more of them.

Their rulebook turnover is ridiculous - we've got rules coming out now that are being nerfed/changed before they hit the shelf. With a supplement six months later, and a new campaign a month or two after that. Adding an annual points balance yearly. Then a whole new edition in two years.

Rulebooks are being chopped up and doled out into smaller tidbits. Look at the likes of Necromunda and Kill Team. They pull you in with the "base rules" and then release this rule subset or that (such as "Commanders") in piecemeal fashion.

I suspect that both of these are primarily the 'fault' of the ongoing policy of not printing rules ahead of models. Putting out smaller books more often allows them to keep the release schedule closely tied to the books the models are being made for. But the flip side of that is that the faster release schedule would mean less time spent on each making sure they get them right.

Not to suggest that pre-release errata shouldn't be irritating... I'm just not particularly surprised it's happening.

 insaniak wrote:

The thing is, GW is expensive because they can be.

Well, yes, that's kinda where we're at. Aka, GW is priced well beyond what's required, just because they can. Look no further tham $55 dollars for two Warlocks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
. . .Putting out smaller books more often allows them to keep the release schedule closely tied to the books the models are being made for. But the flip side of that is that the faster release schedule would mean less time spent on each making sure they get them right.

Right, and smaller releases is also fine . . . But with that "premium product" they insist on hardback and pump the price on those too.

Dabbled in Necromunda a bit through covid. The number of hardback supplements my friend had collected for that game was shocking.

On Necromunda.

Ultimately to play the game? You just need the rulebook, preferred House Of book and your models.

Of those, the only things you need to buy in terms of GW product are the rulebooks.

The other House Of and Book Of erm…books are largely optional. They contain expansion, optional rules.

Can you doolally and spend hundreds on the books and a wide selection of commercially available terrain? You most certainly can. But you don’t need to.

Indeed, this is how GW keeps it alive in the modern. Because the original take was “sell two boxed sets of rules and terrain, and some gang models”. And as we know, that didn’t allow much in terms of repeat sales.

Yes the current version has a plethora of books. Yes I own one of each. Yes that gets expensive. But….you still only need the two to get going.

^Yeah I get it, just like you don't need all the codexes to play 40k either. But Necromunda was surprising because it's a smaller game, both in models and "stature" (not a flagship product).

But damn they're milking it with all those hardbacks.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
Infinity is expensive on a model by model basis, until you compare an entire game of Infinity to 40k. An entire game of Infinity is 30 models, at most. For 40k, 30 models is three units of Guardsmen, or 6 of minimum sized Marine units. 2 Tactical Squads of 10 men each is $110. 20 models, sure, but not a full army. The Shasvastii starter set at my local store is $100, and is a full, 300 point, army.

Youre not wrong. But you are comparing 'mass battle mode' to 'skirmish'. A fairer comparison imo is infinity versus 40k's kill-team.

However the price per model isn't the worst thing for infinity - the ancillary cost of infinity I'd argue is higher than the 'average' game of 40k with the high stacks of terrain you need.

Not that it matters mind- they're the best sci-fi minis in the industry and beauties to paint so it's worth it regardless.


On the point of Necromunda discussed by others - we use the 'free' pdf from the old 90s version of the game. Imo oldcromunda is a vastly better game. We have some imports from the current edition (I prefer the modern differences between auto/las) but really, gw can release a hundred 'new' rulebooks and we'll still be happy with ours.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Yeah I get it, just like you don't need all the codexes to play 40k either. But Necromunda was surprising because it's a smaller game, both in models and "stature" (not a flagship product).

But damn they're milking it with all those hardbacks.

Not intending to dismiss your criticism, as it’s not unfounded? One man’s milking it is another man’s ensuring it continues to pull its financial weight.

I do agree with Deadnight regarding the old rules being better - certainly for campaigns. But that’s part of Necromunda’s attraction for me. As it’s a game so rooted in A Community, it’s always been something tinkered and patched by the user.

As ever when expressing this opinion, that does not excuse sloppy rules writing in the first place.

By rooted in A Community, I mean a local circle of gamers. Whilst you can do One And Done type battles, it works best as a campaign, and for my money demands an interesting narrative. Sure GW sell oodles of Official Rules, but to me they’ll always be just a framework. A serving suggestion if you will.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sure, we might see it as £35 for a box of models. But for a parent/child project? That’s a fair few hours they get out of that investment.

Well yeah. I don't disagree with you on the relative scale. I've made the cinema argument for about a decade. See also getting the train into London to meet some friends, have a few beers, have some food, come home again, oh look that's easily pushing £50.

I was more making the inherent sort of argument. Its molded plastic. Should a single human-sized mini have marched up from say £1-2 ten(ish) years ago, to £5-7 today?
But the answer would seem to be yes, otherwise you have to assume a competitor who could charge half the price would have swept in.

Can't really add much to the Necromunda conversation. But I'd agree it and similar games (and perhaps all GW games) are dependent on having a circle of players who approach it in the same way. The moment "I'm just looking to have fun" hits "I'm looking to optimise this to the nth degree" they tend to fall over. Or at least it was with us and both versions of Necromunda, Mordheim, Bloodbowl etc.

It is important to keep in mind value is subjective.

If a parent drops a couple of hundred, and their kid doesn’t keep at it, that is money up the wall. Yes the models do tend to keep value on the second hand market quite well, but you first need to know, and hope they’re not slathered in thick paint etc to get the most out of that.

But, where a kid fully buys into The Hobby? It is a decent investment.

I’d argue stuff like Cursed City is one of the best bets. Fully self contained gaming experiences with mechanisms to keep it fresh for replay value.

Tyel wrote:

I was more making the inherent sort of argument. Its molded plastic. Should a single human-sized mini have marched up from say £1-2 ten(ish) years ago, to £5-7 today?
But the answer would seem to be yes, otherwise you have to assume a competitor who could charge half the price would have swept in.

As mentioned earlier, there are other companies out there selling minis considerably cheaper than GW. The problem is that price isn't the sole criteria (or for many players, a criteria at all) when choosing a game.

Maybe it was true in the past but no one should buy the arguments about one plastic set subsidizing the others anymore. Plenty of wargame companies smaller than GW are succeeding in making plastic kits with lower distribution than anything GW makes at much lower prices. The design, tooling and manufacturing process is more streamlined and efficient than ever and GW surely has an advantage at all stages of that process, so don't give GW a pass on price based on plastic production costs.

Just embrace the warm fuzzies of knowing that every GW product you buy gives a nice dividend to the shareholders who rest peacefully knowing you will keep buying and buying and buying....

 insaniak wrote:
[. Conversely, making troops cheaper makes it less painful to have to buy more of them.

Except they aren't that cheap. Guardsmen just ticked up to $5 each, and may go higher when the new models are released. How is $5 each anywhere near cheap, in an army where they're taken in multiple squads of 10! When they first came out it was $30 for a box of 20, now it's $50 for a box of 10! Has there been 333 percent inflation in the past 2 decades?

In my own way, I'm an addict for the 40k setting as much as many folks are for the game and models. It's the genesis of my wargaming hobby and a nostalgia I just can't shake but it's hard to overstate how it almost feels deliberate the way GW has managed to alienate me as a potential customer of their products and player of their rulesets.

Necromunda is as discussed above is a prime example. I love oldcrowmunda. I was prepared to dive in and buy some new books and figures, even at new-GW prices. However, the scale change (even beyond current 40k scale) was a major turnoff and my old figures were barely playable in the new rules. Futher, it quickly became apparent that this was not a rulebook plus supplement game, they wanted to sell me a whole shelf of rulebooks to get my gangs back in play and the rules themselves were a mess. Thank heavens I managed to sell off my gang wars before they became irrelevant.

I would like to support the company that brought me into the hobby but they don't make it easy and with other purveyors offering rules and miniatures that fit the setting so well there's much less reason reason to do so anymore.

This might be good to post again

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/763215.page


It's a few years old but I doubt there's been any real change in regular users. It 100% shows that young people are critical for wargaming. 78% got into the hobby under the age of 17.

Now granted its Dakka users poll and other sites could show some variation depending on the user-age spread and such and accounting for the fact that, even as a geeky hobby, many in reality don't post online. However it very much shows that the young age bracket is really important. Even if you might not have a 2K army until you're into your 20s or whenever its those younger years where you get hooked

The historical end of the market and the fantasy/sci fi companies in that sphere tend to be cheaper. The brand tie ins tend to be pricier. For me as a wargamer GW is expensive, but it you are a magic or star wars player the prices look more reasonable.

I think the box games, and skirmish games are a huge draw for kids.
It gets them in, and can keep them even if they don’t buy often.
As well as provide opponents for bigger spenders, as well as community engagement.

If you look at a lot of the free to play and gacha games, often it’s just keeping players in the hobby and talking that translates to people spending and getting big spenders to supplement any low spenders.

Apple fox wrote:
I think the box games, and skirmish games are a huge draw for kids.
It gets them in, and can keep them even if they don’t buy often.
As well as provide opponents for bigger spenders, as well as community engagement.

A huge turning point I think was when GW stopped making things like Killteam be a backpage of the main rules and instead marketed it as its own product. With boxed sets and advertising and all. It made a format which has been around for donkey's years into something that was formal. That in turn got not just new people but also older people playing. Heck many people as they get older wind up with a big collection but less time to play so smaller shorter games can be a great draw for them.

As you say even if someone isn't big spending, if they are playing they are providing entertainment, content and value for those who are and that in turn means that the customer who has money to spend is more likely to hang around. When someone can't find people to engage with and play in a social hobby they wander off. Might be to another store, might be to another club or might be to another hobby.

It's only a problem if everyone is freeloading and no one is buying.