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The_Real_Chris wrote:
The historical end of the market and the fantasy/sci fi companies in that sphere tend to be cheaper. The brand tie ins tend to be pricier. For me as a wargamer GW is expensive, but it you are a magic or star wars player the prices look more reasonable.

A lot of historical stuff in un-IP-able and thr market is saturated with roman legionairres and other 'popular' period armies but if you're into some fairly obscure faction/period you'd options will be very limited.

And I think you can add lego to the magic and star wars collectors - that stuff is like gold.

 Eilif wrote:
Just embrace the warm fuzzies of knowing that every GW product you buy gives a nice dividend to the shareholders who rest peacefully knowing you will keep buying and buying and buying....

Clearly the answer is to set aside that extra box of Space Marines and buy some GW shares. "You'll appreciate it when your older".

Then again, they've not had the best of it over the last 12 months.

Tyel wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Just embrace the warm fuzzies of knowing that every GW product you buy gives a nice dividend to the shareholders who rest peacefully knowing you will keep buying and buying and buying....

Clearly the answer is to set aside that extra box of Space Marines and buy some GW shares. "You'll appreciate it when your older".

Got a nice chuckle from this. Doesn't sound entirely different from the sort of thing I'd say to my kid while at the same time showering him with second hand 40k stuff....

A bundle of contradictions we are.


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Deadnight wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
The historical end of the market and the fantasy/sci fi companies in that sphere tend to be cheaper. The brand tie ins tend to be pricier. For me as a wargamer GW is expensive, but it you are a magic or star wars player the prices look more reasonable.

A lot of historical stuff in un-IP-able and thr market is saturated with roman legionairres and other 'popular' period armies but if you're into some fairly obscure faction/period you'd options will be very limited.

That's true, but even the most obscure historical period is probably at least served by a nice line of metal figures or two that still cost considerably less-per-fig than GW kits.

Deadnight wrote:

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
Infinity is expensive on a model by model basis, until you compare an entire game of Infinity to 40k. An entire game of Infinity is 30 models, at most. For 40k, 30 models is three units of Guardsmen, or 6 of minimum sized Marine units. 2 Tactical Squads of 10 men each is $110. 20 models, sure, but not a full army. The Shasvastii starter set at my local store is $100, and is a full, 300 point, army.

Youre not wrong. But you are comparing 'mass battle mode' to 'skirmish'. A fairer comparison imo is infinity versus 40k's kill-team.

However the price per model isn't the worst thing for infinity - the ancillary cost of infinity I'd argue is higher than the 'average' game of 40k with the high stacks of terrain you need.

Not that it matters mind- they're the best sci-fi minis in the industry and beauties to paint so it's worth it regardless.


On the point of Necromunda discussed by others - we use the 'free' pdf from the old 90s version of the game. Imo oldcromunda is a vastly better game. We have some imports from the current edition (I prefer the modern differences between auto/las) but really, gw can release a hundred 'new' rulebooks and we'll still be happy with ours.

If I were to compare Infinity to Kill Team, I'd probably use a Code One starter as comparison, as the Code One and Kill Team boxes provide a similar role, in providing a low model count skirmish game, so people try the bigger game. Kaldstrom seems to be $140, and the Kill Team starter is $100. Both provide terrain and the tools needed to play. I think an advantage Infinity has over modern Kill Team, unless they added points or scalability, is the fact that you can choose to play Infinity at lower point levels, so it's cheaper still. The recommended first game in the rule book was with 3 basic troops on either side. I do kind of want to try a game like that.

Honestly, though, I forgot new Kill Team existed, and in my head, was thinking you needed to buy multiple kits for Kill Team instead of just the one still. I do think Infinity models can be too expensive, and really want them to be cheaper. I tend to ebay hunt instead of buying off their website, or occasionally use Warsenal.

Open question on being able to play Infinity at lower points? Is such a scaled game still satisfying?

I mean, 40K can be played at 500 points. But it makes for a pretty flaccid and anaemic experience compared to “proper” points levels.

I ask because I genuinely don’t have a clue!

Infinity is already a skirmisher game so it like as not scales down very easily. I think the main point of their second mode is to have a slightly simpler/easier game to get into.

40K shifting down to 500points on its own doesn't work as well because at its core its a wargame rather than a skirmish game. So when you go that low things get a bit wonky. Same as how Old World never scaled down very well either (in fact even worse at the 500 point levels)

Another point worth mentioning about infinity is that one could spend as much on it as on a w40k army. One would probably end with 3-4 armies, assuming no over lap. And unlike with most armies in w40k, something like being so weak it is unfun to play with an army, is not a common thing in the game. In fact, from the few games I have seen people play around here, the bad for years thing, is a very GW games only thing.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Open question on being able to play Infinity at lower points? Is such a scaled game still satisfying?

Yes and no. There are multiple ways to scale down Infinity, that each have their own pros and cons.

1) Code One - This is still full sized, but with a limited model set that removes some of the more complicated features of the game
2) Direct Action - This is a set of scenarios that removes some of the more complicated objectives and is generally more combat focused. Generally still full sized, but can scale down as well.
3) Limited Insertion - Full sized points, but with a cap on the number of models you can take. Skews the game towards more elite and expensive pieces but tends to play a little quicker.
4) Actually playing smaller point games. This gets tricky. There's actually scaling in the scenarios for this, but due to the way orders work, you often don't play with that much less stuff but more play with a larger focus on cheap models rather than feeling like you didn't really gain anything over the standard.
5) Starter box games - This is kind of what I think most people have in mind when they want to start small. Mix of model types with VERY few models (6). The main issue I find is the board can often end up really empty and things tend to get decided in a couple kills. I've had better luck with this but using half the board space (2x4) but luckily CB has started pushing more fleshed out starter products where these games aren't quite as popular with new players.

 Eilif wrote:

Except they aren't that cheap. Guardsmen just ticked up to $5 each, and may go higher when the new models are released. How is $5 each anywhere near cheap, in an army where they're taken in multiple squads of 10! When they first came out it was $30 for a box of 20, now it's $50 for a box of 10! Has there been 333 percent inflation in the past 2 decades?

I didn't say they were cheap. I said that they were cheaper, comparatively, to smaller elite units.

 insaniak wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

Except they aren't that cheap. Guardsmen just ticked up to $5 each, and may go higher when the new models are released. How is $5 each anywhere near cheap, in an army where they're taken in multiple squads of 10! When they first came out it was $30 for a box of 20, now it's $50 for a box of 10! Has there been 333 percent inflation in the past 2 decades?

I didn't say they were cheap. I said that they were cheaper, comparatively, to smaller elite units.

Fair enough. My point was that with GW "cheaper" doesn't mean much when prices are going up as they are. To add to that, "cheaper" means even less when you may still be spending as much or more per point on that "cheaper" unit than the more elite units.

 Eilif wrote:
Fair enough. My point was that with GW "cheaper" doesn't mean much when prices are going up as they are. To add to that, "cheaper" means even less when you may still be spending as much or more per point on that "cheaper" unit than the more elite units.

You seem to be arguing against something that nobody actually said, though. My point about troops being comparatively cheaper was specifically in response to a comment about elite units being priced higher to squeeze more money out of players. It wasn't in any way an attempt to paint GW prices as being cheap.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:

If I were to compare Infinity to Kill Team, I'd probably use a Code One starter as comparison, as the Code One and Kill Team boxes provide a similar role, in providing a low model count skirmish game, so people try the bigger game. Kaldstrom seems to be $140, and the Kill Team starter is $100. Both provide terrain and the tools needed to play. I think an advantage Infinity has over modern Kill Team, unless they added points or scalability, is the fact that you can choose to play Infinity at lower point levels, so it's cheaper still. The recommended first game in the rule book was with 3 basic troops on either side. I do kind of want to try a game like that.

Hmm, i dont fully agree but i think its academic anyway.

I'd argue kill-team is as much its own beast and a perfectly legitimate game in its own right, and a different way of using your dudes. Its role as an intro into the bigger game (buy loads of individual kill teams, hey you might as well buy a £££ hq and play 40k mass battle game as well) is secondary at best imo - we are not talking about a half dozen pages at the back of the rulebook after all. I'd argue its a good comparison for both infinity: the starter version and infinity: the main game. I think saying a fair comparison is only the infinity starter is being needlessly pernickety and I don't think it's seeing the bigger picture.

One thing gw have realised (and changed for thr better imo) is how they have genuinely diversified beyond 'the big two'. In the Kirby era the thinking was all the skirmish games took away from wfb and 40k, so the solution was to cut/not support them and force people into the main games. They've realised since that a lot of folks want a skirmish game and they're supporting that and not just as a means to an end.

Imo kill team would be my preference because while I love the infinity models, the game is a bit too... technically involved and overly complex for my tastes these days. I prefer a 'simpler' game these days. Let's be clear I'm not saying infinity is 'bad' on any level, just that my preferences are elsewhere. And id have no issues playing both skirmish games as well.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:


Honestly, though, I forgot new Kill Team existed, and in my head, was thinking you needed to buy multiple kits for Kill Team instead of just the one still. I do think Infinity models can be too expensive, and really want them to be cheaper. I tend to ebay hunt instead of buying off their website, or occasionally use Warsenal.

Perfectly fair! New kill team literally needs one box of dudes (marines dont really do mixed squads) or max two boxes if you want to go with a mixed kill.team (say, mixed fire warriors and pathfinders)

Infinity is pricey. Even second hand. I was able to sell a painted starter recently for £50 which was some nice pocket money. Despite the prive its worth it as the models are just gorgeous and a joy to paint. i don't mind the prices but then again I'm pretty disciplined on where I spend my £££ and have most of what I want. Noe when they make a box set of veteran kazaks that will change!

I don't think any other game, besides other GW games, can be called pricy. Even if infinity models were 20$ each, then a 15 model army would be less then 1/3 of a basic w40k army.

Karol wrote:
I don't think any other game, besides other GW games, can be called pricy. Even if infinity models were 20$ each, then a 15 model army would be less then 1/3 of a basic w40k army.

Infinity compared to any wargame is going to be cheaper, because its a skirmisher that only needs a small number of models to run.

Actually if you compare Infinity to GW's skirmish games the price difference isn't too far off. An "army" boxed set of Infinity isn't far off (might actually be a bit more?) than two boxes of Necromunda characters (eg core and expansion box). Sure if you want all the upgrade weapons and a really diverse team the prices go up, but to get started with the price difference isn't all that much.

Physical product is physical product and it should dictate the price. The things like game size or points costs are arbitrarily decided by the company that produces the game and I hate when people say they are legitimate ways of determining the price of the product in $$$. It's just a free pass for the company to introduce predatory pricing strategies. "Hey, designers, let's make this model cost more points so that we can ask more money for it!" etc.

Karol wrote:
I don't think any other game, besides other GW games, can be called pricy. Even if infinity models were 20$ each, then a 15 model army would be less then 1/3 of a basic w40k army.

Hmm, Warmachine/hordes as an example which for several years was the 'second' game in the industry could be ridiculously pricey.

A tournament grade infernals army back in mk3 is the best part of a thousand quid. I built a khadoran 'charge of the horselords' force at it was over £300 for twenty-some models (cavalry). Whilst some lists could be reasonable, lots of builds were veey expensive as well.

Individual squads (everblight chosen for example, or the colossals) are close to a hundred quid for 5 models.

Gw are pricey but it's an industry thing. Infinity is 'better' just because of its smaller scale.

Cyel wrote:
Physical product is physical product and it should dictate the price. The things like game size or points costs are arbitrarily decided by the company that produces the game and I hate when people say they are legitimate ways of determining the price of the product in $$$. It's just a free pass for the company to introduce predatory pricing strategies. "Hey, designers, let's make this model cost more points so that we can ask more money for it!" etc.

I disagree.

You may call it predatory and other buzzwords if you like, but the fact remains kits tend to have a pretty set production cost, from initial sketches all the way to appearing on shelves. The only particular variable there is how many sprues constitute a given set.

Stuff like character models sell in lower numbers more or less by default compare to Elites. And Elites will sell in lower numbers than Troops, because of how the game works.

Hence, if a kit isn’t expected to sell in high numbers, any company needs to ensure the expected sales volume is profitable in its own right. That’s where GW’s pricing stems from. You may not like it, but it’s not some underhanded conspiracy.

GW skirmish game cost double that of what other companies ask for. And often require multiple sesonal books to play the game, unlike those of other factions. And I am not talking about super optimised tournament lists, but just a regular good list that is worth being bought and played at a FLGS. Heck the cost of 4 patrol boxs, is 600$+ depending where someone lives.
And four of those are often not even legal to play.

Something like a collossal are comperable to the big knights in price or the SoB from AoS, and while I can not check the price of them on GW site, at my store a single mega gargant costs more then 100$, although only by one 1$. after convertion to PLN.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Stuff like character models sell in lower numbers more or less by default compare to Elites. And Elites will sell in lower numbers than Troops, because of how the game works.

.

I think that depends A LOT on the army. GW writes the rules, so they know or at least should know what is going to be played. And marine armies do not consists of 40+ intercessors/incursors/etc and then 10-15 elite models. What marine lists do consists of or consisted of was, minimal troops, and then spamed terminators, bikes, venguard veterans, sang guard etc depending on the army. Yet GW, knowing that, somehow doesn't make, the rarely used intercessor, not to mention almost never used scout or tactical squad, more expensive then 3 blade guard veterans or 5 venguard marines. SW spam the living hell out of TWC and run a lot more wulfen, then lets say intercessors.
Abbadon is in every chaos army in existance ranging from actual csm and ending with chaos knights, yet GW didn't decide to make him cheaper just because he is used often. Same with GK NDKs at a time.

Karol wrote:
I don't think any other game, besides other GW games, can be called pricy.

At about $50/unit box the various Flames of War (15mm WWII etc) games, if built only using Battlefront product, can add up.
Not as expensive as GW of course, but still pricey. Especially considering the size of the models for the $.

That depends.

Let’s consider Warmahordes when it first landed. Whilst the price of individual boxes was roughly equivalent in the U.K., the selling point was you needed fewer such boxes to get a decent sized army.

But, because the games were such small scale, and much like X-Wing, the money was made by people swapping out units for variety, so they weren’t playing the same list game after game.

Yes further spending would almost certainly vary - and isn’t necessarily linked to how often you play. But it still added up quite quickly overtime.

For me? X-Wing priced me out fairly quickly, especially once it’s 2nd Edition landed. Individual fighter scale went from around £10-£12 a pop, to £23.99 RRP (you can buy at a discount of course). That’s….much to much. Especially when part of putting together a decent list is “hunt that one specific card, which could well be packed with a ship you just don’t want to field”.

Does that excuse GW’s own pricing? No. No it doesn’t. But if folk are honest, others are dodgy.

Sticking with X-Wing? Vader’s TIE Advanced sucked in the first edition. But don’t worry, we’ll put out new cards to sort that. But….you’ll need to buy the Imperial Raider (RRP £100, but I think was cheaper on release?) to get those….

Karol wrote:GW skirmish game cost double that of what other companies ask for. And often require multiple sesonal books to play the game, unlike those of other factions. And I am not talking about super optimised tournament lists, but just a regular good list that is worth being bought and played at a FLGS. Heck the cost of 4 patrol boxs, is 600$+ depending where someone lives.

And four of those are often not even legal to play.

This is a hot garbage take Karol.

GW skirmish games are games like Kill Team and Necromunda.

Take kill team. You can buy any of 4 starter sets for between £80 and £120. You get the rulebook, dice, cards, ancilliaries, faction rosters, terrain and 2 kill teams (krieg veterans and ork commandos, sisters and tau, kasrkin and necrons and kroot farstriders and navy breachers). Its not just an intro to the game – it’s a buy-in to a very decent level. If you want an ever cheaper option, buy some intercessors. £30 That one kit is literally all you need. You can find the rules online if you don’t mind using a tablet or phone (and no, im not talking about getting the rules illegally either).

Take Necromunda. Buy a gang kit and the rulebook. And off you go. Maybe £60.

Very reasonable buy-ins. Very much in line with other companies' offerings. And no, you don’t need seasonal books to play the game. We’ve played necromunda since its relaunch with the original set of new rules (and recently went back in time to the free 90s rules which are amazing, by the way). The game doesn’t stop and the models don’t self destruct either.

You don’t need 4x patrol boxes to play a skirmish game.

Karol wrote:

Something like a collossal are comperable to the big knights in price or the SoB from AoS, and while I can not check the price of them on GW site, at my store a single mega gargant costs more then 100$, although only by one 1$. after convertion to PLN.

.

Indeed, but that’s irrelevant. Your point was no game could be called as pricey as GWs. You are incorrect in stating this. PP’s warmachine is just as expensive in a lot of ways. £100 for 5 vavalry models (everblight chosen) for example is insanity. I don’t consider GW heroes by any stretch of the imagination, but there are plenty of ways to play their games with a reasonable buy in, the grass isn’t necessarily greener in other companies’ fields.

Karol wrote:

I think that depends A LOT on the army. GW writes the rules, so they know or at least should know what is going to be played. And marine armies do not consists of 40+ intercessors/incursors/etc and then 10-15 elite models. What marine lists do consists of or consisted of was, minimal troops, and then spamed terminators, bikes, venguard veterans, sang guard etc depending on the army. Yet GW, knowing that, somehow doesn't make, the rarely used intercessor, not to mention almost never used scout or tactical squad, more expensive then 3 blade guard veterans or 5 venguard marines. SW spam the living hell out of TWC and run a lot more wulfen, then lets say intercessors.

Abbadon is in every chaos army in existance ranging from actual csm and

.

Not everyone plays tournament lists Karol. Remember that. I’ve probably bought about 50 intercessors myself (minotaurs, raptors, dark angels painting project etc) and probably the same in reivers.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:That depends.
Let’s consider Warmahordes when it first landed. Whilst the price of individual boxes was roughly equivalent in the U.K., the selling point was you needed fewer such boxes to get a decent sized army.

‘when it first landed’ being the operative word. We are talking about a situation 15 years ago which bears very little resemblance to now or has any relevance to the modern game.

By the time mk2 was mature, the standard game was steamroller 2 x 50pts, with very little overlap (sometimes even sideboards). Combine this with £40 jacks and casters an a need to keep up with the meta, it was pricey. By the time mk3 came around, the meta list was infernals, which would set you back for the standard 2 x 75pts lists and would set you back the best part of £1000.

Also of note is Brexit – 15 years ago if you paid $200 for something, its equivalent was about £120, now its £200. Thatts put a massive burden on top of the price. The mk4 starter sets are $200 dollars for 20 models...

Karol wrote:
GW skirmish game cost double that of what other companies ask for. .

Do they, though? I'd take the price point of Warcry or Kill Team or Bloodbowl starters or teams any day over what PP is asking for new Warmachine starters (skirmish -sized).

I was keeping to MK1 Warmachine because that’s the one I’m familiar with. Probably should’ve said

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I was keeping to MK1 Warmachine because that’s the one I’m familiar with. Probably should’ve said

Youre showing your age. Karol wasnt even born then. :p

That’s not my age. That’s my

Oh wait I can’t use those sort of words on Dakka.

Who new Duck would be so controversial?

Have people looked at Mantic as a comparison vs GW? If I was to buy from a company I would buy from them. I haven't seen the models in person, but the prices are much better, aswell as the bundles. Their rules I like and they have different scales of battle, with different rules for each size. I just have never seen anyone locally play it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sticking with X-Wing? Vader’s TIE Advanced sucked in the first edition. But don’t worry, we’ll put out new cards to sort that. But….you’ll need to buy the Imperial Raider (RRP £100, but I think was cheaper on release?) to get those….

Yeah, people who complain about GW's supposed predatory pricing should really take a look at FFG. And to make it clear to people who didn't play X-Wing: the cards have literally zero effect on the game, they exist purely as a rules reference and if you use a squad builder like most people all of their rules text is on your printed list. The sole reason for requiring physical cards in events is to act as a proof of purchase and force you to pay enough money for the privilege of playing. It's not like buying new 40k models where you do kind of need to have a model on the table, the only thing buying that £100 model got you was the proof that you spent £100 and had permission to use the £100 upgrade.

i mean blood and plunder is releasing a starter box for $145, in that you get 2 plastic ships and guns, dimensions put each ship as larger than a baneblade. you get i believe it's 10 dudes per side, and everything you need play including rule book, gaming mat, dice, templates etc.

even their resin sloops are much cheaper than comparably sized models from FW.

GW has good deals on their box sets typically, but their individual models are stupidly expensive.

johnpjones1775 wrote:
i mean blood and plunder is releasing a starter box for $145, in that you get 2 plastic ships and guns, dimensions put each ship as larger than a baneblade. you get i believe it's 10 dudes per side, and everything you need play including rule book, gaming mat, dice, templates etc.

Oh nice, I'll have to give that a look.

johnpjones1775 wrote:
even their resin sloops are much cheaper than comparably sized models from FW.

To be fair those sloops also have nowhere near the detail or # of parts similar sized FW kits do. There's alot more that goes into producing & pricing resin kits than just x amount resin/x size model.

steelhead177th wrote:
Have people looked at Mantic as a comparison vs GW? If I was to buy from a company I would buy from them. I haven't seen the models in person, but the prices are much better, aswell as the bundles. Their rules I like and they have different scales of battle, with different rules for each size. I just have never seen anyone locally play it.

Mantic is an interesting case. 3 aspects to consider if you're looking at Kings of War, their flagship game.

First, the models are certainly cheaper than GW, but though they are definitely improving, they generally aren't as good and the prices are slowly ticking upwards. I like Mantic as a company and most of their miniatures are good but they just aren't on the same level. However being that they're intended for a mass battle ranked game each model being a work of art is less important.

Second, rules are tighter, and more affordable and there are FAR less of them. Generally you buy a rulebook and if you play one of the less core armies there's a single supplement that covers all of them that you would also purchase. Then, once a year a supplement is released that covers any armies and additional units released that year, rules clarifications and a campaign. Yet you don't have to buy any of those extras because you can do everything with a rulebook and a force builder which includes all special rules and Magic item descriptions.

This year, rather than a supplement, they are releasing a new rules compilation with no fluff, but all rules and lists, clarifications and additional rules for siege, skirmish and such. Sort of a one book to rule them all.

Thirdly, it's fairly open as far as miniatures. There are quite a few armies (mostly WHFB analogues) that they don't make miniatures for and the company, players and tournaments welcome alternate models. However, if you're a hardcore tournament player, you can only advance to their finals with an army of Mantic Miniatures.

So, it's cheaper and tighter and with none of the rules bloat but there are downsides in addition to the lower model quality. You're not going to be able to find a game as easily in most areas. Also, even though they put alot of work in and rebooted the setting I don't find it particularly compelling and being quite new there just isn't that much to jump into. I prefer to use the WHFB setting with KOW rules.

It's also a fairly large game that really only starts to hum at 1200 points or so. That means there are allot of models to paint. Supposedly they are rectifying this with a new small battle mode, but that remains to be seen. Lastly, while I don't find it a bad thing, people who prefer more complex rules that attempt to capture the finer differences between units may not like KoW's level of abstraction.

Sum up, KOW has affordability and a better game. GW has better models and games you can easily find opponents for.