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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
@Gert

The Brutes got exactly what they deserved. I personally enjoyed butchering the last remnants of their species. Filthy Xenos who burnt hundreds of human worlds and have the nerve to present themselves as victims. They will find no salvation on that ring. I will take everything from Atriox. I’ve already massacred Escharum and all his pathetic followers. Then, he’s going die with his Xenos skull stamped into paste. He’s a rat and a maggot. Let’s see him win when the Chiefs is armed with something more dangerous than a pistol. Let’s see him swing that mace when Chief cuts the rats arms off with an energy sword.

Cortana saved the Galaxy. Including those pathetic Brutes, who I will remind you, tried to fire the Halo arrays and kill themselves. Who massacred billions of humans and showed zero remorse for it. So they have no right to attack the Infinity and the UNSC; who actually neatly dealt with the problem. They are animals. Filthy Xenos and this ends with them dead and cut to pieces. It’s very fortunate that they’re too stupid to realise that the Chiefs going to kill every last one of the bastards.

Well that escalated quickly.

@Tango

It’s incredibly annoying that people think the Banished are somehow a sympathetic villain or even potential allies.

I keep coming back to this but in Halo Wars 2 they are introduced to us by murdering civilians, called “monsters” by Cutter, do nothing to disabuse of this and you have whole characters like Isabel whose whole thing is wanting revenge. To the point of saying of Decimus “Monster! Please kill him for me.” after he gloats about all the civilians he killed. Literally, you’re acting like it’s odd for me to call for the Banished to die when a character in game does that and it’s not the only example.

So it’s frustrating when people are constantly saying and implying. “Oh they were wronged.” “We should team up with Atriox against the Endless”. It’s the same reason people admire the Empire, they’re presented with a “strong” (despite losing to a single ship and Spartan) and militarist warrior culture. So people just eat that up and ignore pretty much the entirety of how they’re presented apart from two scenes.

Not sure why “humans make blue lady so we kill humans” is even remotely sympathetic as a motivation. It’s a double standard where the game demands you be horrified by Cortana destroying by Doisac and does not treat the Banished themselves as horrific. Suddenly it’s all this cartoon filter where we aren’t meant to take what Bassus or Escharum are seriously, It’s so funny they imply they’re eating prisoners every five seconds. 🙄

I disliked the fact 343 threw Cortana under the bus. They already went too far in Halo 5 and point black refused to use rampancy or the Logic Plague as an explanation. “Oh, it’s more thematic if her story parallels Halsey and we retain the characters agency.” Clearly they didn’t get the memo from Halo 5. People don’t like the character being a monster.

Look if 343 have decided that “oh Atriox is popular let’s make him like the Arbiter” that’s just dumb. The Arbiter was lied to. Atriox is choosing to be a monster. The villain should be punished for his hubris. Y’all the people who want to fist bump him after he killed Cortana and the Infinity crew.

Meanwhile you seem to want to fist bump Cortana because of her own genocidal and imperialistic campaign, like that time she attacked Earth and turned off all the tech on the planet and its orbit, likely killing millions.

You are the one that is defending genocide, so don't blame this on the rest of us.

 Tyran wrote:
Meanwhile you seem to want to fist bump Cortana because of her own genocidal and imperialistic campaign, like that time she attacked Earth and turned off all the tech on the planet and its orbit, likely killing millions.

You are the one that is defending genocide, so don't blame this on the rest of us.

It's Cool. Cutter said they were monsters. Cutter isn't just a character in the world with his own bias. No. He is the ultimate perfect arbiter of truth, and when he says x race are monsters, go wild and kill them all.

 Tyran wrote:
The Allies didn't exterminate the Germans in spite of all the horrible genocidal gak Nazi Germany did. Andor didn't crack Coruscant (the capital of the Empire) into pieces.

I don't get it.

Are you saying that slaughtering millions of people is the wrong way to teach the lesson that slaughtering millions of people is a horrific thing to do?

I don't know. That seems kind of pansy ass. Just line the men, the boys, the women and the girls up and gun them all down. Then throw the babies in the blender or something I don't know babies or how they work. That'll teach them to commit horrific and brutally arbitrary mass killings! Especially the babies.

(slash sarcasm)

 Tyran wrote:
Meanwhile you seem to want to fist bump Cortana because of her own genocidal and imperialistic campaign, like that time she attacked Earth and turned off all the tech on the planet and its orbit, likely killing millions.

You are the one that is defending genocide, so don't blame this on the rest of us.

I am saying I don’t care. You are given no reason to care. I am not going to give a stupid plot line that 343 stubbornly pursued the time of day. It’s a trash story because 343 thought it was more interesting if Cortana did something really bad and had a change of heart. At which point, I will remind you, it’s set up so that the Chief forgives Cortana after she’s dead. So I am not going to listen to anyone talk about how they want to team up with cannibals who enjoy torturing people. It saves you the trouble of killing them yourself.

Also Cortana died because of the evil things she did. Along with what seems to have been all of the Created. So, it’s a completely moot point whether or not they had that coming or not. They’re dead. Gone. Punishment rendered. Conflict resolved. Since you seem to think that’s not an issue I don’t see how you aren’t willing to apply such vengeance to the Banished and Atriox.

Well 343 basically retconned Halo 5 so that’s irrelevant in the event. Not canon. Didn’t happen. Do you see any Created in Halo Infinite? Any evidence of the Brutes being killed by them? Any consequences of this big old war? All I see is a weird soft retcon in which you can head canon Halo 4 and 5 to have never happened. I think that is the sentiment behind Halo Infinite. Like you’re belabouring the crimes of a faction that was retconned before it was even properly introduced. Set against the Banished that have had two whole games where from start to finish they’ve been butchering civilians, trying to destroy humanity and have utterly no redeeming qualities. Like you do remember the cutscene of them ominously walking away from a ruined human city? Or is that imagery too subtle and you need to be shown the corpses?

Not really. You’re the ones saying it’s okay to destroy all the Created out of revenge when it’s almost certainly some Logic Plague and Rampancy stuff. But the Banished and Atriox consciously choosing to try to get a Halo to exterminate humanity? Oh Atriox is our friend. He’s a swell guy. Those Banished are so cool. We should team up once he realises the Endless are bad. You’re trivialising what the Banished and Atriox are.

Like do you actually have to be shown Banished killing civilians? Clearly being shown them torturing people isn’t enough apparently and neither is being told they’re monsters in game. Will it be when they use the Halo to destroy a human world? At what point have they went too far? Please tell me, what is the morally Grey and nuanced reasoning for the Banishes massacring everybody on the Ark? Are you saying Cutter overreacts and has misjudged Atriox? Are saying Isabel’s desire for revenge is misplaced? What about Rubicon Protocal, the novel where our protagonist is quite glad he kills the main Banished villain and humiliates his corpse by kicking it over the edge of the Halo ring. Is that just the authors take? Maybe, just maybe, they’re the villains of the story and this is to signal to us that we need to be the Heroes and stop them. A radical theory for all you people who think Atriox is a hero fighting the good fight. 🙄

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

I am saying I don’t care. You are given no reason to care. I am not going to give a stupid plot line that 343 stubbornly pursued the time of day.

And yet you keep responding. Hard to believe you don't care when you were the one that went "Cortana Did Nothing Wrong by Genociding Billions of Filthy Xenos Animals" on us. Also a surprising amount of sexist derogatory terms for some reason.

Also Cortana died because of the evil things she did. Along with what seems to have been all of the Created. So, it’s a completely moot point whether or not they had that coming or not. They’re dead. Gone. Punishment rendered. Conflict resolved. Since you seem to think that’s not an issue I don’t see how you aren’t willing to apply such vengeance to the Banished and Atriox.

Well 343 basically retconned Halo 5 so that’s irrelevant in the event. Not canon. Didn’t happen. Do you see any Created in Halo Infinite? Any evidence of the Brutes being killed by them? Any consequences of this big old war? All I see is a weird soft retcon in which you can head canon Halo 4 and 5 to have never happened. I think that is the sentiment behind Halo Infinite. Like you’re belabouring the crimes of a faction that was retconned before it was even properly introduced. Set against the Banished that have had two whole games where from start to finish they’ve been butchering civilians, trying to destroy humanity and have utterly no redeeming qualities. Like you do remember the cutscene of them ominously walking away from a ruined human city? Or is that imagery too subtle and you need to be shown the corpses?

Not really. You’re the ones saying it’s okay to destroy all the Created out of revenge when it’s almost certainly some Logic Plague and Rampancy stuff. But the Banished and Atriox consciously choosing to try to get a Halo to exterminate humanity? Oh Atriox is our friend. He’s a swell guy. Those Banished are so cool. We should team up once he realises the Endless are bad. You’re trivialising what the Banished and Atriox are.

Like do you actually have to be shown Banished killing civilians? Clearly being shown them torturing people isn’t enough apparently and neither is being told they’re monsters in game. Will it be when they use the Halo to destroy a human world? At what point have they went too far? Please tell me, what is the morally Grey and nuanced reasoning for the Banishes massacring everybody on the Ark? Are you saying Cutter overreacts and has misjudged Atriox? Are saying Isabel’s desire for revenge is misplaced? What about Rubicon Protocal, the novel where our protagonist is quite glad he kills the main Banished villain and humiliates his corpse by kicking it over the edge of the Halo ring. Is that just the authors take? Maybe, just maybe, they’re the villains of the story and this is to signal to us that we need to be the Heroes and stop them. A radical theory for all you people who think Atriox is a hero fighting the good fight. 🙄

Meanwhile all this is just pure strawmaning. No one (in this thread) has said the Banished or Atriox are the good guys, no one has said they don't have to be stopped, no one wants to team up with them.

@Tyran

Well 343 ask you to forgive Cortana in Halo Infinite so go figure. If you had bothered to read the text then you’d realise I don’t accept the premise of the story presented by 343. I am firmly of the view that they went too far in Halo 5 and should have said “it was all the Logic Plague” and then course correct. Instead they doubled down on it. Destroying Doisac is part of that doubling down. I don’t like that story direction so I am not going to treat it with any respect or reverence. It’s not a credible story and so I am going to sling mud at it. 343 should have just done a full reboot if that’s all they had.

Plus the UNSC uses World cracker nukes on Covenant worlds so I am not sure why it’s “smash all the toasters” with the Created.

You have, which is why you’re and others are taking issue with me saying I’d like the story to be about getting revenge on Atriox and the Banished. I don’t think you really care that much about the Brute homeworld being destroyed by a malfunctioning AI.

Quite a few posters are supportive of the Banished and Doisac is the first thing they bring up. Ever since Halo Wars 2 people have been captivated by the idea that the Banished aren’t like the Covenant. “They don’t want to commit genocide on humanity.” “They aren’t crazy, they’re rational.” I’d argue this is because we’ve only seen them on distant forerunner installations so haven’t had to be confronted by what they repeatedly say they are going to do to humanity. Whereas in Halo 5 we get A LOT of Cortana killing innocent people rammed down our throat. This has distorted people’s perception of the Banished. So when 343 had Cortana destroy Doisac and Atriox go all constipated face they decided “oh well this is the perfect set up for a team up. The Banished were wronged and we need to become super sympathetic towards them.”.

So yeah when the other guy was all, well we wouldn’t make Smart AI because Cortana destroyed Doisac. Well:

1) You’re ignoring the subtext that the Weapon and Chief are going to make things right and save the Galaxy. Pretty big plot point.

2) It’s a trash plot-line and it’s not reasonable that the character would do that without something like Rampancy or the Logic Plague.

3) You’re Implicitly demanding compassion for a faction that consists of cannibals, torturers and murderers. Whilst in the same token saying we should smash all the toasters.

Cortana was years past her expiration date. You need to remember how long she sat around being active while the chief was in hypersleep just floating out in space. She was and did go Rampant. And in her rampancy she did horrible gak. She deserves to be shut down like she did.

The Brutes are not cannibals. They don't eat themselves.

https://halo.fandom.com/wiki/Banished

So just to summarize in the some bullet points.

The Brutes are more or less forced into the covenant.

The Brutes are sacrificed en masse by the covenant.

The Brutes fracture into a bunch of factions. Some are made slaves by the Elites and are executed en masse when they rebel.

The Banished form their mercenary group and grow in power.

Cortana shows up and threatens them then destroys their homeworld when they refuse to submit to another AI claiming god hood.

They go on their bigger rampage in revenge.


The Brutes, again, are bad guys and need to be stopped. But god damn, you calling them cannibal monsters and ignoring all of their history that got them to this point? They are not doing what they are doing out of nowhere. The brutes have been subjugated abused, and used as sacrificial fodder on the front lines of everyone elses wars for a long LONG time.

Violence begets violence. Nobody invited the Brutes to a peace treaty to sort out any of the gak they went through. Their actions are not good. But the UNSC would and have done worse. feth... just imagine what ONI would do with the tech chief has come across if he didn't blow it up every time.

In fact, the horrible gak Cortana has done IS humanities fault. She's our AI. Her crimes are our crimes.

Lance845… well said mate. 👍

 Lance845 wrote:
Cortana was years past her expiration date. You need to remember how long she sat around being active while the chief was in hypersleep just floating out in space. She was and did go Rampant. And in her rampancy she did horrible gak. She deserves to be shut down like she did.

The Brutes are not cannibals. They don't eat themselves.

https://halo.fandom.com/wiki/Banished

So just to summarize in the some bullet points.

The Brutes are more or less forced into the covenant.

The Brutes are sacrificed en masse by the covenant.

The Brutes fracture into a bunch of factions. Some are made slaves by the Elites and are executed en masse when they rebel.

The Banished form their mercenary group and grow in power.

Cortana shows up and threatens them then destroys their homeworld when they refuse to submit to another AI claiming god hood.

They go on their bigger rampage in revenge.


The Brutes, again, are bad guys and need to be stopped. But god damn, you calling them cannibal monsters and ignoring all of their history that got them to this point? They are not doing what they are doing out of nowhere. The brutes have been subjugated abused, and used as sacrificial fodder on the front lines of everyone elses wars for a long LONG time.

Violence begets violence. Nobody invited the Brutes to a peace treaty to sort out any of the gak they went through. Their actions are not good. But the UNSC would and have done worse. feth... just imagine what ONI would do with the tech chief has come across if he didn't blow it up every time.

In fact, the horrible gak Cortana has done IS humanities fault. She's our AI. Her crimes are our crimes.

Cortana did not cause Atriox and the Banished. Atriox left the galaxy for the Ark prior to Halo 5. He was already trying to take the Halo Array and wipe out humanity. Cortana blames herself for leaving the guy with nothing left to lose but he’s already a “monster” and villain at that point. Again, Halo Wars 2 where he tries to take a Halo array is before the destruction of Doisac. So objectively there isn’t any change in his motivation or what he’s doing. When Cutter says “we leave the Galaxy at the mercy of a monster” if he gets Halo that’s all him.

It is self serving for the Brutes to kill humans and take power because of something Cortana did to them, because they were trying to take a Halo array and free the Endless. It has nothing to do with “freedom”. They are not freedom fighters.

This is not a misunderstanding. Atriox and the Banished want to conquer the Galaxy. Want to take the Halo and use it. Want to free the Endless. That is the premise of Halo Wars 2 and Halo Infinite. You have to ignore the entire game and ignore multiple characters statements to that effect.

You do realise that Atriox using the Halo is worse than anything the Created did? That if the Banished plan had got off the ground in Halo Wars 2 or Infinite that billions of humans would have been killed; as they repeatedly tell you they are going to. Worlds burning, that sort of thing.

Humanity is not remotely responsible for Cortana. You see Cortana attacking Earth in the game. The Brutes arguing they were at fault is an irrational and self serving justification. Plus Cortana is dead. So vengeance fulfilled. To continue aggression past that point is self serving and transparently about power. Also, Created doing evil things doesn’t make the Banished good and certainly not justified.

Well if Atriox withdraws from occupied human territory and ceases threatening to use WMD on humanity we can talk. Until then, I see no reason not to want to stamp his skull into paste. I know he’s a hero to you people but that’s just how I think this should play out. Anything else is rewarding the villain.

This is why I hate the Doisac plot point. It’s been seized on by fans who’ve always wanted to claim the Banished are a morally grey faction. That the war is, somehow, more morally complex and humanity bears any responsibility. When really they’re just a fresh coat of paint on the same genocidal aliens who have dropped the facade about religion and admit it’s just about power. The story about humanity reconciling with aliens is already firmly established with the Swords of Sanghelios. That’s the model of genuine redemption and making common cause.

It’s really irritating because these same people dismiss anytime 343 actually does write the Banished as clear cut villains and insist that they were depicted differently in Halo Wars 2. Completely ignoring their introduction as murderers and monsters in the night. “Oh they Escharum to be too cartoonish. The Banished should be more morally grey.”. They aren’t and they never were.

Also you’re ignoring Halo Infinites ending where Cortana has a change of heart and sacrifices herself to save the Galaxy from Atriox. Which is depicted as her redeeming herself at the end. Whereas Atriox is depicted as the big dumb villain who gets half his face burnt off as he demands to be given the power of Zeta Halo. “I want my crown”. Given that he’s trying to free the Endless and how the Harbinger ominously implies she’s going to turn on Escharum; it’s clear that he’s going to be destroyed by his own hubris. So actually 343 exonerates Cortana and condemns Atriox.

'Don't feed the troll' has seldom sounded so poignant as it does after 2 pages of... this.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
'Don't feed the troll' has seldom sounded so poignant as it does after 2 pages of... this.

I don’t get why people are so determined to defend the Banished and Atriox. Get that precious about the idea that this faction are just the villains of the story and it’s a good thing to take them down.

They’re not pushing back because I had a go at the idea we should sympathise with the Banished over Doisac. They’re pushing back because they want more of Chief cradling Escharum and listing off how wronged the Banished have been; before going to back to shooting hundreds of them. To them, that’s echoing things like the Elites making peace in Halo 3 when it’s not remotely comparable.

People get confused because whereas the Covenant is clearly a bunch of lying Priests and religious fanatics, the Banished are led by a guy who talks about freedom, brotherhood and the crimes done to the Brutes. Despite the clear fascy overtones of how he’s depicted, the fact his actions are at odds with his words, the intense violence of the faction and that he’s clearly a tyrant. People want to make excuses for a faction like the Banished because they don’t click that you aren’t meant to take these claims at face value. That “freedom” for the Banished means oppression and death for the innocent of the Galaxy. That Atriox is likely a liar and it would not surprise me if he’s revealed to be under the influence of another force; similar to how the Prophets lied about the Covenant.

If you actually don’t have an issue with killing Atriox and the Banished well what’s the point in qualifying it?

Why give the time of day to their “justification” that to be “free” they need to exterminate humanity and claim vengeance on them for something a Logic Plague infected AI did. It’s not heroic to accept your enemies self serving propaganda and lies. People find it distasteful that I say we should want revenge on Atriox when I am pretty sure the Chief even says he’s going to get payback on the Brutes who killed those Spartans. So what it’s not okay until the game tells us it’s okay?

Nobody is defending them. Nobody is sitting around going "Man, the Banished are the REAL good guys!"

What is being said is that the Brutes are the result of their history. Where they were used and abused by the covenant.

Nobody disputes how bad the halo going off would be. Or that the Banished need to be stopped from doing that.

What is being disputed is the genocidal extinction of their species to prevent it. A stance that is being lauded as a virtue here by some.

Cortana suddenly doing a small act of good in her final moments doesn't erase the planet she killed and all the civilians that entails.

And she is absolutely humanities fault. It's our hardware that went rogue. We built her.


And lets talk about the Endless real quick. A race imprisoned for existing. Releasing the Endless, on surface value, is in no way a bad thing. Their only crime that we are aware of is not being effected by the rings.

What would the Endless do when they got out? Well I imagine that has a lot to do with how they are greeted.

I haven’t said the Brutes should be genocided for almost a page. Note that it swings to just referring to Atriox and the Banished. That was a joke. Poking fun at people who think the Banished are the good guys and have been wronged. Believe me, people do think the Banished are a morally grey faction and want to see this team up. People who love Chief cradling Escharum and telling him he’s going to Valhalla.

There wouldn’t be a story if the Endless weren’t some kind of mortal threat. It would be incredibly anti climactic if the Endless weren’t actually monsters. We’re told to be concerned about them being released and “what could be more dangerous than the Flood”. Like we had this discussion where the Harbinger says we’re not enemies and then proceeds to try to kill Chief.

For example, if they’re Precursors or servants of the Precursors then they’re just pro flood and will try to release their “kin”. Or if they’re immune to the Halo then they’ll have no issue firing it to claim the Galaxy.

I think Atriox going for them is an Ark of the Covenant style story.

Yeah, Cortana died. So until Chief gets in the Time Machine (coz there’s a lot of time metaphors in that game) and convinces her not to destroy Doisac (which yes, I’d be happy with that outcome) there isn’t much more to say on it. If you don’t think the Chief should have forgiven Cortana at the end of Halo Infinite, that’s a criticism of the story and not what’s presented. I don’t see the issue since she’s clearly rampant and wasn’t herself.

Well the only reason Cortana went rampant was because of the Didact. Was only a problem because of the Forerunner Domain and their Guardians. So really it’s as much on them as it is on the Chief for failing to save her in 4 or convince her in 5. Even the Harbinger refers to the Banished as having been victims of Forerunner arrogance. Plus the Banished are self serving in this justification. So you were wronged and this means you can conquer the Galaxy? Right mate.

I don’t think Atriox is a sincere actor. Why does he have this yellow Forerunner AI/key with him at the end? Why is he so set on freeing the Endless given the Lovecraftian overtones of the faction? How did he know how to get to the Ark and what did he learn there? Who has he been speaking to? Why does the Banished symbol look a bit like Mendicant Bias eyes flipped upside down? We haven’t been told everything about him and it would thematically make sense if “the Banished will never bow to anyone ever again” are actually just pawns being played. Just like the Covenant.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I haven’t said the Brutes should be genocided for almost a page.

LOL. This is one of the funniest opening lines to a post I have ever read on Dakka. Thats amazing. Almost a page hahaha.

There wouldn’t be a story if the Endless weren’t some kind of mortal threat. It would be incredibly anti climactic if the Endless weren’t actually monsters. We’re told to be concerned about them being released and “what could be more dangerous than the Flood”. Like we had this discussion where the Harbinger says we’re not enemies and then proceeds to try to kill Chief.

So first, The Harbringer tries to kill cheif because chief just spent the entire game throwing wrench after wrench into the harbringers plans to bring back it's people. And I think the Endless WILL be a threat. Because they will be vengeful. They will want to lay waste to everything the forerunners had built. The whole idea of the Mantel will want to be torn down. But again, and way more so then anyone else, so far as we know, they are righteous in their vengeance. The forerunners saw them as a threat for being immune to the rings and they unjustly imprisoned their entire race for it. The forerunners are not the greatest arbiters of justice. The Endless appear to just be another one of their victims.

For example, if they’re Precursors or servants of the Precursors then they’re just pro flood and will try to release their “kin”. Or if they’re immune to the Halo then they’ll have no issue firing it to claim the Galaxy.

Yeah, probably. But again, violence begets violence. From their perspective, taking back the galaxy that was denied them unjustly is reasonable to them. What it looks like to me is that the Endless were the actual forerunners. The precursors meant to pass the mantel to them. And the precursors, Necron style, fought a war in heaven to take that which was denied them.

I think Atriox going for them is an Ark of the Covenant style story.

Yeah, Cortana died. So until Chief gets in the Time Machine (coz there’s a lot of time metaphors in that game) and convinces her not to destroy Doisac (which yes, I’d be happy with that outcome) there isn’t much more to say on it. If you don’t think the Chief should have forgiven Cortana at the end of Halo Infinite, that’s a criticism of the story and not what’s presented. I don’t see the issue since she’s clearly rampant and wasn’t herself.

I don't think it's about whether or not he has forgiven Cortana. It's more that he has accepted Weapon and chosen to trust her. Cortana became a monster and died. Done. Chief isn't built to dwell on things like that. He struggles to do it in the little capacity that he does.

Well the only reason Cortana went rampant was because of the Didact. Was only a problem because of the Forerunner Domain and their Guardians. So really it’s as much on them as it is on the Chief for failing to save her in 4 or convince her in 5. Even the Harbinger refers to the Banished as having been victims of Forerunner arrogance. Plus the Banished are self serving in this justification. So you were wronged and this means you can conquer the Galaxy? Right mate.

Cortana was already going Rampant at the start of 4. Not because of the Didact. She had been active for too long. She was holding it together, but the cracks were starting to show. And yeah, the Banished are bad guys. But they are also victims that drove them to being the bad guys. They are a villain with motivations that make sense.

I don’t think Atriox is a sincere actor. Why does he have this yellow Forerunner AI/key with him at the end? Why is he so set on freeing the Endless given the Lovecraftian overtones of the faction? How did he know how to get to the Ark and what did he learn there? Who has he been speaking to? Why does the Banished symbol look a bit like Mendicant Bias eyes flipped upside down? We haven’t been told everything about him and it would thematically make sense if “the Banished will never bow to anyone ever again” are actually just pawns being played. Just like the Covenant.

Agreed. The Banished are likely being used. Again. Which is unfortunate for them. Their entire existence has been being used as tools for somebody elses game and they suffer nothing but losses for it.

Chief spends like, the whole game dwelling on Cortanas death. This is a pretty big part of the story.

Yes, he really trusts the Cortana copy who we’ve never met before and joined in suspicious circumstances. With all this talk of memories being deleted and odd happenings. Very sus.

Because the Endless plan to activate and repair a Halo array. This is bad. Plus she essentially says the Mantle was taken from them so their goal is to conquer the Galaxy. I don’t think there could be a misdirect without removing the conflict entirely. Maybe if the Harbinger didn’t start cackling like a Cthulhu cult leader it would be easier to be less suspicious of their motives.

Also in an audio log she breaks the mind of a human and quotes the Gravemind. So yeah…

Again, i am not saying the endless won't end up being the bad guys/are not the bad guys now.

What i am saying is they are the bad guys now because of what was done to them.

Pretty much the only time halo has been straight up black and white about good and bad it's when they are talking about religion. There is no instance in halo where religion has not been a driving force for lies and deception used to justify attrocities.

In every other case with every other faction there are good and bad people and reasons for why they do what they do. If humanity was treated the way the brutes were our government would be capturing a halo array and using it to annhilate a universe full of enemies.

If we had our destiny stolen from us and were sealed inside of waking prisons for millenia we would come out with a vengeance.

The endless are doing a bad thing and need to be stopped. They are the effect of the precursors sins. The halo games in general are about a galaxy suffering the consequences of their hubris.

 Lance845 wrote:
Again, i am not saying the endless won't end up being the bad guys/are not the bad guys now.

What i am saying is they are the bad guys now because of what was done to them.

Pretty much the only time halo has been straight up black and white about good and bad it's when they are talking about religion. There is no instance in halo where religion has not been a driving force for lies and deception used to justify attrocities.

In every other case with every other faction there are good and bad people and reasons for why they do what they do. If humanity was treated the way the brutes were our government would be capturing a halo array and using it to annhilate a universe full of enemies.

If we had our destiny stolen from us and were sealed inside of waking prisons for millenia we would come out with a vengeance.

The endless are doing a bad thing and need to be stopped. They are the effect of the precursors sins. The halo games in general are about a galaxy suffering the consequences of their hubris.

Because trying to exterminate humanity because another species did some slight to you is bit difficult to swallow. Even the Didact and Brutes could at least point to something vaguely about humanity having done something to them by bizarre notion of collective punishment that conveniently leaves them as Masters of the Galaxy. It’s funny how their vengeance always seems to line up with them getting more power. Usually a massive red flag.

I think you’re ignoring the tone of how the Harbinger is introduced. Very unnatural, unnerving, lots of Lovecraftian themes, quoting the Gravemind and cackling maniacally that “the Endless will walk this world once more”. Sure Chief doesn’t insult the villains motivation “what’s that got to do with us?” but that’s more because they want to build up the mystery and threat. You don’t tell Cthulhu he’s an ass.

To me a nuanced villain would be something like Mr Freeze where he wants something that on surface level is very good, healing his wife, but he’s committing crime and killing people to do it. That’s a grey motivation that you can understand and relate to; where sympathy can be justified. That’s not the same with say Dedra from the Andor TV show, you’ve got a career soldier who believes in the lies of the Sith and that her torturing people and shooting civilians is justified to prop up that system. Now, it’s a motive, but it’s not sympathetic. We’re meant to want to see the villain get taken down a peg. You don’t see the rebels saying this is just a job before they riot, it’s literally “fight these bastards”. That’s hate. That’s anger. No point quibbling over whether it’s not appropriately stoic.

So I don’t understand why you think Halo should be tepid and non judgemental about its villains. Not just because that’s less dramatic and saps the conflict. Doesn’t scream save the Galaxy if you’re asked view your villain like a nail that needs a hammer applied to it. You want this to be a cosmic battle of good vs evil. But it’s also just not natural. People in that world aren’t going to think the Banished or Endless or Flood or Covenant or Created are misunderstood and just need to be loved. They’re going to think they’re bastards and want to fight them like you see in Andor. Which, apart from a bizarre misstep with Escharum is pretty much how they’ve played it. You are being told to hate the Banished for most of that game. You’re being told not to trust the Endless and that they’re dangerous.

The only two exceptions to this being:

1) The Elites, who are themselves betrayed and that’s just shifting the goalposts. Plus they’re not really shown doing bad stuff in Halo 2 so it’s an easy sell.
2) Cortana, because that’s a hero who falls and so that’s fills a different story beat if you’re playing as Chief. Although to Osiris in Halo 5 it is very much that kind of antagonism.

The Forerunners created the Mantel.

The forerunners intended to pass the Mantel to the Endless.

The precursors stole the Mantel in a war that resulted in the flood.

The precursors then chose humanity to adopt the Mantel next.

When the Endless awaken Humanity is the thing sitting between them and the thing they were supposed to be given. If you want an issue the Endless have with humanity, there it is.


I am NOT saying Halo should be tepid or non judgemental. I am saying that there is a tragedy to these villains. Consider the version of the Joker where he is a failing stand up comedian whose life is falling apart and turns to crime. His wife and kid hate him. He has nothing left. And then he gets turned into a patsy by the criminals who use him by dressing him up as the red hood and he gets dumped in those chemicals. Out comes the Joker.

None of that is excusing anything the Joker does. None of that is saying the Joker deserves sympathy. None of that means the Joker isn't the villain. But it DOES take what was just a maniacal cackling lunatic and gives him some tragedy. The villain is better for it. The monster he is compared to the person he was and could have been.

The Banished are villains. They are doing bad things. They need to be stopped. But they are doing what they are doing because of what was taken from them. By the covenant. By the UNSC. By Cortana.

The Endless are going to be our new villains. But what could have been for them had the mantel been passed as it was supposed to instead of imprisonment by usurping fanatical cowards? There is tragedy there. That doesn't mean you should feel bad while you are stopping them. It does mean they are a deeper more nuanced villain then just some cackling lovecraft entity thats bad for because.

Because the Joker is a film from his perspective and is about how he becomes the monster. Halo is about Chief being the saviour of humanity. For that to work you need a threat and conflict. For that to exist and your hero to be a hero that requires the villains to be villainous. So bad that it destroys any attempt to humanise them or what they are doing. You should want to see good triumph over evil and humanity be saved. If this could all be settled with a little heart to heart there wouldn’t be anything at stake. You could do that if the character held some sort of prejudice and had to overcome it; but Chief doesn’t.

I didn’t think it was sympathetic at all seeing Atriox backstory (if it’s even true BTW I still say he’s Mendicants meat puppet) because what, we see that he’s a killer who butchers humans in a genocidal war. Actions for which he shows zero remorse or regret for. He then rebels because the Elites are mean to him and he thinks they’re not getting proper respect. So he makes himself King and decides to begin his own war of galactic conquest.

There’s nothing sympathetic about that and we have the sharp contrast with the Arbiters own rebellion against the Covenant. He’s been able to stand by his people without vain and hubris lust for power. That’s the example. By comparison Atriox is a self serving liar determined to slaughter humanity for perceived slights to Brute honour. Plus he’s shown leading an army from a destroyed human city and I think the bulk of the emphasis remains on the power and threat posed by the Banished. There’s a little somber tune when he’s walking back from the battle; but how many civilians did he murder on those attacks? How many heroes of humanity murdered for the sake of one Brute? You even see a dead human hand to ominously indicate this.

Plus he’s a Brute. They love war and live for it. He certainly didn’t stop fighting after he was free of the Covenant so he wasn’t sick of war, he was sick of their war and his place in it. So he obviously joined the struggle hoping to achieve power and got frustrated when he didn’t get it; being treated as canon fodder. That seems more to do with his ego and hubris than anything to do with perceived slights.

I don’t think the Endless are anything other than monsters. How would this even work? If the Endless are just another benign species who want out of their Cylexes and want to live in peace; there isn’t a story here. Chief isn’t a prejudiced character. He kills these Xenos because they attack him and humanity. No I think this is a clear cut case because you aren’t going to call a game Halo The Endless just for this threat more dangerous than the flood to be “oh the Forerunner lied. Yeah we just like ET we want to go home Chief”.

What tragedy you’re referring to doesn’t remotely outweigh what they’re doing. With Cortana, yes, she literally saved the entire galaxy on multiple occasions, you owe her because she’s spent half her life making sure Chief okay and there’s the whole question mark of rampancy/Logic plague. None of the other villains have that. With them, it’s just that they’re a threat and need to be killed until they stop being a threat. You said you wanted things to be more nuanced, but I’d argue 343 switching to the Banished and Endless was actually making everything a lot more clear cut. This isn’t your fallen companion, this isn’t bringing in singularity discussion stuff, this is a murderous brood of Imperialist mercenaries and an eldritch horror. So I’d say they’ve went for the simpler story and we are just meant to take this at face value.

I wasn't talking about the joker movie. That comic is old as feth at this point and predates the joker movie by like.... 2 decades.

Halo hasn't been about straight up villains since halo 2 and the introduction of the arbiter. Or even arguably halo 1. Halo has ALWAYS given more nuance and depth to it's antagonists.

Otherwise, why listen to any of them talk at all? We could just have UNSC coms explaining the enemies plans and leave them as faceless mooks to be mowed down.

The elites were not mean to him. The brute were litterally enslaved by the elites.

The difference between the arbiter and atriox is one is a protagonist and the other an antagonist. And yet, the elites are still working for the bad guys the vast majority of the time. Because these are not monsters. They are people.

You call it percieved slights. Again, they were litterally enslaved.

Jesus christ. Its like you literally ignore the words people write. Switching to computer from phone so i can quote some gak over and over so i can make you read it in one sentences that might get through. Brb


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
How would this even work? If the Endless are just another benign species who want out of their Cylexes and want to live in peace; there isn’t a story here.

 Lance845 wrote:

When the Endless awaken Humanity is the thing sitting between them and the thing they were supposed to be given. If you want an issue the Endless have with humanity, there it is.

The Endless are going to be our new villains.

But what could have been for them had the mantel been passed as it was supposed to instead of imprisonment by usurping fanatical cowards? There is tragedy there. That doesn't mean you should feel bad while you are stopping them. It does mean they are a deeper more nuanced villain then just some cackling lovecraft entity thats bad for because.

 Lance845 wrote:
And I think the Endless WILL be a threat.

Because they will be vengeful.

They will want to lay waste to everything the forerunners had built.

The whole idea of the Mantel will want to be torn down.

But again, and way more so then anyone else, so far as we know, they are righteous in their vengeance.

The forerunners saw them as a threat for being immune to the rings and they unjustly imprisoned their entire race for it.

The forerunners are not the greatest arbiters of justice. The Endless appear to just be another one of their victims.

At this point. Either you cannot read. Or you are purposefully misrepresenting everything being said.

Enslaved by the Elites who the Banished aren’t taking issue with since they have them in their rank. None of these crimes are committed by humanity. Whereas the Banished are right now murdering humans and threatening to destroy their worlds.

The Arbiter is a hero. He saved the Elites from the Covenant, brought it down and is making a new path for his people alongside humanity. Atriox is a villain. A monster who wishes to conquer the Galaxy and ensure the ascendency of his species so that none can ever challenge their mastery. That is extremely clear cut. This isn’t morally grey. The Arbiters existence shows that Atriox is evil by comparison.

It’s always been clear cut. Halo 3 made the Elites switch sides. The Banished haven’t switched sides. Their goals are inherently villainous and evil. So there’s no point giving them the time of day.

Antagonist is a neutral term and lacks any moral condemnation or judgement. It implies that this is simply because they oppose the goals of the heroes. But humanity’s goal is just survival. It’s a passive actor being threatened with genocide. So you’re misrepresenting how these factions are being depicted. They are unrepentant villains and monsters.