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By the time GW started cranking out the LotR figures, my Warhammer armies were largely mature. I had a significant force of Empire, Bretonnia, Orcs and High Elves.

The thing was, the LotR figures were so much better. The problem with mixing the two was that scale was off, and while not jarring when different armies faced each other, having a unit of them just didn't work.

My solution was to sell off the the entirety of the Orcs and High Elves and much of my human troops as well.

This was made easier by the fact that the first-run games had incredibly cheap plastic figures - not only did my armies look better, I made a profit by swapping them out. Obviously, that window closed a long time ago, but I'm wondering if anyone else did that.

the most used LotR model was the plastic Balrog als Bloodthirster for sure

one problem using the LotR models for Warhammer was that it was forbidden to do so in GW stores and at official events (at least in Europe), so while those were better (and cheaper) it was not an option for many people

There are some great LoTR models, but I just can't get over the scale difference. Its grates on me.

I used the plastic LoTR Treeman in my Wood Elf army since it was vastly better and cheaper than the Warhammer version at the time.

LoTR Eagles are great in an elf army. Mostly The scale difference is too much for me. but I could see using them for certain units. Lake town militia for Kislev state troops would be wicked, for instance.

Grail Seeker wrote:
There are some great LoTR models, but I just can't get over the scale difference. Its grates on me.

That's why I had to go all or nothing on them. WHFB orcs can't really be in the same army as LotR ones.

Paired up against GW figures, there could be issues, but at the same time it still looks great.

For High Elf cavalry I use the Knights of Dol Amroth, who are awesome sculpts.

My Chaos forces (Beastmen and Knights) don't look al that bad either, because they're inherently big. Probably the worst part is Empire, but I sold off most of my Empire troops and replaced them with 25mm historicals who fit in very well with LotR stuff. The Riders of Rohan sets make excellent light to medium cavalry.

My brother uses LOTR figures as Duelists in his DOW army. Can't remember which models, but I remember him finding a box of 24 infantry and that was it. Gondor rangers, maybe?

When I had my DoW army, I wanted to use the LotR Uruk-hai pikes, but the scale difference is noticeable WHFB(28mm heroic) to LotR(25mm). Some units/terrain may be compatible, but you have to do your own research there.

I bought a Nazgul on winged beast for an Abyssal Terror for my Lahmian Countess. It is intended to be a vampiric wyvern. I never completed the conversion.

I will at some point buy a pair of eagles for my High Elf army, but have put this off because I have four old ones.

I will stop there. I didnt get into this game first time around, because I didnt want to saturate with another expensive gaming system. Nothing since has got me to change my outlook.

I used LOTR minis for 40K. Hobbits = Ratlings mercs in a Blood Axe Army

 Orlanth wrote:
I bought a Nazgul on winged beast for an Abyssal Terror for my Lahmian Countess. It is intended to be a vampiric wyvern. I never completed the conversion.

I will at some point buy a pair of eagles for my High Elf army, but have put this off because I have four old ones.

I will stop there. I didnt get into this game first time around, because I didnt want to saturate with another expensive gaming system. Nothing since has got me to change my outlook.

Well, the prices probably are not where they were, that's for sure. If you want an inexpensive fantasy rule set, try Conqueor: Fields of Victory. Link in my sig, and there's a thread in the fantasy games forum.

As to scale, yeah, that's why I had to go all-or-nothing for the various armies.

I have GW figures for Chaos (beastment and warriors) and Lizardmen, because they are somewhat unique. Undead are a mix of various makes, and that works because skeletons should be a random-looking group. The only other army with appreciable GW influence is Empire/Bretonnia (I regard humans as a dual-use force), and the only GW figures are from Battlemasters, which were closer to 25mm. The bulk of the army is made up of historicals, which fit perfectly with LotR's scale.

High Elves and Orcs/goblins are entirely LotR. Fun to have Elrond and Galadriel as characters.

I have Uruk-hai pikes, and also the Mordor orcs, sorted into great weapons and sword/shield blocs. Because of how the sprues were set up, I have an excess of goblin archers, and I've repurposed them into various other jobs. I've taken a bunch of goblins and made them wolf riders and they fit pretty well since they're posed in a deep crouch.

I will say that I technically didn't get rid of all my GW orc/goblin stuff because I saved some of the chariots and other bits for D&D purposes.

So you do this in reverse and downscale WHFB rather than try and upscale LotR to fit.

That should work if you provide everything and host both sides.

 Orlanth wrote:
So you do this in reverse and downscale WHFB rather than try and upscale LotR to fit.

That should work if you provide everything and host both sides.

The important thing is that the army be the right scale within itself, not that it match its opponents. Many WHFB armies vary in size. Chaos towers over Empire.

Having fought against GW figures, it looks fine.

I've always figured that chaos troops were taller because the real-world Scandinavians, and therefore Norskans, are taller than most of us puny southerners.
Personally size differences bother me too much to do this, even with my opponent. I've used Shelob as a proxy for a couple of different monsters, and that's it.

antia wrote:
I've always figured that chaos troops were taller because the real-world Scandinavians, and therefore Norskans, are taller than most of us point southerners.
Personally size differences bother me too much to do this, even with my opponent. I've used Shelob as a proxy for a couple of different monsters, and that's it.

Here's the thing, though: people within units are also different sizes. I look at my Basic Training class and if you made them in miniatures, you'd have 15mm to 28mm figures in the bunch.

I think the key element is that the army and its units have a consistent size and feel. Since we're in a fantasy world with all sorts of weird races running around, humanoids of varying sizes aren't as jarring as they would be using historicals.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
So you do this in reverse and downscale WHFB rather than try and upscale LotR to fit.

That should work if you provide everything and host both sides.

The important thing is that the army be the right scale within itself, not that it match its opponents. Many WHFB armies vary in size. Chaos towers over Empire.

Having fought against GW figures, it looks fine.

There is some logic to that. As basing standards will differ between armies, so why not model scale, within reason.

Chaos vs Empire is not a good example though, both are the same scale. Chaos Warriors are notably bigger and the Norse are a big people made hardy by their unnatural environment.


The model size difference is proportional to the canon faction size difference.

Not WHFB, but we had a player who ran his Gondor forces in our Kings of War games. His current obsession is SOIAF, so now he uses those, while most of us field armies of GW or GWish figures.

We're not too picky about scale as long as the unit footprints are correct.

 Eilif wrote:
Not WHFB, but we had a player who ran his Gondor forces in our Kings of War games. His current obsession is SOIAF, so now he uses those, while most of us field armies of GW or GWish figures.

We're not too picky about scale as long as the unit footprints are correct.

Right, and if the army itself is consistent internally, it's okay that it may be a slightly different size than its opponents because it's a fantasy world.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
]
Right, and if the army itself is consistent internally, it's okay that it may be a slightly different size than its opponents because it's a fantasy world.

True, most of our armies are internally consistent with the sizes of given races.
I have a unit of mixed Chaos foot knights of various brands but I've equalized their height in basing.

 Eilif wrote:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
]
Right, and if the army itself is consistent internally, it's okay that it may be a slightly different size than its opponents because it's a fantasy world.

True, most of our armies are internally consistent with the sizes of given races.
I have a unit of mixed Chaos foot knights of various brands but I've equalized their height in basing.

Same. Adding a bit here or there can give the desired consistency.

By the same token, if you want an army to look really ragged, multiple brands/manufacturers actually help. My Undead army is like that - a hodge-podge of various makes and sizes, but mixed together so that it looks like it's the products of multiple graveyards from multiple lands.

That being said, I use Ringwraiths as my Undead cavalry. Excellent models.

I thought I'd take some photos of my LotR units engaging Warhammer models. Here is a selection fighting Chaos Warriors, who truly tower over them. I think it works though.

Whoops! Got the goblin and orc photos reversed. I think you can figure it out.

You get away with that. You have to pick your combos, Rohan vs Empire would not work, but Moria Goblins vs Empire might.

Interesting timing for this thread to go to the top of the stack. I bought a box of The Hobbit - Great Eagles earlier today. It will arrive early January..

 Orlanth wrote:
You get away with that. You have to pick your combos, Rohan vs Empire would not work, but Moria Goblins vs Empire might.

Interesting timing for this thread to go to the top of the stack. I bought a box of The Hobbit - Great Eagles earlier today. It will arrive early January..

What I was trying to do was show the worst-case scenario for size mismatch. I don't think an Empire/Rohan look would be much different than early GW/later GW figure sizes.

Despite owning hundreds of models, very few of my Fantasy troops are Warhammer. As noted above, I replaced my High Elves, orcs and goblins with LotR. My Empire/Bretonnian troops are almost entirely historicals, which not only have better proportions but cost 1/3 as much.

Relying on LotR did initially limit force selection, particularly for High Elves. Basically they have archers, spearelves and greatswords, with some custom bolt throwers mixed in. Riders of Rohan can serve as light cavalry, but for heavy cavalry I used historicals until I was able to score some Knights of Dol Amroth.

When WHFB 7th edition was announced, I made up my mind to build my own rules (Conqueror: Fields of Victory) rather than buy the new edition, which has opened up my options considerably since you can run WHFB units using the Conqueor system as well as make new ones.

I have no problem with Empire vs Rohan. I assume much of folks opinions will boil down to what personally bothers an individual aesthetically, but folks would do well to consider how much they want to encourage scale uniformity in light of how it may affect their gaming community. The umbrella under which my opinions reside is very much related to the long view, what I most like about wargaming and what's best for my gaming community.

Regarding the long view, I'm settled into wargaming as my long-term hobby. Whether an army I started building 10 years ago that includes figures 30+ years old, or the army I'm building now out of contemporary figures, I fully expect to get decades of use out of each force. For now that's Kings of War, but who knows what ruleset they will fight under in another 10 years? Most of my wargaming group is fielding armies that have been built over a decade or more and are very well painted and often converted. Only one of us has the time and motivation to be able to field multiple fantasy armies across multiple scales and get them painted at a regular pace.

Regarding my personal gaming preferences, I like to have consistency in my own Chaos force, but I have little desire to carry that over to my opponents. My fat 28-30mm vintage Chaos warriors have faced off against weedy Gondorians and giant Starks and it makes no difference to me. Most importantly, to me, paint or lack thereof is by far the most jarring aesthetic aspect when gaming. I want that "Spectacle of painted armies". I'm going to put down nothing but painted figures and I'm going to make sure that the scenery looks just as good. So, if your army is painted and somewhere between 25 and 34mm, I'm a happy camper.

As for community, putting together a rank-and-flank force is a significant commitment of time and money that's hard to replicate often for most folks. It may be self-defeating to one's own gaming and gaming community to try and enforce scale specificity. IMO, it's far better to accept scale deviation if it assists in folks being willing to put in the time to build their armies.

 Eilif wrote:


Regarding my personal gaming preferences, I like to have consistency in my own Chaos force, but I have little desire to carry that over to my opponents. My fat 28-30mm vintage Chaos warriors have faced off against weedy Gondorians and giant Starks and it makes no difference to me. Most importantly, to me, paint or lack thereof is by far the most jarring aesthetic aspect when gaming. I want that "Spectacle of painted armies". I'm going to put down nothing but painted figures and I'm going to make sure that the scenery looks just as good. So, if your army is painted and somewhere between 25 and 34mm, I'm a happy camper.

I completely agree. Our old gaming group had a fellow who simply refused to paint his figures. It was really annoying.

As for community, putting together a rank-and-flank force is a significant commitment of time and money that's hard to replicate often for most folks. It may be self-defeating to one's own gaming and gaming community to try and enforce scale specificity. IMO, it's far better to accept scale deviation if it assists in folks being willing to put in the time to build their armies.

Again, we are in perfect agreement. I love the look of two fully painted ranked armies set to engage. Once the units crash into each other, its different because you have the ranks getting jostled, casualties are being removed, etc.

Also, from a distance the size difference just isn't that big of a deal. I find when the lines are engaged, you're mostly looking for breakthroughs or worrying about the flanks rather than minor variations in figure size.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
You get away with that. You have to pick your combos, Rohan vs Empire would not work, but Moria Goblins vs Empire might.

Interesting timing for this thread to go to the top of the stack. I bought a box of The Hobbit - Great Eagles earlier today. It will arrive early January..

What I was trying to do was show the worst-case scenario for size mismatch. I don't think an Empire/Rohan look would be much different than early GW/later GW figure sizes.

I think you mistake what a worst case scenario would be. Which is human to human. Chaos Warriors while essentially human are buffed beyond normality, and goblins can be any size.

I could use LotR orcs as a Warhammer army, I wont but I could, as they are a fantasy race. Whether they are orcs or gobbos is a question, most likely the latter but still possibly the former. They dont need to be big and green to be S3 T4.
You could match any LotR faction models, within reason, against Lizardmen, because they are entirely detached from scale reality. A saurus works the same at any scale frankly They could be towering giants or knee high.
Naturally some extremes would take you away from the Warhammer system.

 Orlanth wrote:


I think you mistake what a worst case scenario would be. Which is human to human. Chaos Warriors while essentially human are buffed beyond normality, and goblins can be any size.

But people come in different sizes as well, and the type of armor worn also matters. The Rohirrim don't have big crests on their helmets while the Empire often does, which makes the models look bigger.

Historically, that was the point. Tall bearskin hats exist for a reason.

To put it another way, I've been using these figures since the movies came out and at no point was I troubled by size variation.

There's also the issue of being a figure snob. I'm not so awash in possible opponents that I will turn away a late 28+mm "late" Empire army opponent simply because the figures are bigger.

I think the superior proportions, posing and detail make up for any perceived lack of size.

I use goblin town goblins in my undead, I think they paint up good for ghouls.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

I think you mistake what a worst case scenario would be. Which is human to human. Chaos Warriors while essentially human are buffed beyond normality, and goblins can be any size.

But people come in different sizes as well, and the type of armor worn also matters. The Rohirrim don't have big crests on their helmets while the Empire often does, which makes the models look bigger.

But it looks jarring, ignore it in others, let them play but try to avoid this long term if you can.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

There's also the issue of being a figure snob. I'm not so awash in possible opponents that I will turn away a late 28+mm "late" Empire army opponent simply because the figures are bigger.

No one is expecting you to be a D.

 Orlanth wrote:


But it looks jarring, ignore it in others, let them play but try to avoid this long term if you can.

I guess I'm not clear by what you mean.

I can and do use Riders of Rohan with my Empire army and they look fine - in part because I don't have them stacked next to the infantry. They're off on the flank, looking suave, doing their thing.

My Empire troops are mostly historicals, so they match well to the LotR figures.

As I've said, the integrity of the figures within the army is essential, and that is why when I made the decision to use LotR orc, goblins and elves, I got rid of all my GW figures of those types. Because I don't like Peter Jackson's wargs, I remounted Moria goblins on GW wolves, and they fit quite well.

Unquestionably my most eclectic army is the Undead, which is a hodge-podge of whatever I could find. Because the undead are, you know, a bunch of disparate corpses, the lack of consistency is a feature, not a bug.

I use mounted Ringwraiths is my skeletal knights and they look superb.