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One would also assume, just based on the Candidate Selection Process that one couldn’t pass off a scrawny wee get as the child of an Astartes?

I mean, if my premise is wrong (entirely possible, if not outright most likely) and the genetic changes don’t cause speciation, the Astartes would still have been a Big Strapping Lad in the first place?

Though mark you my brother and I are indeed Big Strapping Lads (both over 6’) in a family of short arses, our Dad being the next tallest at 5’8”. Though family research shows a paternal ancestor not only to be 6’, but the first Policeman in Edinburgh recorded as being shot. Because genetics is like, really weird!

Andykp wrote:If marines can produce children it isn’t in fluff. Whether this issue is inability or disinclination it doesn’t matter I suppose. I am open to female marines being allowed and they exist in my custom chapter so in my head cannon they can’t reproduce because if they could they would and we needed all that progenoid collection and stuff.

I got very intrigued when reading a gaunts ghost novel where a child claimed his dad was a marine, only for it to be dismissed fantasy by a poor orphan child very quickly. It’s intriguing though, that marines could have normal human families dotted around the galaxy. I don’t think marine life would blend well with family life.

Technically, Marines are recruited at just a high-enough age that the aspirant could have farthered a child before their "ascension". It isn't impossible for a child to have a Marine dad even if Marines cannot breed after the implantation process.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:One would also assume, just based on the Candidate Selection Process that one couldn’t pass off a scrawny wee get as the child of an Astartes?

I mean, if my premise is wrong (entirely possible, if not outright most likely) and the genetic changes don’t cause speciation, the Astartes would still have been a Big Strapping Lad in the first place?

Though mark you my brother and I are indeed Big Strapping Lads (both over 6’) in a family of short arses, our Dad being the next tallest at 5’8”. Though family research shows a paternal ancestor not only to be 6’, but the first Policeman in Edinburgh recorded as being shot. Because genetics is like, really weird!

If the Blood Angels are anything to go by, an aspirant can be pretty physically unhealthy and still be turned into a powerful Marine by the implants

TBF the Blood Angels are pretty special in that regard. Not all of the Legions had geneseed that was as "pure" as the 9th. They might have been a bit bloodthirsty but their geneseed is incredibly powerful in turning the most mutated human into a beautiful angel-esque Astartes.
The Ultramarines and Fists have very stable geneseed but the ability to turn mole men into super soldiers is worth the trade off for the Blood Angels flaws.

Ah but the 9th might just be remembering what the gene line tasted like and shaping themselves like that.
Id have to go way back to the, now heretical tomes of the Inquisition Wars. I vaguely remember a EC buggering someone

Yes, my biotech degree is useful for my hobby! If I can dredge out those memories...

Some madman needs to write some sort of Fabius Bile lab book.

I'd be curious if a cloned space marine would have all his extra organs intact or if those would have to be implanted like a new aspirant. That would rule out if a space marine is its own organism or just a modified human. But I would have to assume a clone would be born without those organs. The gene therapy an aspirant goes through could be just enough to avoid organ rejection, adding the right sequences for better compatibility with the immune system and the hypothalamus. It's also worth mentioning that these modifications should be applicable both sexes.

As for other abhumans, the real tell is if they could have grandchildren. Donkeys and horses can give birth to mules, but the mules are infertile. So, there would have to be 1/4 abhumans out there or the eclesiarchy would purge the abhumans as xenos. Although, I strongly suspect that the Imperium's purity laws are made up.

Haighus wrote:If the Blood Angels are anything to go by, an aspirant can be pretty physically unhealthy and still be turned into a powerful Marine by the implants

I fear you’ve missed the thrust (oooer!) of my post.

Natives of Baal are (were? given Hive Fleet) affected by the environment of Baal, sure. And yes elevation to Astartes took care of that.

But, whilst I as ever remain open to contrary citation, they still remain human despite the many their home world inflicts upon their physical bodies.

A further point of discussion would be should a fully fledged and developed Blood Angel Astartes somehow get a baseline human pregnant (and again, we’re without citation to say that’s impossible, because highly improbable is not the same) would their child or children be more resistant, let alone immune, to the same debilitating conditions?

Isn't the answer to this entire thread just "Cawl"? It ends when everyone is a 12' genius AI centipede/person thing. If Cawl isn't the pinacle of enhancement, I can't foresee what might be? I mean, maybe the Eldar have a better answer, but for humanity, it's gotta be Cawl. He still classifies as human right?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not sure it is that clear cut.

Marines for certain are changed on a genetic level. Which suggests that, if they’re capable of reproduction, those changes would be part and parcel?

Possibly, though not necessarily.

Marines could be Chimeras. This can happen naturally if a fraternal twin absorbs its twin in the womb. The result is a human with two complete sets of DNA depending on where you take a sample from. Marines could have their marine DNA which exists in their changed organs and body parts, but unaltered parts could still have their base DNA. This would probably include the reproductive organs since none of the changes involve those. So any children would be getting the marine's base DNA prior to becoming a Marine.

However, if the marine DNA changes are through the whole body, likely it simply renders them sterile. Any offspring conceived would either be horribly mutated and die before birth or conception would simply be impossible.

I am going to say the first is the more likely scenario.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

A further point of discussion would be should a fully fledged and developed Blood Angel Astartes somehow get a baseline human pregnant (and again, we’re without citation to say that’s impossible, because highly improbable is not the same) would their child or children be more resistant, let alone immune, to the same debilitating conditions?

Nope. Another disinformative, motivated description of the current landscape of possibilities.

We are without citation and without evidence to say it is possible.

We are without citation but with extensive evidence to say it is impossible.

As a far as I am aware space marines lose their sex drive, desire for romance and psychical relationships as they go through the process of becoming astartes.

It has been said there is no evidence for this but there is in the fact that if they were capable of sexual or romantic relationships they would exist between astartes in some of the hundreds of novels written about them.

Personally I think it’s a Good move by GW to take sexuality out of the picture for space marines and just not even mention it one way or the other, it’s just an aspect of the world we don’t need considering it’s put at the center of almost every other fiction.

The only exception I’ve seen, to what I have said above, is in one of the Fabius bile books where an EC asks Bile if he’s finally succumbed to the pleasures of the flesh. Bile is repulsed by the suggestion.

Pleasures of the flesh doesn't just mean sex though. Narcotics, flagellation, torture, food, drink, rampant slaughter for the thrill, all of these are things the adherents of Slaanesh seek. While mortal devotees might very well enjoy pleasure cults with the more sexual aspects, AFAIK Astartes still can't do that (outside of fanfiction that is and that is best left alone).
The Emperor's Children didn't fall to Slaanesh because of a sex cult after all, it was through art, music, or sculpture and for many it was finding new ways to experience pain and gaining pleasure from the experience.

I think it should also be pointed out that sex is not technically needed for reproduction. There are procedures for extracting and storing various forms of gametes. If transhumans could be produced through sexual reproduction, someone in the 40k universe would have manufactured an artificial system for it. So, whether a space marine is celibate or not is a little moot.

But, speaking of the 3rd legion, its worth pointing out that even those hedonists of pure excess and wanton pleasure basically never get sexual in the actual canon, but almost always focus on some other form of excess, be it martial skill, noise creation or perfection of medical craft, but never really anything sexual.

That is pretty strong negative evidence that the changes to marines preclude sexuality.

Also, if im not mistaken, most marines are taken as pre-pubescent boys, slightly before the growth of sexual desire. Is it not possible that full grown marines basically never go though puberty as we understand it, and never acquire the desire to procreate?

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Yes, my biotech degree is useful for my hobby! If I can dredge out those memories...

Some madman needs to write some sort of Fabius Bile lab book.

I'd be curious if a cloned space marine would have all his extra organs intact or if those would have to be implanted like a new aspirant. That would rule out if a space marine is its own organism or just a modified human. But I would have to assume a clone would be born without those organs. The gene therapy an aspirant goes through could be just enough to avoid organ rejection, adding the right sequences for better compatibility with the immune system and the hypothalamus. It's also worth mentioning that these modifications should be applicable both sexes.

As for other abhumans, the real tell is if they could have grandchildren. Donkeys and horses can give birth to mules, but the mules are infertile. So, there would have to be 1/4 abhumans out there or the eclesiarchy would purge the abhumans as xenos. Although, I strongly suspect that the Imperium's purity laws are made up.

That’s the point of abhumans, they technically are a sub species (as suggested by their naming, homo Saipan rotundus for example). So they would have fertile off spring who would produce genetically stable and fertile offspring themselves. If not they would be labelled mutants and killed. I find the explanation of why beastmen aren’t tolerated anymore to be interesting. Too unstable so must be warp spawn mutants.

Andykp wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Yes, my biotech degree is useful for my hobby! If I can dredge out those memories...

Some madman needs to write some sort of Fabius Bile lab book.

I'd be curious if a cloned space marine would have all his extra organs intact or if those would have to be implanted like a new aspirant. That would rule out if a space marine is its own organism or just a modified human. But I would have to assume a clone would be born without those organs. The gene therapy an aspirant goes through could be just enough to avoid organ rejection, adding the right sequences for better compatibility with the immune system and the hypothalamus. It's also worth mentioning that these modifications should be applicable both sexes.

As for other abhumans, the real tell is if they could have grandchildren. Donkeys and horses can give birth to mules, but the mules are infertile. So, there would have to be 1/4 abhumans out there or the eclesiarchy would purge the abhumans as xenos. Although, I strongly suspect that the Imperium's purity laws are made up.

That’s the point of abhumans, they technically are a sub species (as suggested by their naming, homo Saipan rotundus for example). So they would have fertile off spring who would produce genetically stable and fertile offspring themselves. If not they would be labelled mutants and killed. I find the explanation of why beastmen aren’t tolerated anymore to be interesting. Too unstable so must be warp spawn mutants.

But it works the other way around. Subspecies cannot interbreed, at least not with fertile offspring, but most mutants can. So that ghoul that was chased into the underhive for having too many fingers and teeth could have children with normal a human, but not with an ogryn or ratling. At least if abhumans really are a subspecies. That's why I feel the Imperium's stance on 'abhor the mutants' is rather flimsy and based more upon what is appealing or useful.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
I think it should also be pointed out that sex is not technically needed for reproduction. There are procedures for extracting and storing various forms of gametes. If transhumans could be produced through sexual reproduction, someone in the 40k universe would have manufactured an artificial system for it. So, whether a space marine is celibate or not is a little moot.

Isn’t that the gene seed process? Removed from fallen marines, combined with a baseline human in a lab you create new marines. This is how they reproduce.

Would be interesting to see over 100,000s years if evolution affected gene seeds

Andykp wrote:
If marines can produce children it isn’t in fluff. Whether this issue is inability or disinclination it doesn’t matter I suppose. I am open to female marines being allowed and they exist in my custom chapter so in my head cannon they can’t reproduce because if they could they would and we needed all that progenoid collection and stuff.

I got very intrigued when reading a gaunts ghost novel where a child claimed his dad was a marine, only for it to be dismissed fantasy by a poor orphan child very quickly. It’s intriguing though, that marines could have normal human families dotted around the galaxy. I don’t think marine life would blend well with family life.

Well, for some chapters it does happen on an extended family level. Uncle or Great Uncle Space Marine is a thing that happens and moreover, in some chapters, everyone involved knows. This is particularly true with Salamanders (who probably have the most contact with normal humans of Vulkan), Ultramarines (though outside official reasons, probably doesn't happen that often, but say a planetary colonel or general reporting on military activity or training) and somewhat bizarrely, Iron Hands, though I imagine that's awkward at best, even though they do have some interaction with Medusan clans.

On the other end, you've got Space Wolves, who just have anonymous wolf priests creeping around and spying on skirmishes and taking promising losers away from the battlefield.


---
Traditional reproduction doesn't make any sense for marines. If it worked at all, someone in the Imperium would do it, rather than rely on the survival of the 'twice and done' progenoid glands, the both of which take a fair amount of time to mature (5 and 10 years) and aren't guaranteed to survive battle. That's a nasty limiter on your super-soldiers, even if you want to keep numbers down to keep them under control. Some bad luck (near destruction of chapters happens), a storage fire and you're SOL for the defense of the Imperium (though you've got to extra ignore the fact that GW's numbers are gibberish).

 Mr Nobody wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Yes, my biotech degree is useful for my hobby! If I can dredge out those memories...

Some madman needs to write some sort of Fabius Bile lab book.

I'd be curious if a cloned space marine would have all his extra organs intact or if those would have to be implanted like a new aspirant. That would rule out if a space marine is its own organism or just a modified human. But I would have to assume a clone would be born without those organs. The gene therapy an aspirant goes through could be just enough to avoid organ rejection, adding the right sequences for better compatibility with the immune system and the hypothalamus. It's also worth mentioning that these modifications should be applicable both sexes.

As for other abhumans, the real tell is if they could have grandchildren. Donkeys and horses can give birth to mules, but the mules are infertile. So, there would have to be 1/4 abhumans out there or the eclesiarchy would purge the abhumans as xenos. Although, I strongly suspect that the Imperium's purity laws are made up.

That’s the point of abhumans, they technically are a sub species (as suggested by their naming, homo Saipan rotundus for example). So they would have fertile off spring who would produce genetically stable and fertile offspring themselves. If not they would be labelled mutants and killed. I find the explanation of why beastmen aren’t tolerated anymore to be interesting. Too unstable so must be warp spawn mutants.

But it works the other way around. Subspecies cannot interbreed, at least not with fertile offspring, but most mutants can. So that ghoul that was chased into the underhive for having too many fingers and teeth could have children with normal a human, but not with an ogryn or ratling. At least if abhumans really are a subspecies. That's why I feel the Imperium's stance on 'abhor the mutants' is rather flimsy and based more upon what is appealing or useful.

I meant a sub species can breed within the sub species producing more of that sub species. Not different subspecies’s mixing. So, squat on squat action makes more squats, nice and stable. Squat on halfling would make some infertile wee thing, unstable and not cool. But if two mutants did the nasty then the outcome would be very random or normal.

It’s important to note as well that a 40k mutant is not a “science” mutant. Real mutation is unavoidable and needed for species survival and evolution. 40k mutation is exposure to the twisted energies of the warp and chaos influence. BAD. But as you say, any poor soul born with too many fingers or and extra nipple would still be worried.

 Mr Nobody wrote:


But it works the other way around. Subspecies cannot interbreed, at least not with fertile offspring, but most mutants can. So that ghoul that was chased into the underhive for having too many fingers and teeth could have children with normal a human, but not with an ogryn or ratling. At least if abhumans really are a subspecies. That's why I feel the Imperium's stance on 'abhor the mutants' is rather flimsy and based more upon what is appealing or useful.

I was under the impression that the defining characteristic of subspecies vs species is that subspecies are sufficiently similar to each other to interbreed and produce fertile offspring, which is why they are considered part of the same species. Once a population becomes sufficiently different that it can no longer breed and produce fertile offspring with the other popularions, it has speciated and became an entirely new species rather than merely a subspecies.

A good example being grey wolves, with 38 extant subspecies including the domestic dog.

Subspecies IRL definitely can breed with each other. Thats why Coywolves, Coydogs, Wolfhounds, etc... exist.

Heck, even some different species can breed fertile offspring. American Bison and domestic cattle can create fertile offspring. This is actually an issue for American bison as many bison in captivity and in the wild have domestic cow DNA in them.

Creating infertile offspring(a Mule) isn't necessarily always the case.

 Haighus wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:


But it works the other way around. Subspecies cannot interbreed, at least not with fertile offspring, but most mutants can. So that ghoul that was chased into the underhive for having too many fingers and teeth could have children with normal a human, but not with an ogryn or ratling. At least if abhumans really are a subspecies. That's why I feel the Imperium's stance on 'abhor the mutants' is rather flimsy and based more upon what is appealing or useful.

I was under the impression that the defining characteristic of subspecies vs species is that subspecies are sufficiently similar to each other to interbreed and produce fertile offspring, which is why they are considered part of the same species. Once a population becomes sufficiently different that it can no longer breed and produce fertile offspring with the other popularions, it has speciated and became an entirely new species rather than merely a subspecies.

A good example being grey wolves, with 38 extant subspecies including the domestic dog.

In reality you get all sorts of weird effect, like for example Ring Species - so for example a Ratling could interbreed with a baseline human, but not with an Ogryn. And of course the definition of ''baseline'' is also not that clear in 40k.