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In my vain quest to get my friends interested in wargaming, I'm thinking of using One Page Rule's Grimdark Future to see if that gels with them.
What, in your opinion, would be some of the best factions or even lists to introduce someone?

Edit: Also, are there any ally rules in Grimdark Future?

 JNAProductions wrote:
In my vain quest to get my friends interested in wargaming, I'm thinking of using One Page Rule's Grimdark Future to see if that gels with them.
What, in your opinion, would be some of the best factions or even lists to introduce someone?

Edit: Also, are there any ally rules in Grimdark Future?

There are ally rules in the full rules and you can build allied forces in the online force builder. https://army-forge.onepagerules.com/ I highly recommend joining the Patreon.

One of the beauties of Grimdark Future is that there are no particularly complicated or imbalanced armies. An army like Battle Brothers or Prime Brothers might be easier just due to having fewer figures on average.

Do you already have any 4OK or similar armies?

If starting from scratch, Grimdark Firefight might be a good option as it's sized like Kill Team.

Doesn't matter, OPR has about the same complexity in all factions, there's no weird army mechanics like Faith Points or Canticles or that sort of dumb gak. Grab whatever looks good and inspires you to model, paint and/or play.

My gaming group is just about to give Grimdark Future - Firefight a go in lieu of Kill Team. We struggled with a Necromunda campaign in the past (there was just too much rules bloat for people that can only dabble in the game every 4-6 weeks and only have a few hours to play) and while KT doesn't seem as bad as that, I could see the campaign ending the same way. The GDF - Firefight rules seem to be a good combination of catching the essence of Kill Team, without an obsessive amount of special rules to remember. Am looking forward to giving the rules a go.

 Pacific wrote:
My gaming group is just about to give Grimdark Future - Firefight a go in lieu of Kill Team. We struggled with a Necromunda campaign in the past (there was just too much rules bloat for people that can only dabble in the game every 4-6 weeks and only have a few hours to play) and while KT doesn't seem as bad as that, I could see the campaign ending the same way. The GDF - Firefight rules seem to be a good combination of catching the essence of Kill Team, without an obsessive amount of special rules to remember. Am looking forward to giving the rules a go.

Also consider games from the Frostgrave/Stargrave stable. 1 book, good freedom in gang composition but you only level up 1-2 characters, the rest are mooks. Overall gameplay should be better since it's built from the get go for gang skirmish, not a cut down version of an "army" game.

Firefight is well regarded game and worth trying. However, for a cheap ($5) rules option that is lighter than Stargrave, but with alot of Rogue Trader flavor and some really solid mechanics, I highly recommend "Space Weirdos".
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/359157/Space-Weirdos

Recently had a great game.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2023/01/aar-first-try-with-space-wierdos/

And then my opponent did a deep writeup explaining the virtues of the dice bumping mechanics and some of the other rules mechanics.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2023/02/space-weirdos-review-and-number-crunching/
Note that it does not have a campaign system.

One last suggestion for your Necromunda gangs would be to give original Necromunda a chance. The "Necromunda Community Edition" at Yaktribe is a nicely cleaned up, clarified and edited version of the original rules without changing anything major. All the gangs, all the rules, one book. You have to sign into their forums to access it, but it's free and very much worth your time.

Thanks for the comment Eilif - we might well give those rules a try again, but for now are going to stick with OPR: GFF - a few fingers were burned last time, so want to try and get some people back into gaming with some easy, fun games before they get scared off wargaming for good. 'Filthy casuals' I hear people say!

Have now played Grimdark Future Firefight, and have to say it was really good fun. I can understand now why people go on about it so much. We played a 200pt game and, despite never having played before, finished the game in about 45-50 minutes. A couple of bits we had to look up (jumping off platforms, multi-fighter combats) but the rules are so intuitive that they are really easy to learn. A rifle, is a rifle, and has the same stat-line regardless of which unit is holding it, so once you learn the quality and defense rolls of your guys you can just get on with the game and enjoying it, thinking of strategy etc.
As a contrast, some guys behind us were playing the new Necromunda - about a third of the table covered in rule books and print-outs and stood most of the time leafing through stuff, I think they barely finished a turn before we had finished our game.

And there were no less 'cinematic' moments, despite the lack of complexity. We're looking forward to adding a few of the optional special rules (with things like overwatch and 'hunker down') as well as a few of the extra missions and scenarios, as well as adding some campaign elements. Hopefully there will be enough there to keep interest, while not overloading the players.

Glad you enjoyed it! OPR rules are great.

Played a 3 person game of Grimdark Future with the club this week. Despite each person fielding 2000 points, one player being new to the rules and one only having played one game of "1 Page 40K" years ago, we finished in under 3 hours and everyone had a great time.

As for New-Crow-Munda, it really does seem like a mess. I bought the Underhive and a few Gang Wars and as soon as I realized where it was all going I sold it all off except for the Goliath figures. I'll stick with my old gangs and old rules which are all nicely contained in one book.

If you really get down to it, there's several generalized levels of variation to forces in any of the OPR games, whether you are playing army-scale or skirmish level, Fantasy or Sci-fi. They don't really add complexity, it's mostly what play style speaks to you.

This really shows well in the two skirmish games.

1. Expensive forces who have good Quality and Defense but always be outnumbered.

2. "Horde" forces who have crap troops, but lots of them.

3. Generalist forces who are an even mix of both of the above.

4. Forces who have lots of units with Tough, so at first blush they are an even more extreme variation of #1. But only "kind of" because of how OPR functions. A single model with Tough [3] is going to function almost identically to a unit with 3 normal models- though but it sure does make them look extremely elite!

For example, Eternal Wardens versus Orcs in fantasy is going to look like 3-4 badass Paladins fighting a dozen enemies. Or a bunch of soldiers for the King trying to stave off an attack by 3-4 angry Ogres.

As an aside, Pacific, I might have missed if it was in the things being talked about above, but there is also a $5 "expansion" to Grimdark Future Firefight called Gang Wars, which adds in Necromunda-styled gangs and campaigns.

But there is also a really good (free, so painless to try) Campaign add-on in the "Resources" section of the GFF page on OPR. Really quick and easy ways to have each player's fighters grow, get wounded, or die forever over the course of several games, rather than just being stock models chosen fresh from the army list for each game, as well as some crazy random events if you want such things as well.

I could get a perfectly happy rules-lite Frostgrave/ Mordheim fix (Mordheim is an old Warhammer skirmish game) just using some of my favorite models, the full Age of Fantasy:Skirmish rulebook, with the free Campaign rules (the campaign rules are essentially identical for either fantasy or Sci-fi)

 AegisGrimm wrote:
If you really get down to it, there's several generalized levels of variation to forces in any of the OPR games, whether you are playing army-scale or skirmish level, Fantasy or Sci-fi. They don't really add complexity, it's mostly what play style speaks to you.

This really shows well in the two skirmish games.

1. Expensive forces who have good Quality and Defense but always be outnumbered.

2. "Horde" forces who have crap troops, but lots of them.

3. Generalist forces who are an even mix of both of the above.

4. Forces who have lots of units with Tough, so at first blush they are an even more extreme variation of #1. But only "kind of" because of how OPR functions. A single model with Tough [3] is going to function almost identically to a unit with 3 normal models- though but it sure does make them look extremely elite!

For example, Eternal Wardens versus Orcs in fantasy is going to look like 3-4 badass Paladins fighting a dozen enemies. Or a bunch of soldiers for the King trying to stave off an attack by 3-4 angry Ogres.

As an aside, Pacific, I might have missed if it was in the things being talked about above, but there is also a $5 "expansion" to Grimdark Future Firefight called Gang Wars, which adds in Necromunda-styled gangs and campaigns.

But there is also a really good (free, so painless to try) Campaign add-on in the "Resources" section of the GFF page on OPR. Really quick and easy ways to have each player's fighters grow, get wounded, or die forever over the course of several games, rather than just being stock models chosen fresh from the army list for each game, as well as some crazy random events if you want such things as well.

I could get a perfectly happy rules-lite Frostgrave/ Mordheim fix (Mordheim is an old Warhammer skirmish game) just using some of my favorite models, the full Age of Fantasy:Skirmish rulebook, with the free Campaign rules (the campaign rules are essentially identical for either fantasy or Sci-fi)

The forces really do lack personality. I wonder how many armies across both systems could make identical lists? Quality 5 def 5 is so common it has to be possible right?

Space marines are the go to beginner list. They're strong and hard to kill so they're really forgiving and punishing to mess up against with global app.

What size armies are people playing I've been looking at fantasy and 750 feels a big game there. But 1500 seems a good point for grim dark. You get 1 of your toys while 2000 seems like 1000 points of troops and 2 toys with a wizard tagging along. The vehicles and monsters are so expensive you're jumping 500 or so points to include them. I'm looking to play on a 3 foot by 3 foot table and it's hard to see 2k points being a lot different to 1k in terms of army size.

Maybe that's just my style of list building though. I like all rounder lists and some big center piece thing and others can jam in 10 extra units and go full gibbles on everyone's ankle

Yo7 wrote:


What size armies are people playing I've been looking at fantasy and 750 feels a big game there. But 1500 seems a good point for grim dark. You get 1 of your toys while 2000 seems like 1000 points of troops and 2 toys with a wizard tagging along. The vehicles and monsters are so expensive you're jumping 500 or so points to include them. I'm looking to play on a 3 foot by 3 foot table and it's hard to see 2k points being a lot different to 1k in terms of army size.

YMMV, but If I had a 3x3, I'd probably stick with the skirmish versions. For me the whole charm of Grimdark Future is big battles. I feel the game only starts humming at around 1500 points. We usually play Grimdark at 2000 pts on a 4x6.

For a smaller games, you can probably make do with lower point units to keep the number of units up.

 Eilif wrote:

Yo7 wrote:


What size armies are people playing I've been looking at fantasy and 750 feels a big game there. But 1500 seems a good point for grim dark. You get 1 of your toys while 2000 seems like 1000 points of troops and 2 toys with a wizard tagging along. The vehicles and monsters are so expensive you're jumping 500 or so points to include them. I'm looking to play on a 3 foot by 3 foot table and it's hard to see 2k points being a lot different to 1k in terms of army size.

YMMV, but If I had a 3x3, I'd probably stick with the skirmish versions. For me the whole charm of Grimdark Future is big battles. I feel the game only starts humming at around 1500 points. We usually play Grimdark at 2000 pts on a 4x6.

For a smaller games, you can probably make do with lower point units to keep the number of units up.

Skirmish has really really bad balance. Marines are all but unstoppable because of their stats and barely cost more than a basic troop with q5 and no ap. They reliably remove a model a turn and have like 25% chance of being removed themselves. And the elite nature makes those activations swiftly turn in their favour. That's why I was looking at the usual game size, but I don't enjoy huge games. Any more than 40 models except a horde army and its getting too big for me and too many wound counters for relevant models.

 Eilif wrote:

Yo7 wrote:


What size armies are people playing I've been looking at fantasy and 750 feels a big game there. But 1500 seems a good point for grim dark. You get 1 of your toys while 2000 seems like 1000 points of troops and 2 toys with a wizard tagging along. The vehicles and monsters are so expensive you're jumping 500 or so points to include them. I'm looking to play on a 3 foot by 3 foot table and it's hard to see 2k points being a lot different to 1k in terms of army size.

YMMV, but If I had a 3x3, I'd probably stick with the skirmish versions. For me the whole charm of Grimdark Future is big battles. I feel the game only starts humming at around 1500 points. We usually play Grimdark at 2000 pts on a 4x6.

For a smaller games, you can probably make do with lower point units to keep the number of units up.

I'll second this and would go further, after our first couple of testgames 2000P felt too small and went with 3000P. I think the game gets more interesting at this size and you get more toys on the table. Totally depends on what you want from the game though and, probably, how you approached 40K before .

Yo7 wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

Yo7 wrote:


What size armies are people playing I've been looking at fantasy and 750 feels a big game there. But 1500 seems a good point for grim dark. You get 1 of your toys while 2000 seems like 1000 points of troops and 2 toys with a wizard tagging along. The vehicles and monsters are so expensive you're jumping 500 or so points to include them. I'm looking to play on a 3 foot by 3 foot table and it's hard to see 2k points being a lot different to 1k in terms of army size.

YMMV, but If I had a 3x3, I'd probably stick with the skirmish versions. For me the whole charm of Grimdark Future is big battles. I feel the game only starts humming at around 1500 points. We usually play Grimdark at 2000 pts on a 4x6.

For a smaller games, you can probably make do with lower point units to keep the number of units up.

Skirmish has really really bad balance. Marines are all but unstoppable because of their stats and barely cost more than a basic troop with q5 and no ap. They reliably remove a model a turn and have like 25% chance of being removed themselves. And the elite nature makes those activations swiftly turn in their favour. That's why I was looking at the usual game size, but I don't enjoy huge games. Any more than 40 models except a horde army and its getting too big for me and too many wound counters for relevant models.

I suppose the best option are probably Firefight without Marines or to play Grimdark Future with only small squads. If you pack the terrain in, and don't use vehicles, you could have a satisfying GF game in a small space with fewer units.

You might also want to look at the Osprey game Xenos Rampant. It's another miniature agnostic game but seems to be aimed at a game size midway between GF and GFF.

I suppose one person's 'personality' is another's 'complexity'! I've only had a couple of games so far with different factions and have found the game is perfectly characterful. We had 'Kroot' vaulting across terrain, their attack dogs charging in and being beaten back by doughty space-dwarves. One of them nestled in some terrain with a heavy machinegun mowing down anything that came out into the open, before the more mobile aliens managed to flank him. There was absolutely no shortage of things that you would regard as a cinematic experience, and the game is really that much more pleasurable because we're not searching through rulebooks to find which rule to apply.

On a related note, I always think, as much as people take the piss out of 40k 2nd-edition, the complexity of that game wasn't down to the weapon and character profiles - a lot of those were shared (or very similar) between units. You needed your rules referencing for some of the vehicle and wargear rules (and those were what took the time to referenece). The same with original Necromunda which worked perfectly well with a single human profile, you didn't need 19 of them and a memory like a Mentat to be able to recall, which give the impression (and I am quoting someone else's words here) of those games almost feeling that they were written "for us, not for them" by the game designers.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
If you really get down to it, there's several generalized levels of variation to forces in any of the OPR games, whether you are playing army-scale or skirmish level, Fantasy or Sci-fi. They don't really add complexity, it's mostly what play style speaks to you.

This really shows well in the two skirmish games.

1. Expensive forces who have good Quality and Defense but always be outnumbered.

2. "Horde" forces who have crap troops, but lots of them.

3. Generalist forces who are an even mix of both of the above.

4. Forces who have lots of units with Tough, so at first blush they are an even more extreme variation of #1. But only "kind of" because of how OPR functions. A single model with Tough [3] is going to function almost identically to a unit with 3 normal models- though but it sure does make them look extremely elite!

For example, Eternal Wardens versus Orcs in fantasy is going to look like 3-4 badass Paladins fighting a dozen enemies. Or a bunch of soldiers for the King trying to stave off an attack by 3-4 angry Ogres.

As an aside, Pacific, I might have missed if it was in the things being talked about above, but there is also a $5 "expansion" to Grimdark Future Firefight called Gang Wars, which adds in Necromunda-styled gangs and campaigns.

But there is also a really good (free, so painless to try) Campaign add-on in the "Resources" section of the GFF page on OPR. Really quick and easy ways to have each player's fighters grow, get wounded, or die forever over the course of several games, rather than just being stock models chosen fresh from the army list for each game, as well as some crazy random events if you want such things as well.

Thanks AegisGrimm, I have indeed splashed out on the $5 rules, and got the campaign rules too. We'll hopefully start using them as soon as some of the lazy people in our group can get their gak together and paint 3-4 miniatures!

I ran a "Grimdark Grinder" this weekend at TMX convention. We had 8 participants over the event with all but one controlling a 1000 point force. Over half ourparticipants had never played before or had only played a brief demo of an OPR skirmish game at the OPR table.

We had Guard, Tau an Necron (aka Human Defense Force, Dao and Robot Legions) and all functioned well. None of them seemed to be more difficult than others nor to have a notable advantage.

With a game like Grimdark Future the differences between forces will come not as much from the statlines, but from details in the weapons and in the few special rules employed as well as the units available (or not available) in each army.