Switch Theme:

How big a crater would a Baneblade shell make?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

If you, somehow and for whatever reason, decided to make something like a Baneblade cannon what sort of HE shell would that be comparable to?

I still remember a Soul Drinkers novel where they only fire the main cannon once because it’s that dangerous and the thing flattens a city block of Daemons. 😄


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in gb
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





Northumberland

As with all of these, the trick is to pick a real life similar weapon and then go mad with it to reach 40k standards.

Baneblades apparently have a 10 metre long cannon and regardless of how the cannon actually looks, I put solid money on the inspiration being something similar to a railway gun or the Vickers 45 calibre naval guns from WW1. Which were more or less the same thing
It's about double the length of most current MBT cannons.

So consider a railway gun direct firing as opposed to at a trajectory. The 40k tech means its going to be fairly sizeable crater. Could that wipe out a few buildings in a Hive city? Absolutely.





One and a half feet in the hobby


My Painting Log of various minis:
# Olthannon's Oscillating Orchard of Opportunity #

 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




A ship based deck gun is between 8-20 inches, depending on the navy, and depending on the warhead in that shell, they are actually more explosive than a 155mm howitzer shell. Look at pictures of the beaches of normandy after D-day to see how big a crater those things make. They can blow a hole in the earth roughly 5-10' deep, and maybe 20' wide?
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don’t think GW or FW ever gave a size of calibre to the Baneblade gun. Leman Russ is supposed to be a 120mm like most tanks today. Baneblade gun is probably similar to an 8 inch (203.2mm) naval gun, maybe larger.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/25 23:56:37


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

8 inch naval gun is probably a good guess. A full on HE shell could probably have 100ish KG of explosive filler. And yeah, it would flatten whole blocks. Possibly more depending on what crazy sci-fi filler they have in 40k.

Small nuclear warheads wouldn't be out of the question either.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







The Lexicanum page indicates the shells are 1m long. Assuming naval calibre guns, then The scaling photos on this page would imply that it’s somewhere between 8”(203mm) amd 10”(254mm).

https://www.mathscinotes.com/2020/01/battleship-shell-size-comparison/

If the quoted shell length includes an integral cased charge, then it would come all the way down to 4”(100mm)

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Yeah, the Wisconsin's quad arrays of 18" guns all firing at the same time is a shockingly disturbing site. For one thing a full broadside would literally push the ship back in the water almost 100m. Secondly, the target could be over 10 miles away.

The new US navy's railgun tech uses a demon magic that can fire ten times further, and has twice the explosive effect.
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Addendum - the barrel length is also quoted as 10m, which is also in the range for 8-10” naval guns.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in nz
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot



New Zealand

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, the Wisconsin's quad arrays of 18" guns all firing at the same time is a shockingly disturbing site. For one thing a full broadside would literally push the ship back in the water almost 100m. Secondly, the target could be over 10 miles away.

The new US navy's railgun tech uses a demon magic that can fire ten times further, and has twice the explosive effect.


You might want to check on that. US Wisconsin BB64 has 9x 16" guns in three turrets. And while the shockwave on the water is impressive it is not enough to move 45000+ tons sideways a detectable amount, let alone 100m.


From some research:
155mm is ~6.1" and can leave a crater around 5m across 1.8m deep
203mm is ~8" (I haven't found the crater size for it)
406mm is ~16" and can leave a crater around 15m across 6m deep

6" Shell weighs ~45kg
8" Shell weighs ~109kg
16" High Capacity Shell weighs 862kg

From what I can find (Its late and I want to go to bed) the 8" shell has just under 10kg of TNT explosive filler. The shells are likely to have a similar percentage as explosive filler. That would mean the 16" would have around 18x the explosive content of the 6" (9x the 8") but only triple the crater size.

So I suspect that an 8" shell would likely leave a crater 6m ish across and 2m ish deep. But that is likely for soil. Hard surfaces like concrete would have smaller craters.








   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Interesting thread, so an 8" gun with a bit of extra 40k oomph with the Imperium's better explosives. 8" shells are just above what a single human can load IIRC. I can't remember if Baneblades have any autoloading or load assists? Otherwise, they'd need an augmented loader or two loaders.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A ship based deck gun is between 8-20 inches, depending on the navy, and depending on the warhead in that shell, they are actually more explosive than a 155mm howitzer shell. Look at pictures of the beaches of normandy after D-day to see how big a crater those things make. They can blow a hole in the earth roughly 5-10' deep, and maybe 20' wide?

That sized crater is from the biggest shells- 14"-16" shells at D-Day. The 6" and 8" shells would make much smaller craters than the battleship guns as mentioned above. A 6" gun is ~150mm (primary armament for light cruisers of the era). I've been lucky enough to stand in the battleship-shell craters at Pointe du Hoc, terrifyingly large holes in the ground- I think these were "only" 14" shells from USS Texas too. Although nothing compared to the mine craters in Flanders, those are enormous

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in de
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Keep in mind, the shells fired onto landing spots by naval ships weren't just Detonate on impact High Ex. Some where. But many were a new (For the era) type of anti-emplacement round, almost "armor piercing" which to anyone who knows artillery, that's kinda hard to do. You don't choose exactly where you want a specific round to land. You choose a grid square, and you pound it into dust. So making specific rounds for specific targets was a fools errand. But they tried it on D-Day. They used special rounds that had delayed fuses, to punch deep into the (Hopefully) fortified structures, and THEN blow up. So those rounds make a SIGNIFICANTLY larger crater than your standard impact driven HE rounds.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

The Baneblade shells are probably 2-piece ammunition as well. With the projectile and charge being loaded one after the other. This slightly slows loading, but it allows for some extra safety as you can keep the more unstable charges in wet stowage while the less volatile projectiles can be kept somewhere else.

There is some artwork of the inside of a baneblade, and what I can see doesn't look like the main gun has an autoloader. At least not directly. It looks like shells come up from below via a lift and are then stowed in a ready rack for manual loading.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







This one seems to show an autoloader




Apologies for the source, but I think it’s official GW artwork.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Baneblade shells are probably 2-piece ammunition as well. With the projectile and charge being loaded one after the other. This slightly slows loading, but it allows for some extra safety as you can keep the more unstable charges in wet stowage while the less volatile projectiles can be kept somewhere else.

There is some artwork of the inside of a baneblade, and what I can see doesn't look like the main gun has an autoloader. At least not directly. It looks like shells come up from below via a lift and are then stowed in a ready rack for manual loading.


There are shells in the kit and are one piece, even though two piece makes sense. When you read the books about tanks in 40k the interior isn’t the same between versions, lots of variety. Some may have autoloaders or aids but others won’t. The new demolisher book, forget it’s name, there’s a chain pulley system for the shells but the loader has a bionic arm to assist.
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




 Flinty wrote:
This one seems to show an autoloader.


That's the ammunition feed for the coaxial autocannon. The shells are nowhere near large enough to match the main gun.

As for the gun, the original FW fluff was that it's a rocket-assisted shell like a bolter. It's a relatively low-velocity gun that relies primarily on payload weight over kinetic energy, so presumably that huge explosive charge is going to leave some impressive craters. Though maybe GW has retconned this, the new model doesn't have the vent holes on the barrel. Or the plastic pattern is a degraded version of the original Mars pattern with a scaled up battle cannon, much like cannon fodder cultists and PDF only get autoguns instead of bolters?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/29 09:55:44


 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







I don’t dispute that the shells look out of scale for the main gun, but the autocannon is on the other side of the main cannon. The shells shown In the lower image are also really massively too small. So I agree, my example images are no help at all

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




 Flinty wrote:
I don’t dispute that the shells look out of scale for the main gun, but the autocannon is on the other side of the main cannon. The shells shown In the lower image are also really massively too small. So I agree, my example images are no help at all


My assumption would be that the AC feed wraps around the bottom of the main gun and across to the other side.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I would posit they are for the main gun, but are just the projectile, linking up with the 2-piece ammunition theory.

Those two rings on the projectile are gas rings, they help create a seal as the projectile travels down the barrel. They would serve no purpose on the shell casing.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




 Grey Templar wrote:
I would posit they are for the main gun, but are just the projectile, linking up with the 2-piece ammunition theory.

Those two rings on the projectile are gas rings, they help create a seal as the projectile travels down the barrel. They would serve no purpose on the shell casing.


I suppose it could be intended to be that. It's a failure of scale to have those tiny shells next to the obviously much larger barrel but it wouldn't be the first time a GW artist hasn't understood how things fit together.
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Not just the artist. Even on the model actually firing the gun would smoosh the commander’s lower half with the breech recoil. Magazine fed tank commanders’are obviously the way forward

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

The issue is the exterior parts of the tank in that image are 1:1 with the table top model, and we know for a fact the tabletop models are mostly done in heroic proportions. So the guns themselves are definitely bigger than they should be as is all of the exterior parts of the tank.

If we account for that, an IRL model should stretch its proportions to match the weapons. Basically all of the flat boring parts of a model should stretch by 20-30%, which gives a lot more space inside the model for everything to operate.

That doesn't fix the recoil of the gun taking out the gunner, but ehh...

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

The descriptions of the inside of a baneblade in the baneblade novel don’t match that picture either. It could be they are different models or the fluff just isn’t concise.
   
Made in eu
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





United Kingdom

If I remember correctly, the baneblade novels mention there being three loaders. One guy in the main hull to get the shells onto the ammo lift, one to load the shells into the cannon, and the guy manning the demolisher cannon is a spare loader in case one of the other two dies or is injured.

The only mention of auto loaders from what I recall are for all of the other guns.
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I might also add that the art in question seems to show the tank being worked by what appear to be servitors or ad mech. As I understand it, the Ad-Mech has never run with Baneblades. I don't think this is official art.

   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







It’s allegedly by John R Mullaney released in 2013 as part of GWs Apocalypse release. I think it’s a legitimate GW release.

Also as tech relics, all baneblades are pretty much moving shrines for admech and should be expected to have adequate theological support. I am entirely unsurprised at their presence in the picture.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Tech priests are fully integrated within the Imperial Guard. Especially with the mechanized units.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

You can literally see an Ad Mech shrine built in to the rear of the plastic model.

Baneblades are typically produced only on forge worlds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Flinty wrote:
It’s allegedly by John R Mullaney released in 2013 as part of GWs Apocalypse release. I think it’s a legitimate GW release.

Also as tech relics, all baneblades are pretty much moving shrines for admech and should be expected to have adequate theological support. I am entirely unsurprised at their presence in the picture.

Yes it is from either the Apocalypse 1st edition rulebook or its expansion Apocalypse Reload. I think the latter.

Edit: I take that back, I think it is from Apocalypse 2nd edition.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/12/01 03:54:08


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: