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Ok so Abaddon's apparently got a master plan unfolding with Arks of Omen, Silent King has got his master plan and the Tyranids probably have a master plan to out master everything.

So what's the "good guys" plan besides to hold on? Well I expect the Imperium to do that. (It's what they do) But surely those super smart Eldar have got something cooked up to save the galaxy. They're supposed to be really smart right?

Seriously, if the Eldar's only plan is to keep resurrecting old Imperial Heroes, the Galaxy is in big trouble.

Any ideas?

Just spit balling here, but what if they could find some way to move the Big Warp rift and shift it right into the path of all the tyranid ships that haven't made it into the Milky Way. Lock Chaos and Nids in an eternal no win war? That could work right? Or am I hoping for too much here?





"Iz got a plan. We line up. Yell Waaagh, den krump them in the face. Den when we're done, we might yell Waagh one more time." Warboss Gutstompa 
   
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The Ynnari keep on their quest to awaken Ynnead. The Harlequins try to enact the secret plan of their god to somehow trick Slaanesh. The Craftworlders manipulate fate and events in order to spoil Chaos, Necron, and Tyranid plans. The Dark Eldar raid though it is likely they would also act to aid their Craftworld kin if it means thwarting Chaos. Generally the Eldar of all stripes act as protectors of the status quo.

The Imperium prays and hopes for the Emperor to save them. Guilliman seems to be toying with the idea of finding some way to resurrect the Emperor based on the ending of Godblight.

Given that 40K has to continue, this dynamic equilibrium is expected to continue with no faction able to meaningfully advance their plans.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/27 07:05:13


 
   
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I don't see Guilliman trying to resurrect the Emperor. I see the Lion returning, and apparently there's a lot of rumours leading up to this. Also, there's the Sanguinor becoming more of a spiritual host of Sanguinius himself. With these "three primarchs" essentially mirroring their Imperium Secundus of the past.

- With the Sanguinor becoming the Imperator Regis, because I highly doubt the Lion would appreciate Guilliman remaining as Imperial Regent.
- Guilliman as Lord Warden. Basically the shield and penny counter of the Imperium.
- The Lion as the Lord Protector. Basically the sword of the Imperium.

The Sanguinor would essentially be a shadow of Sanguinius. A partial soul, a ghost inhabiting a mortals form. Though who's image and story being greater than that of Celestine. The plot would largely follow Guilliman trying to return the Imperium to its past glory of the Great Crusade through reforms and the Lion taking over the Indomitus Crusade. El'Jonson putting out the fires across the Imperium and stabilising it for the wars to come.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/27 07:04:24


 
   
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Ghazghkull unites all Orks under his banner and crushes any opposition in the galaxy. What's that, you don't see Orks as one of the good guys? Yeah, well, you started this with putting the Imperium as one of them.

Tau probably plan to expand over the whole galaxy within the next couple of centuries or millenia. Opponents join or die; Tyranids and Orks get shot by automated weaponry, Chaos gets starved because of the small warp presence of the Tau. There will be Ethereals running around in giant battlesuits jumping from one planet to the next doing pew pew noises.
   
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From what I can tell the plans are

Tyranids - so far their plan has been to send in Hive Fleets and basically aim for key powerbases and take them out, whilst eating everything along the way. So far they've targeted things like Space Marine homeworlds. However they've also started building a huge planet which is projecting a massive shadow in the warp. If that's its only purpose then it suggests that they might build others as staging grounds to push Chaos back steadily since Chaos has been a huge problem for the Tyranids (lots of fighting and then no food at the end). However the planet might also have other functions.


Eldar Craftworld - kind of holding their own but don't seem to have any major plan save to survive and keep their craftworlds alive.

Dark Eldar - similar to Craftworld they seem to be content to maintain their status as raiders and don't seem intent on any major plans or galactic ambitions.

Yinnari - counterpoint to the other Eldar, the Yinnari seem bent on making some big waves on the Galactic map. That said they are still building their powerbase and forces and such. It's likely not helped that the model range is 1 boxed set of 3 models and the rest is part craftworld part dark eldar (which wasn't helped at all when they launched and craftworld was way behind in updates.)

Eldar Exodites - no plans and even more "maintain status" Always teased in lore by GW and who knows one day might be part of a big push to reclaim worlds and push the Eldar territories to grow .


Orks - just having lots of fun and waaaaarghs and all. One or two notable leaders are building huge Waarghs, but so far they tend to either beat everything locally and then get bored and break down or get thrashed at some stage and, again, breakdown.


Necrons - Silent King saw something in the black outside of the Galaxy related to the Tyranids that scared him enough to come all the way home and start Awakening and uniting the Necrons en-mass. So there's clearly intention here to build themselves up into a very powerful united army. Potentially hints at a huge Necron VS Tyranid storyline down the road



Imperials - Started a new Great Crusade with the Primaris as the Spearhead and then got hit with a Dark Crusade by Chaos which basically wound up with them both smashing each other apart, though the Imperium came off poorly having nearly lost access to half their Empire.


My impression is we've seen two massive Crusades, Primaris and then Chaos. Following that Necrons have made a big play to unite/form up and the stage is well set for Tyranids having a big event against the Galaxy next. Potentially causing huge damage and leaving crippled Necron and Tyranid forces - which would mean Imperium, Chaos, Necron and Tyranids all took a heavy beating. Which would leave the stage set for Tau, Eldar and perhaps even Votaan to have a big rise in their respective groups. As each of those three groups is smaller than the other major players and as they operate in different regions of space, there's potential for all three to have a rise in territories, threat level and power without impeding the other.

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Abbadon is the leader of the good guys, chaos will save the galaxy by defeating the virus of humanity.

But it might not be a nice place to live. But then it already isn’t. But if your alive in abbadons galaxy at least it’s cos your a survivor and not because your human cattle
   
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What if the galaxy doesn't want to be saved?

I always got the vibe that the inevitable DOOM was part of 40k's unique charm.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

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Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Dekskull wrote:


Just spit balling here, but what if they could find some way to move the Big Warp rift and shift it right into the path of all the tyranid ships that haven't made it into the Milky Way. Lock Chaos and Nids in an eternal no win war? That could work right? Or am I hoping for too much here?






Well eldar/humans can try various things but whole theme of 40k is it's inevitable fall. It's going to end up badly one way or another and struggle is just post poning the inevitable.

So no it wouldn't work.

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tneva82 wrote:
Well eldar/humans can try various things but whole theme of 40k is it's inevitable fall. It's going to end up badly one way or another and struggle is just post poning the inevitable.

So no it wouldn't work.


Agreed. I think some sort of deux ex machina happy ending would pretty much be the antithesis of 40ks vibe.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

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Oh yeah, I get it. There is no good ending here.

I'm just wondering if we are going to slide back to what the setting was pre great rift. I.E. Things are bad but it doesn't seem like the end is quite as nigh as the setting is currently presenting itself.

And yes, in my house, the orks are the good guys (actually its the grots but that's too much in the weeds for this thread).

But to me, it makes sense that Ghazuskull just wants to keep the good fights coming. Defeating everything would be just too boring. So in a way I think of the orks as very much a status quo race.

To me, Imperium, Eldar, and Orks are status quo. Chaos (seeking to saturate the galaxy with the warp), and Nids (plans to eat everything) are the existential threats to all sentient life, with the Necrons Nodal Matrix thing a distant third threat to all life.

Tau are the hopeful yet still irrelevant upstart. They're destined for greatness, (assuming they don't end up extinct along with everyone else) just probably not anytime soon.

"Iz got a plan. We line up. Yell Waaagh, den krump them in the face. Den when we're done, we might yell Waagh one more time." Warboss Gutstompa 
   
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Stubborn White Lion




Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
What if the galaxy doesn't want to be saved?

I always got the vibe that the inevitable DOOM was part of 40k's unique charm.


Galaxy just wants to get down to the Black Parade!
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





I’m pretty sure the only good outcome for the galaxy is for the Orks to become the dominant species.

1 they would evolve to become more socially sophisticated

2 they would be able to scrap amongst themselves leaving smaller populations of humans and eldar alone (mostly)

3 it would ruduce the power of the choas gods

4 gork and mork would become hella powerful and keep the warp in check
   
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Fixture of Dakka





 Dekskull wrote:

I'm just wondering if we are going to slide back to what the setting was pre great rift. I.E. Things are bad but it doesn't seem like the end is quite as nigh as the setting is currently presenting itself.

See, I don't really read the more recent developments as an increase in the danger levels. The end is roughly as nigh as it was before. To me, the difference that the newer fluff makes is that there's a sense of movement/progress/plot advancement. Previously, no given storyline really mattered because you could be pretty sure GW was never going to let character X actually achieve goal Y. I still don't see GW wrapping up the big plots any time soon, but there's more genuine tension as to whether or not a given sector we've actually heard of before will get wiped out or massively changed in some way. I don't expect Slaanesh to get killed off any time soon, but Ynnead and the ynnari give the eldar a sense that there's an endgame to play towards rather than just delaying their extinction a bit longer.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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All the various big plots by the factions are basically to maintain a sense of equilibrium. Before the return of Guilliman and the Rift, it was getting a bit ridiculous how they kept hyping up the impending end of everything, and everything was literally packed into the final year 999 M41. It left no room for individual personal stories like Tycho or Yarrick or anyone to move anywhere because there was no time in which to do anything, so GW reverted to moving the timeline forward like it had sort of done in the 1990's.

To counterbalance the seeming overwhelming Chaos incursions of Abaddon and the Rift, we get Guilliman returning to attempt to stabilize things. The Rift and daemonic incursions are given a hint of counterbalancing forces such as Hive Fleet Kronos, the Necrons' Pariah Nexus, and Ynnead.

The overall galactic situation of an embattled Imperium hanging on with its fingernails is still mostly the same even though the details shift, but it gives temporal space for GW and Black Library to tell smaller scale personal stories and have them move forward in time.
   
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Iracundus wrote:

The overall galactic situation of an embattled Imperium hanging on with its fingernails is still mostly the same even though the details shift, but it gives temporal space for GW and Black Library to tell smaller scale personal stories and have them move forward in time.


Or, as the Talking Heads put it: "Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was."

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
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Fixture of Dakka







Commissar von Toussaint wrote:What if the galaxy doesn't want to be saved?

I always got the vibe that the inevitable DOOM was part of 40k's unique charm.

Time to bring forth the DOOM Slayer, with all the requisite metal music?

Wyldhunt wrote:See, I don't really read the more recent developments as an increase in the danger levels. The end is roughly as nigh as it was before. To me, the difference that the newer fluff makes is that there's a sense of movement/progress/plot advancement. Previously, no given storyline really mattered because you could be pretty sure GW was never going to let character X actually achieve goal Y.


That would be because until late 7th, GW understood that 40k was a setting, not a bloody ongoing story.

They were even doing a bit better then about the game not orbiting about the same small cast of special characters - quite a few still showed up, but they certainly felt a bit more like they were restricted to specific theaters, rather than the same couple being in every conflict.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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From 2nd edition up to the Eye of Terror campaign in 3rd edition, 40K was an ongoing story advancing at about 1 year in the timeline to 1 real year. Individual stories such as Yarrick and Tycho progressed. However the larger faction story did not really change. Some details might shift, a world might fall or get retaken, but overall the situation in the galaxy was largely the same simply due to the sheer size and inertia of everything. However the ability for individual stories and conflicts to resolve allowed for player investment that although they might make little difference in the big picture, on the local scale they could still do something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/05 08:15:05


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Iracundus wrote:
From 2nd edition up to the Eye of Terror campaign in 3rd edition, 40K was an ongoing story advancing at about 1 year in the timeline to 1 real year. Individual stories such as Yarrick and Tycho progressed. However the larger faction story did not really change. Some details might shift, a world might fall or get retaken, but overall the situation in the galaxy was largely the same simply due to the sheer size and inertia of everything. However the ability for individual stories and conflicts to resolve allowed for player investment that although they might make little difference in the big picture, on the local scale they could still do something.


Exactly. 40k being a setting. In which battles could be held at any point within the 41st millennium and in any place was a massive draw for me.
   
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washington state USA

There is no saving the 40K galaxy. in the 41st millennium "there is only war"
Honestly i lost interest in the lore when 8th ed dropped. the entire cawl/resurrection of Guilliman, sudden mass amounts of advance tech, legion strength replacements of super-duper new space marines...none of it feel like 40K to me.

There is more than enough lore to keep me content between all the FW content (vraks, taros campaign etc..) and the old BL books-Gaunts ghost, Ciaphas Cain etc....





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Longtime Dakkanaut




Jarms48 wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
From 2nd edition up to the Eye of Terror campaign in 3rd edition, 40K was an ongoing story advancing at about 1 year in the timeline to 1 real year. Individual stories such as Yarrick and Tycho progressed. However the larger faction story did not really change. Some details might shift, a world might fall or get retaken, but overall the situation in the galaxy was largely the same simply due to the sheer size and inertia of everything. However the ability for individual stories and conflicts to resolve allowed for player investment that although they might make little difference in the big picture, on the local scale they could still do something.


Exactly. 40k being a setting. In which battles could be held at any point within the 41st millennium and in any place was a massive draw for me.


Except GW had written themselves into a corner with everything piled up into 999.M41. You literally had multiple major threats, campaigns, developments all within months if not weeks of each other with no possibility of resolution unless time passed into M42. GW tried to keep doing cliffhangers and looming doom, but you can only pile up so much stuff at the same time in the timeline and have that drag on for over a decade IRL.

Tycho needed time for his character development and death. In order to get such breathing space, GW needed to advance the timeline.

Again, the concept is dynamic equilibrium. The timeline can move forward, and things change, but at the same time the broad picture stays pretty much the same, with just a few hints of change or imminent change which GW can pursue later if they choose to expand the loose story thread.
   
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Iracundus wrote:


Except GW had written themselves into a corner with everything piled up into 999.M41. You literally had multiple major threats, campaigns, developments all within months if not weeks of each other with no possibility of resolution unless time passed into M42. GW tried to keep doing cliffhangers and looming doom, but you can only pile up so much stuff at the same time in the timeline and have that drag on for over a decade IRL.


And that goes to the point of there being no need to advance the timeline at all. Time is fluid, and the warp bends and breaks it, so it's possible for things to maintain that dynamic balance indefinately. Thus: GW could focus on a campaign from 500 years ago to see how it might have changed things, which is of course what historical gamers do.

I'm reminded of how the World of Darkness guys decided to do a countdown to 2000 in their game world, which was cool and got a lot of attention and than 2000 got here and they lost a lot of players because the existing setting went away and a lot of players left with it.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
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Basecoated Black





England

 Overread wrote:
From what I can tell the plans are

Tyranids - so far their plan has been to send in Hive Fleets and basically aim for key powerbases and take them out, whilst eating everything along the way. So far they've targeted things like Space Marine homeworlds. However they've also started building a huge planet which is projecting a massive shadow in the warp. If that's its only purpose then it suggests that they might build others as staging grounds to push Chaos back steadily since Chaos has been a huge problem for the Tyranids (lots of fighting and then no food at the end). However the planet might also have other functions..


I must have missed this development, what is the source for the Nids building a planet?

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Iracundus wrote:


Except GW had written themselves into a corner with everything piled up into 999.M41. You literally had multiple major threats, campaigns, developments all within months if not weeks of each other with no possibility of resolution unless time passed into M42. GW tried to keep doing cliffhangers and looming doom, but you can only pile up so much stuff at the same time in the timeline and have that drag on for over a decade IRL.


And that goes to the point of there being no need to advance the timeline at all. Time is fluid, and the warp bends and breaks it, so it's possible for things to maintain that dynamic balance indefinately. Thus: GW could focus on a campaign from 500 years ago to see how it might have changed things, which is of course what historical gamers do.

I'm reminded of how the World of Darkness guys decided to do a countdown to 2000 in their game world, which was cool and got a lot of attention and than 2000 got here and they lost a lot of players because the existing setting went away and a lot of players left with it.


The Tau first started fighting and making contact around the time of Behemoth, which was less than 500 years ago. Much further back and the Tau are primitive and could not be played in their Codex form. The Tyranids only really arrived as a galactic force and faction with Behemoth. The Necrons except as very isolated groups that also have to then be handwaved to go back to being inactive. Not all factions have the past to play with. For well over 10 years, people have kept raising that possibility, but it shows a blindness to the fact that not all factions have that as an option. All of these factions' main activities are actually compressed into a tiny 200 or so year chunk at the end of M41. Hence again, GW writing themselves into a corner. If you restrict to only past campaigns, you've just effectively written out the Tau as a faction entirely.

Nor do I buy the whole "isolated hive fleet"/"isolated Necron dynasty" angle before the official advent of these factions to the galactic stage, even though these snippets exist in the background. It creates the situation of "even if you win, you lose" which is dissatisfying as a player as it removes motivation and emotional investment in the faction. Their faction has to effectively go back to slumber/inactivity and not be remembered or discovered by the Imperium or the rest of the galaxy. Part of why worldwide campaigns like the Eye of Terror campaign took off was because of the perceived ability to shape the future of the timeline even if it was to maintain the dynamic equilibrium and just shifting details. That is why so many Ork players became invested in taking Mordax Prime and how this has now been canonized as Moredakka Prime. The players created something that was not pre-planned and railroaded by GW. Giving a sense of customer agency and increasing involvement is just good marketing.

Doing something like Hivefleet Ouroboros against the newly invented Podunk Sector in M36 does not get that investment as players know that whatever happens, whatever the fate of Podunk Sector, Ouroboros suffers a defeat near the Eye and vanishes until M41. The Imperium remains ignorant of the Tyranids. The past about Ouroboros has already been written by GW.


In summary: Moving forward with the timeline, but keeping the narrative themes the same, is good and creates space to tell stories. Locking oneself into purely historical refights does not, as the past for many factions is already restricted by GW and locked in. Sure, some historical fights and campaigns can be done but it should not be the only option allowed for, which is what would happen if the timeline were frozen.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2022/12/05 14:31:20


 
   
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Iracundus wrote:


In summary: Moving forward with the timeline, but keeping the narrative themes the same, is good and creates space to tell stories. Locking oneself into purely historical refights does not, as the past for many factions is already restricted by GW and locked in. Sure, some historical fights and campaigns can be done but it should not be the only option allowed for, which is what would happen if the timeline were frozen.


One of the issues you just hit on is the growth of factions, which undermines the central dynamic. When the Imperium was tasked with holding off Chaos, Orks and Tyranids (plus occasional Eldar skirmishes), it was easier to have that equilibrium. If all those factions coordinated their efforts, the Imperium would (according the fluff) unquestionably fall. Thankfully, the Imperium's enemies can't get along and so humanity muddles on.

When you keep adding in new threats like Necrons or Tau, now the strain becomes improbably large. Either the Imperium has to be bulked up to the point where one wonders why it doesn't just swat aside it's minor irritants or its defeat is assured, destroying the dramatic tension.

I'm not current on the fluff, but from what I've read in this thread, this would perhaps explain why "heroes of old" are returning - precisely because the immense power of the Imperium is being undermined by faction sprawl.

I'm not versed on the Tau, but one of the objections to them is that they should have been squashed as soon as they were detected because the Imperium would - at some point - have put together a battlefleet and invasion force and wiped them out. If the Imperium is too weak to do that, then the Tau (who AFAIK have no constraints on their growth as Chaos or the Eldar do) will inevitably bring about the end of the Imperium, and the game setting is effectively done.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/05 15:04:38


Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
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 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
 Overread wrote:
From what I can tell the plans are

Tyranids - so far their plan has been to send in Hive Fleets and basically aim for key powerbases and take them out, whilst eating everything along the way. So far they've targeted things like Space Marine homeworlds. However they've also started building a huge planet which is projecting a massive shadow in the warp. If that's its only purpose then it suggests that they might build others as staging grounds to push Chaos back steadily since Chaos has been a huge problem for the Tyranids (lots of fighting and then no food at the end). However the planet might also have other functions..


I must have missed this development, what is the source for the Nids building a planet?


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Iracundus wrote:
The Tau first started fighting and making contact around the time of Behemoth, which was less than 500 years ago. Much further back and the Tau are primitive and could not be played in their Codex form. The Tyranids only really arrived as a galactic force and faction with Behemoth. The Necrons except as very isolated groups that also have to then be handwaved to go back to being inactive. Not all factions have the past to play with. For well over 10 years, people have kept raising that possibility, but it shows a blindness to the fact that not all factions have that as an option. All of these factions' main activities are actually compressed into a tiny 200 or so year chunk at the end of M41. Hence again, GW writing themselves into a corner. If you restrict to only past campaigns, you've just effectively written out the Tau as a faction entirely.

...please don't threaten us with a good time like that, only to withdraw the offer.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Iracundus wrote:


In summary: Moving forward with the timeline, but keeping the narrative themes the same, is good and creates space to tell stories. Locking oneself into purely historical refights does not, as the past for many factions is already restricted by GW and locked in. Sure, some historical fights and campaigns can be done but it should not be the only option allowed for, which is what would happen if the timeline were frozen.


One of the issues you just hit on is the growth of factions, which undermines the central dynamic. When the Imperium was tasked with holding off Chaos, Orks and Tyranids (plus occasional Eldar skirmishes), it was easier to have that equilibrium. If all those factions coordinated their efforts, the Imperium would (according the fluff) unquestionably fall. Thankfully, the Imperium's enemies can't get along and so humanity muddles on.

When you keep adding in new threats like Necrons or Tau, now the strain becomes improbably large. Either the Imperium has to be bulked up to the point where one wonders why it doesn't just swat aside it's minor irritants or its defeat is assured, destroying the dramatic tension.

I'm not current on the fluff, but from what I've read in this thread, this would perhaps explain why "heroes of old" are returning - precisely because the immense power of the Imperium is being undermined by faction sprawl.

I'm not versed on the Tau, but one of the objections to them is that they should have been squashed as soon as they were detected because the Imperium would - at some point - have put together a battlefleet and invasion force and wiped them out. If the Imperium is too weak to do that, then the Tau (who AFAIK have no constraints on their growth as Chaos or the Eldar do) will inevitably bring about the end of the Imperium, and the game setting is effectively done.


The dramatic tension has always been a bit strained because despite supposedly the Imperium about to collapse, it seems in every GW novel the Imperial protagonist manages to pull through a victory "against the odds", to the point where it seems less the Imperium is collapsing than why hasn't it conquered everyone already?

Right now GW has sort of made a multiple way free for all in the Chalnath Expanse, and this could be way for them to explain why the Imperium survives. In the Chalnath Expanse, Chaos, Genestealer Cults, and Tau all clash against each other as well as the Imperium. The various threats start treading on each other's toes.

The Tau have survived and grown precisely because the Imperium is too busy elsewhere. We saw IRL during the Eye of Terror worlwide campaign this in action. There were Imperial players calling for a massive Imperial crusade to crush the Tau. However they were far outnumbered by those more interested in fighting Chaos around the Eye of Terror, which was the bigger more immediate threat, while the Tau Empire front was a less well defined sideshow. Players calling for focusing on the Tau were dismissed by other players as having wrong priorities, or even Chaos collaborators. That is why the Tau expanded in that campaign as the relatively few Imperial players that actually put their game results into the Tau front were insufficient to be more than a speed bump. In 4th edition, there was even a snippet in the Tau Codex about how the Tau took advantage of stripped Imperial forces destined for a distant faraway war (i.e. the Eye of Terror or the rippling effects of more central sectors drawing upon reinforcements from more outlying sectors), to attack vulnerable Imperial worlds. Since then, the background has had the Imperium make a few attempts to retake worlds, but even when successful these efforts are limited and peter out because there is no overarching plan and because resources are still being drawn away to feed other more important fronts closer to Terra and the Imperium's core. For the decision makers in the Imperium, the Tau are a small threat and far far away so they constantly get put into the "Later" pile. I do not think they are unique in that. There are probably numerous minor alien races or breakaway human regimes that survive because the Imperium is busy.

Even so, the Tau are a relatively minor threat in the grand scheme as despite their growth the Tau population is still small, and still on the Eastern Fringe, far away from the main centers of power. Their threat is more ideological rather than just purely military as they are getting Imperial worlds to revolt and join them through diplomacy, subversion, and ideology rather than purely conquest. We see from stories like Broken Sword that at least some of the humans joining the Tau get an objectively better material quality of life. The imperialist Tau may not be "good" white knights, but they are certainly keeping some of their promises, because it serves as good PR to sway more worlds.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/12/05 20:07:31


 
   
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Regarding the point about the Imperium being big, I direct you to this wonderful image:
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Iracundus wrote:
Their threat is more ideological rather than just purely military as they are getting Imperial worlds to revolt and join them through diplomacy, subversion, and ideology rather than purely conquest.


An ideological threat is greater than a military one because it is not bound by the contraints of time, distance or military resources. If your troops change sides, that's it, it's over.

You made repeated references to Imperial player campaigns being focused on Chaos and (I think, I'm not sure) extrapolated that as somehow indicating Chaos was a bigger danger. What if it was just who they wanted to play?

Again, Tau are an ancillary army, absent from the original fluff and not part of the core iconography of 40k. It makes sense that Imperial players would disdain those fights and want to duel with "older" foes.

But that's not the in-universe strategic calculus, which (according to the fluff) is that the Imperium will act swiftly to contain threats before they spread once they become aware of them, especially if they are a source of subversion.

Within the 40k universe, the High Lords would have immediately recognized that the Tau were small, and their very weakness would have justified their immediate elimination. It would take far less resources, and save trouble later. If they're remote, even better - just virus bomb the planets and be done with them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/05 20:28:51


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The High Lords are beset with requests for aid from thousands of worlds or sectors all over the galaxy. There are plenty of Genestealer cults, Chaos cults, or just plain schismatic Imperial cults that can be argued to be subversive as well. All of those places would argue their threat is important and needs to be dealt with first before it gets worse.

Again you act like those players from the long ago Eye of Terror campaign demanding the Imperium divert forces to squash the Tau threat in the bud. The problem is Chaos is beating down the door of the Imperium right now, Genestealer Cults are rising up and disrupting supply chains, the Tyranid hive fleets are picking off worlds and the Shadow is disrupting travel, etc... With all these closer and bigger threats, the High Lords have been robbing Peter to pay Paul. They have been stripping the periphery to shore up the more vital areas. It's why the original Damocles Crusade was called off, because the Tyranids were a far bigger immediate threat. Going after the Tau is like going after a 5 pt. objective while ceding 10 pt. objectives to the enemy.

That is why attempts to counterattack against the Tau have been very limited or spasmodic and their success or failure driven as much by politics as anything. The Tau are a longer term threat but the Imperium has no time to think long term. They are already in a treading water, whack a mole, short term thinking mindset because they have to deal with the more immediate threats to the Imperial heartland systems. Any High Lord or other bureaucrat suggesting sacrificing valuable worlds for the sake of far away frontier systems at the fringes of the Imperium would be fired or assassinated for incompetence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/05 22:39:11


 
   
 
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