When are variable characteristics rolled?

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**Hecaton**

Like the attacks on a Chaos Spawn or the damage on a meltagun. When do you roll these?

**princeyg**

When required to be used, for example in the case of the Chaos spawn, when the unit is selected to fight in the fight phase.

**Hecaton**

princeyg wrote:
When required to be used, for example in the case of the Chaos spawn, when the unit is selected to fight in the fight phase.

So what about multi-damage weapons vs. All is Dust? Do you roll before the armor roll?

**Valkyrie**

Hecaton wrote:
princeyg wrote:
When required to be used, for example in the case of the Chaos spawn, when the unit is selected to fight in the fight phase.

So what about multi-damage weapons vs. All is Dust? Do you roll before the armor roll?

Irrelevant. If you have to roll then it's not a Damage 1 weapon.

**Hecaton**

Valkyrie wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
princeyg wrote:
When required to be used, for example in the case of the Chaos spawn, when the unit is selected to fight in the fight phase.

So what about multi-damage weapons vs. All is Dust? Do you roll before the armor roll?

Irrelevant. If you have to roll then it's not a Damage 1 weapon.

Except using Unwavering Phalanx on D2 weapons makes All is Dust work.

The weapon has variable damage. The attack, to my understanding, must have fixed damage.

**JNAProductions**

Because D2-1=D1.

Dd3 or Dd6 -1 equals Dd3-1 or Dd6-1.

**DeathReaper**

Hecaton wrote:
Valkyrie wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
princeyg wrote:
When required to be used, for example in the case of the Chaos spawn, when the unit is selected to fight in the fight phase.

So what about multi-damage weapons vs. All is Dust? Do you roll before the armor roll?

Irrelevant. If you have to roll then it's not a Damage 1 weapon.

Except using Unwavering Phalanx on D2 weapons makes All is Dust work.

The weapon has variable damage. The attack, to my understanding, must have fixed damage.

No, it does not make All is Dust work.

D2-1 does not = D1...

A Damage 1 weapon has a listed Damage of 1, but D2-1 is not a Damage 1 weapon as its listed damage is not 1. D3-2 is not a Damage 1 weapon etc...

**p5freak**

DeathReaper wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Valkyrie wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
princeyg wrote:
When required to be used, for example in the case of the Chaos spawn, when the unit is selected to fight in the fight phase.

So what about multi-damage weapons vs. All is Dust? Do you roll before the armor roll?

Irrelevant. If you have to roll then it's not a Damage 1 weapon.

Except using Unwavering Phalanx on D2 weapons makes All is Dust work.

The weapon has variable damage. The attack, to my understanding, must have fixed damage.
No, it does not make All is Dust work.

D2-1 does not = D1...

A Damage 1 weapon has a listed Damage of 1, but D2-1 is not a Damage 1 weapon as its listed damage is not 1. D3-2 is not a Damage 1 weapon etc...

Except it does work. Once again you didnt check the rules. Just reading core rules isnt enough.

DEFENSIVE RULES THAT APPLY TO ATTACKS WITH SPECIFIC CHARACTERISTICS
Some rules only apply against attacks that have a specific characteristic. For example, ‘Each time an attack with an Armour Penetration characteristic of -1 is allocated to a model in this unit, that attack has an Armour Penetration characteristic of 0 instead.’ Each time you determine if such a rule is triggered, and so applies, always use the modified characteristics of that attack at the Allocate Attack step of the attack sequence. In the example above, that means that if an attack which originally has an Armour Penetration characteristic of 0, but then is modified by another rule before the Allocate Attack step to be -1, then at the Allocate Attack step it would then trigger the ability and be changed back to 0 instead.

All is Dust
Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 1 is allocated to a model in this unit, add 1 to any armour saving throw made against that attack. In addition, models in this unit do not suffer the penalty to hit rolls incurred for firing Heavy weapons in the same turn that their unit has moved.

Unwavering Phalanx
Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Shooting phase, when a THOUSAND SONS RUBRIC MARINES or THOUSAND SONS SCARAB OCCULT TERMINATORS unit from your army is selected as the target of an attack. Until the end of the phase, each time an attack is made against that unit, subtract 1 from the Damage characteristic of that attack (to a minimum of 1). If that unit contains 5 or fewer models, this Stratagem costs 1CP; otherwise it costs 3CP.

This rule is trigged when an attack is made, which is prior to the allocation step causing the -1 damage to occur before and be relevant for triggering All Is Dust.

**DeathReaper**

p5freak wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Valkyrie wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
princeyg wrote:
When required to be used, for example in the case of the Chaos spawn, when the unit is selected to fight in the fight phase.

So what about multi-damage weapons vs. All is Dust? Do you roll before the armor roll?

Irrelevant. If you have to roll then it's not a Damage 1 weapon.

Except using Unwavering Phalanx on D2 weapons makes All is Dust work.

The weapon has variable damage. The attack, to my understanding, must have fixed damage.
No, it does not make All is Dust work.

D2-1 does not = D1...

A Damage 1 weapon has a listed Damage of 1, but D2-1 is not a Damage 1 weapon as its listed damage is not 1. D3-2 is not a Damage 1 weapon etc...

Except it does work. Once again you didnt check the rules. Just reading core rules isnt enough.

Except it doesnt because D1 is not D2...

**p5freak**

DeathReaper wrote:
Except it doesnt because D1 is not D2...

What are you talking about ??? Unwavering phalanx reduces the damage characteristic of a D2 weapon to D1, triggering all is dust.

**DeathReaper**

p5freak wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Except it doesnt because D1 is not D2...

What are you talking about ??? Unwavering phalanx reduces the damage characteristic of a D2 weapon to D1, triggering all is dust.

That is not true though. Unwavering phalanx says "each time an attack is made against that unit, subtract 1 from the Damage characteristic of that attack"

That means only when an attack is made, the D2 damage with Unwavering phalanx is not Damage 1... It is Damage D2-1... which is not the same as Damage 1.

**p5freak**

DeathReaper wrote:
p5freak wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Except it doesnt because D1 is not D2...

What are you talking about ??? Unwavering phalanx reduces the damage characteristic of a D2 weapon to D1, triggering all is dust.

That is not true though. Unwavering phalanx says "each time an attack is made against that unit, subtract 1 from the Damage characteristic of that attack"

That means only when an attack is made, the D2 damage with Unwavering phalanx is not Damage 1... It is Damage D2-1... which is not the same as Damage 1.

That is not what unwavering phalanx is saying. It doesnt say change the damage characteristic to D2-1. It says to subtract 1 from the Damage characteristic of that attack, which changes D2 to D1.

The example in the rules of modifying characteristics is very clear. The characteristic is 9, not [4x2]+1.

Example: A Space Marine Sergeant (Strength characteristic 4) is making an attack with a power fist (Strength characteristic x2) while under the effects of a psychic power that increases his Strength characteristic by 1. The two modifiers (x2 and +1) are cumulative and applied concurrently. The attack is therefore resolved at Strength 9 ([4x2]+1=9).

**DeathReaper**

p5freak wrote:
That is not what unwavering phalanx is saying. It doesnt say change the damage characteristic to D2-1. It says to subtract 1 from the Damage characteristic of that attack, which changes D2 to D1.

That is 100% false.

Subtracting 1 from a D2 damage means D2-1...

It does not change D2 to D1

There is nothing that says what you are claiming.

**JohnnyHell**

Except maths. He’s on the money for once.

**TheBestBucketHead**

I've learned that two minus one doesn't equal 1, it equals 2-1?
2-1=2-1.

**Overread**

Well its more that "damage characteristic" is a specific property.

It can be a number, 1, 2, 3
or it can be a dice value - eg D2, D6 etc...

Even if a D2-1 is functionally going to cause 1 damage; its still not a "damage characteristic" of 1. It's a damage value of 1.

**DeathReaper**

TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I've learned that two minus one doesn't equal 1, it equals 2-1?
2-1=2-1.

But it is not 2 - 1.

It is a D2 -1 (Requires a roll for variable damage) vs a flat Damage of 1 (No dice involved).

**alextroy**

Let’s put this straight:

A Damage Characteristic 2 Weapon, like a Heavy Bolter, will trigger All Is Dust if the target unit has Unwavering Phalanx. A no longer very common Damage Characteristic D2 Weapon will not.

This is because the former becomes a Damage Characteristic 1 Weapon for the duration of the attack while the later is a Damage Characteristic D2-1 Weapon. The later is a variable characteristic attack with no fixed value until rolled during the Inflict Damage phase, even though we know the end result will be 1.

**JohnnyHell**

D2 doesn’t mean a variable stat. It means a Damage characteristic of 2. Apols if shorthand confused.

(There’s no such variable as D2 akin to D3 in 40K to my knowledge, just D3 and D6 - this tangent is a red herring.)

**p5freak**

Random D6 Damage short is DD6, fixed damage 2 is D2.

**VladimirHerzog**

yeah idk what the argument is lol

D2 - 1 means the damage is now 1 : all is dust triggers
DD3 - 1 means you substract 1 from whatever you roll : all is dust doesn't trigger (even if you roll a 2 which becomes 1 damage) because the damage is determined AFTER the save has been rolled

same with DD6 or D3+3 or D69+420