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Tsagualsa wrote:


Yeah, pretty much - there are what, 3.5 types of Gargant -normal, great, mega + 0.5 for the mekboy gargant - 2.5 Eldar titan - small, big, + 0.5 for the warlock -, 3 tyranid - hierodule, hierophant, dominatrix - and 2 chassis types for Tau Flyers? If we exclude the Mega-Gargant as Emperor Titan equivalent for the moment, that boils down to one scout class and one battle titan class set per xenos race, with a couple of knight-sized models thrown in for variety perhaps, and the great gargant as the only one approaching the size of a Warlord in mass. That's doable.

Not counting the Emperor Titan, weren't there only three Imperium Titan chassis in Epic? I only recall the Warhound, Reaver, and Warlord. I recall people here discussing things such as the Nightgaunt, but those still used a basic chassis (and were only available in AT - not Epic - to boot). It was only the hardpoint distribution that made the variants visually different from the basic titans.

do some of the anti-titan superheavys

Early on, there was speculation that these would be added to the new AT. After all, they'd fit in fine with the knights that have been in since launch. And a Shadowsword would be a real threat to anything on the table that didn't have void shields protecting it. No such luck, though.

Eumerin wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:


Yeah, pretty much - there are what, 3.5 types of Gargant -normal, great, mega + 0.5 for the mekboy gargant - 2.5 Eldar titan - small, big, + 0.5 for the warlock -, 3 tyranid - hierodule, hierophant, dominatrix - and 2 chassis types for Tau Flyers? If we exclude the Mega-Gargant as Emperor Titan equivalent for the moment, that boils down to one scout class and one battle titan class set per xenos race, with a couple of knight-sized models thrown in for variety perhaps, and the great gargant as the only one approaching the size of a Warlord in mass. That's doable.

Not counting the Emperor Titan, weren't there only three Imperium Titan chassis in Epic? I only recall the Warhound, Reaver, and Warlord. I recall people here discussing things such as the Nightgaunt, but those still used a basic chassis (and were only available in AT - not Epic - to boot). It was only the hardpoint distribution that made the variants visually different from the basic titans.

do some of the anti-titan superheavys

Early on, there was speculation that these would be added to the new AT. After all, they'd fit in fine with the knights that have been in since launch. And a Shadowsword would be a real threat to anything on the table that didn't have void shields protecting it. No such luck, though.

Yep, the classic titans were Warhound, Reaver and Warlord, everything else is a later addition. The Emperor Titan was a holdover from Adeptus Titanicus, then late in the days of Epic 40k they added the Warmonger, a Emperor-sized loadout variant with a rack of doomsday missiles and a superheavy multilaser as main armaments. Other than that, different chassis were mentioned from time to time, but never saw the light of day as an actual model that was for sale. Warbringers, Warmasters and so on are all current additions, but partially based on old sketches that Jes Goodwin did at various points in time.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
Rescale to cut out 3dmodelers. New models. Grand Master boxed set. Rules that require purchases of other boxed sets (AT / AI). And see what happens as a weather balloon. If it sells like crazy... more. If it doesn't, shelved.

You can't rescale to cut out the 3D print market Cause anyone with a 3d printer can rescale in seconds.


Plus we already know GW would use the same scale they use in AT and AN so that those models would cross over into Epic. So we already know the scale.

Well, we know the scale of titans, but the scale of titans is wildly inconsistent in its own way. If they were smart, they would actually scale everything but the titans down even further for a prospective Epic relaunch, to really hammer home how titanic the titans are, and to make it a much different game where transports actually have a strategic reason to exist, speed and maneuverability are much more important and tank-based artillery does not have practically unlimited range. Battlefields are much too small anyway, and opening up that design space would set epic apart from 40k quite nicely.

The scale of both AT and AI is 1/4th of the 40k scale. Extrapolate.

Predating Epic 40K there was Titan Legions which had a LOT more titans and knights in general, orks and Imperials both had quite expensive numbers with Imperials having a lot of knight class titans.

It's also where the mighty Imperator first reared its castle back onto the battlefields.



And whilst titan scales have varied a lot over the years and the artwork has varied even more (some show reavers standing over whole cities); the scales for AT and AN are pretty fixed. GW would be utter fools to choose any other scale, though of course practicalities of making models means that sometimes you sacrifice a bit of scale for a viable good model to work with. Which is pretty normal - heck most buildings we game with are woefully undersized. Few game systems aim for true "real scale" representation.

 Irbis wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
The Squat rumor was elsewhere first, but he said they'd be coming back with Men of Iron, which turned out to be pretty much true.

Except it was as wrong as pretty much everything V says. Real Men of Iron, as shown in comics, books, or BSF model/short story, are vastly more powerful and intelligent than glorified autonomous drones Ironkin are. They don't even have full AI and just pretend/ape emotions and social behaviours. Plus, ""predicting"" that new squats will have robots of some kind was suuuper difficult seeing old ones heavily relied on them.

So, yeah, there you have it, V does tons of blind guessing that turns out to be wrong in almost every case, and even in such cases where he stumbles on a near miss details are all wrong, but if you throw BS often enough and vague enough, eventually something will stick and then people will be all 'oh look he was cOrReCt!'

Here, look me do a Valrak: in 2023, GW will release white painted army! And oh, something on 28 mm bases! And space marine HQ! And chaos army book! And new edition (and if it turns out they won't thanks to all the delays, I will just quietly ignore it and will just do same prediction in 2024)! And plastic warhound titan (ditto)! And a new big PC game! And a new space marine codex! And a second votann wave! And 40K store promo limited model (super hard to guess seeing last one was AoS)! And female inquisitor! And then there is shocking rumor next Kill Team might be released soon! And oh, this tiny, insignificant detail in obscure game/comic/book means GW will soon do new character/unit/army (though they never do this but better say that every time there is something new to maybe chance on something in that odd 0.01% of cases)!

Wanna bet how soon I will be cOrReCt like V at least in 5 of these?

Did you get banned from his chat or something? He is obviously living rent free in your head.

 Overread wrote:
Predating Epic 40K there was Titan Legions which had a LOT more titans and knights in general, orks and Imperials both had quite expensive numbers with Imperials having a lot of knight class titans.

This was touched on up above, and there were still only the same basic chassis. As for knights, my recollection is that they were added in Epic. They were stated in fluff to be human copies of the Eldar knights used by the Exodites.

 Gnarlly wrote:
While I agree that GW would see a new Epic as an incentive to sell more (Epic-scale) minis, history has shown that Epic scale minis just don't sell that much in comparison to 40k scale minis. There will always be the GW whales that buy anything "new" from GW but I just don't see a new Epic doing any better than its previous iterations.

Also, it seems several people are under the illusion that all games using the new Apocalypse system must be massive all-day sessions with tables turned into congested "parking lots" of figures. The game actually plays quite well at the size of large standard 40k battles (roughly 2000 points of minis each side using 40k's points system) and such games can be played in less time than a 2000 point 40k match.

This matchup was roughly 2500 points each side in standard 40k terms of points on a 6'x4' table (not "niche" IMO as many players have armies of that size or more). A little cramped for an Ork horde but perfectly playable:

A picture like that shows me exactly why I'm getting back into Epic and not 40k It just looks like someone has taken a bunch of vehicles and infantry, set them up on the long edges of a football field, and are about to mash them together like some chaotic game of dodgeball.

Epic lets you assemble something that actually looks like it could be an army, have everything from gretchin to warlord titans on the table, play a game on a 4x4, 6x4 or 8x4 table and have space to move, realistic looking ranges, a chance for fast troops to exploit their speed because there's enough space on a table, and play a fun game that doesn't take multiple days to finish.

Eumerin wrote:
As for knights, my recollection is that they were added in Epic.

Knights were first introduced as part of the Titan Legions box set.

Model creep has definitely made 40k boards look worse, too cramped, like someone poured a bucket of their toys on the table and started bashing them together.

It actually works well for AOS because you're supposed to envision big blobs of melee soldiers smashing into one another, but 40k tables (especially at tournaments) look awful these days. That's before getting into terrible, cheap L shaped terrain with no holes in it because people will rule that 0.25" bullet hole someone poked in means their entire army can shoot through and hit your unit, as well as covering the board with ugly XXKILLGRIMDESIGNSXX objective markers that look like product placement at football games (and usually are if it's a battle report video).

 Arbitrator wrote:
Model creep has definitely made 40k boards look worse, too cramped, like someone poured a bucket of their toys on the table and started bashing them together.

I guess the scales kind of made sense back in the 90's, when 2nd edition 40k was mostly games of a few squads and a vehicle or two, WHFB was a game of a handful of blocks of infantry/cav with maybe 1 big impressive monster-type-thing, and Epic was a game hundreds of models but at a smaller scale so it kind of made sense.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A picture like that shows me exactly why I'm getting back into Epic and not 40k It just looks like someone has taken a bunch of vehicles and infantry, set them up on the long edges of a football field, and are about to mash them together like some chaotic game of dodgeball.

Epic lets you assemble something that actually looks like it could be an army, have everything from gretchin to warlord titans on the table, play a game on a 4x4, 6x4 or 8x4 table and have space to move, realistic looking ranges, a chance for fast troops to exploit their speed because there's enough space on a table, and play a fun game that doesn't take multiple days to finish.

That photo looks awesome. Sure, everyone started off lined up like a football game, but once everyone got moving there would be a lot of maneuvering. Does it replicate modern combined-arms combat? No. But it looks like WH40k. I bet that was a fun game once the Orks got stuck in.

I don't agree that Epic looked any better or was any more realistic. It was fun because you could mix massive war machines with infantry, but it didn't look much different from the WH40k game in the photo. And it was even more abstract than WH40k.

 Breotan wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
As for knights, my recollection is that they were added in Epic.

Knights were first introduced as part of the Titan Legions box set.

Imperial and Eldar Knights were introduced in Rogue Trader, with some very cool, very funky designs.





What are they teaching in schools these days?

 Snord wrote:

That photo looks awesome. Sure, everyone started off lined up like a football game, but once everyone got moving there would be a lot of maneuvering. Does it replicate modern combined-arms combat? No. But it looks like WH40k. I bet that was a fun game once the Orks got stuck in.

I don't agree that Epic looked any better or was any more realistic. It was fun because you could mix massive war machines with infantry, but it didn't look much different from the WH40k game in the photo. And it was even more abstract than WH40k.

You are, of course, entitled to your own wrong opinion

As to the amount of maneuvering you can do on that table with the shwon armies... well. I guess they can advance, yes. Like, once, as there's mostly vehicles.

But Epic armies did look quite different, I think, even with bigass titans. At the very least, the titans look properly massive ^^

But regular 40k wouldn't need to go that small, really. 15mm 40k looks amazing already, with nary a rule change (well, other than going back to old sized tables):

A return of Epic would be cool I mean we have the basis in Adeptus Titanicus: The Horus Heresy and to be honest at the moment 3D printing is bringing infantry units to the table and Falchions and Glaives..

As for official support beyond AT I am not so sure id love my Word Bearers in 15mm for sure it would be like having everything I cant afford from Forgeworld at my hands..

But GW unlikely so many pots and pans in the sink already ...

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
So do we have any substantial rumours or are we wishlisting and speculating again?

We have Valraks word for it to be ''definitely maybe coming'', followed up by a unrelated, yet timely reminder that all rumours are always lies up until they are proven true

In other words: sadly nothing, but were busy for four pages discussing rules and nostalgia.

I feel this is becoming a recurring ritual. Perhaps such Epic “rumours” topics shouldn’t be allowed in the rumours section until there’s something more substantial…

 Malika2 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
So do we have any substantial rumours or are we wishlisting and speculating again?

We have Valraks word for it to be ''definitely maybe coming'', followed up by a unrelated, yet timely reminder that all rumours are always lies up until they are proven true

In other words: sadly nothing, but were busy for four pages discussing rules and nostalgia.

I feel this is becoming a recurring ritual. Perhaps such Epic “rumours” topics shouldn’t be allowed in the rumours section until there’s something more substantial…

This really irritates me, it's a news & rumours forum, just because the rumour is small or of questionable validity it doesn't mean it doesn't belong. What should maybe happen is the thread topic is better managed to prune off pages of loosely related chatter.

It doesn't need to be a fact to have a place in a rumour board.

Yes I agree, as fun as it is talking about it!

Anyway chance to plug something! If anyone is interested in giving Epic Space Marine a go, perhaps you played it back in the day or have seen it for the first time and are intrigued, a couple of pals and I are running an Expo/Participation game in March next year in Firestorm Games, Cardiff (UK). It's completely free to take part and will be two massive armies, Titans/gargants, armoured & infantry companies, all duking it out on 12ft of table.

https://sumocatretro.wixsite.com/greatcrusadeepic

Dudeface wrote:
This really irritates me, it's a news & rumours forum, just because the rumour is small or of questionable validity it doesn't mean it doesn't belong. What should maybe happen is the thread topic is better managed to prune off pages of loosely related chatter.

It doesn't need to be a fact to have a place in a rumour board.

But it's also not much more meaningful to discuss than just any random topic.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
This really irritates me, it's a news & rumours forum, just because the rumour is small or of questionable validity it doesn't mean it doesn't belong. What should maybe happen is the thread topic is better managed to prune off pages of loosely related chatter.

It doesn't need to be a fact to have a place in a rumour board.

But it's also not much more meaningful to discuss than just any random topic.

Exactly that! I feel that we might just as well keep a general epic wishlisting and speculation topic in the Specialist Games section of this forum. Oh wait...we already have such a thread over there!

I think Epic is an inevitability.

Very quick history lesson.

First came Adeptus Titanicus. At the time of release, it was the boxed game (maybe GW’s first with plastic models?), and expansion sets of Titans.

To bring variety, the Warlord chassis was presented with set sub-types which offered different loadouts, speed, VSG and manouverability. Names such as Nightgaint, Goth etc.

Shortly after, Codex Titanicus arrived. This brought Warhounds and Reavers (effectively replacing the Warlord sun-types), Warlocks, Phantoms, Gargants and Great Gargants. Plus some infantry rules.

Space Marine 1st Ed then arrived, bringing us to a “proper” Epic Game.

And what we’re seeing here is…pretty much the same it would seem.

AT and Aeronautica use much the same scale, so to rebirth Epic we just need to see scaled infantry and tanks.

From a model design point of view, that’s cost efficient, because you don’t need and to some extent can’t have the usual pose variety we see from GW

The devil is in the gameplay though. We’ve had five incarnations, if we include the current AT. And all have aspects which worked, and aspects which didn’t. And all have their die hard fans. For me I wouldn’t be welcoming of a return to 3rd Epic which for me was a disappointing, anaemic affair with Bloody Awful Eldar Models. For others, my beloved 2nd Ed is anathema. Both and neither of us are right.

I could wax lyrical about the merits of 2nd Ed, but even I have to acknowledge the market and gaming in general has moved on. So much as I argue “just use that, for it is lovely and perfect” the sheer number of tokens and counters probably doesn’t have the same appeal to others. Plus, from a Supply and Demand point of view keeping the cardboard flowing is a headache GW probably wants to do without!

No you are right about 2nd Edition!

Definitely would be an interesting thing choosing which ruleset to go with, although I would say all of them (perhaps except for 1st edition) are far easier to learn than modern 40k or Necromunda, with its estimated 100+ hobbyist deaths per year from being buried under rulebook landslides!

 Snord wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A picture like that shows me exactly why I'm getting back into Epic and not 40k It just looks like someone has taken a bunch of vehicles and infantry, set them up on the long edges of a football field, and are about to mash them together like some chaotic game of dodgeball.

Epic lets you assemble something that actually looks like it could be an army, have everything from gretchin to warlord titans on the table, play a game on a 4x4, 6x4 or 8x4 table and have space to move, realistic looking ranges, a chance for fast troops to exploit their speed because there's enough space on a table, and play a fun game that doesn't take multiple days to finish.

That photo looks awesome. Sure, everyone started off lined up like a football game, but once everyone got moving there would be a lot of maneuvering. Does it replicate modern combined-arms combat? No. But it looks like WH40k. I bet that was a fun game once the Orks got stuck in.

I don't agree that Epic looked any better or was any more realistic. It was fun because you could mix massive war machines with infantry, but it didn't look much different from the WH40k game in the photo. And it was even more abstract than WH40k.

Lots of manouvering on board that's too small to allow it

40k has no meaningful manouvering thanks to small boards, high movement rates and ranges not being issue.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I could wax lyrical about the merits of 2nd Ed, but even I have to acknowledge the market and gaming in general has moved on. So much as I argue “just use that, for it is lovely and perfect” the sheer number of tokens and counters probably doesn’t have the same appeal to others. Plus, from a Supply and Demand point of view keeping the cardboard flowing is a headache GW probably wants to do without!

Buckets o' tokens still works in FFG/AMG games, so I wouldn't say that's necessarily an exclusionary factor...

True, but for GW it’s an outsourcing job, and we’ve seen them have trouble keeping such things in stock.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
True, but for GW it’s an outsourcing job, and we’ve seen them have trouble keeping such things in stock.

With the amount of cardboard they push nowadays it has to be close to the point that re-integrating some sort of printing service is long-term viable again. Packaging in handling is a whole other problem though.

I'd love to see what modern manufacturing could do with Epic. I'm very impressed with what fan 3d sculptors and modellers are doing already with similar scales. As for modern 40k, I think with the model count and variety of model sizes that the game is shoehorning in, 10-15mm would work better for the post 5e apocalypsified 40k.

I don't think something like Space Marine would need too many tokens? Order tokens (no different from activation tokens you have in Warcry or Necromunda), and unit selection could be an app where you simply construct your force from companies and support cards. The same with Titan hit charts, if they took that route, could be app-supported (although I realise that would need some investment, which they probably wouldn't bother with if it was a 'one and done').

tneva82 wrote:

 Snord wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A picture like that shows me exactly why I'm getting back into Epic and not 40k It just looks like someone has taken a bunch of vehicles and infantry, set them up on the long edges of a football field, and are about to mash them together like some chaotic game of dodgeball.

Epic lets you assemble something that actually looks like it could be an army, have everything from gretchin to warlord titans on the table, play a game on a 4x4, 6x4 or 8x4 table and have space to move, realistic looking ranges, a chance for fast troops to exploit their speed because there's enough space on a table, and play a fun game that doesn't take multiple days to finish.

That photo looks awesome. Sure, everyone started off lined up like a football game, but once everyone got moving there would be a lot of maneuvering. Does it replicate modern combined-arms combat? No. But it looks like WH40k. I bet that was a fun game once the Orks got stuck in.

I don't agree that Epic looked any better or was any more realistic. It was fun because you could mix massive war machines with infantry, but it didn't look much different from the WH40k game in the photo. And it was even more abstract than WH40k.

Lots of manouvering on board that's too small to allow it

40k has no meaningful manouvering thanks to small boards, high movement rates and ranges not being issue.

Its definitely something that has changed over time. 1st and 2nd edition had a lot of maneuver (just check out battle reports from that time), there was a lot of flanking, fast attack, getting around your opponents. I would say that started to change from 3rd edition when the game became necessarily more abstract as model count increased, and by the time we got to 6th edition and onwards and super heavies, big tank groups started appearing on tabletops, it gradually move towards what you saw in that photo above. I would never denigrate what other people play and enjoy, each to his own, but we're getting into statement of fact saying there is the same possibility for employment of movement tactics in 40k as there are in Epic (any version) and that is simply not the case. If you think that is so, then it just means you haven't read the Epic rulebook - just to take Armageddon as an example you have rules for crossfire, for firing into assault before the melee begins (ideas taken directly from historical wargaming and an attempt to make a 'realistic' portrayal of warfare). The scale belies a really neat, and not overly complex, game mechanics and is a strong reason why many think its the best rule system that GW have ever written.

 warboss wrote:
I'd love to see what modern manufacturing could do with Epic. I'm very impressed with what fan 3d sculptors and modellers are doing already with similar scales. As for modern 40k, I think with the model count and variety of model sizes that the game is shoehorning in, 10-15mm would work better for the post 5e apocalypsified 40k.

I think we can expect infantry and tanks in scale with AT and Aeronautica.

Plus, one of the appeals of Epic is you have huge armies which don’t take a huge amount of time to paint or assemble.

The visual spectacle comes from the scale and the Titans. Also the terrain I suppose.

Maneuvering died when 5th edition made area terrain transparent and the concepts of line of sight and fire lanes ceased to exist in any meaningful capacity.

Another 2nd ed fan here. I'd instabuy 2nd ed Space Marine again any day of the week (although must admit the 3rd edition box minis look even better).

If we get four pages of lyrical waxing in short order at the slightest rumour of an Epic comeback, GW probably knows they need to throw us a bone sooner or later. Could even be a "one and done" type of affair at first, just to gauge reactions. One bigger box is all it would take to get the ball running. They already sell terrain suitable for the scale. I wouldn't mind keeping it HH themed, as HH is already targeted more towards us older gents. Let the yoof have their 40K parking lots if thats their thing