Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

2 sprues? Optimistic. 1 sprue with a couple Rhinos, a Land Raider some infantry is more likely. Cram 8 or so said sprues in a box with dice, counters and rulebooks. Sounds like a low hanging fruit for GW

I have the old rules from Space Marine and the original Adeptus Titanicus and its supplement. Never went beyond that, unfortunately, before the line ended.

Which versions of the rules for Epic are the ones most people play with, and are they the ones that were available for free on GW's site before they dropped all the old game rules? I've downloaded the latter, but never really looked into them, as I didn't have anyone to play with.

 Stormonu wrote:
I have the old rules from Space Marine and the original Adeptus Titanicus and its supplement. Never went beyond that, unfortunately, before the line ended.

Which versions of the rules for Epic are the ones most people play with, and are they the ones that were available for free on GW's site before they dropped all the old game rules? I've downloaded the latter, but never really looked into them, as I didn't have anyone to play with.

There's a lot of variation, I asked a few months back on the Specialist Games subforum, and you'll find people like different editions for different reasons.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/806694.page

Basically, I think Epic Armageddon and fan versions of Epic Armageddon are probably the most popular, but 2nd edition (early 90's version) also has some followers and is the basis of the NetEpic fan rules.

I'm partial to 3rd edition (the one that came out in 1997), it was the one I played as a kid, but many people don't like it because it simplifies the rules a lot... that's the entire reason I do like it though because I think it plays well as a game and allows you to play anything from small games to very large games quite quickly, and the entire rulebook can easily be read in a single sitting which helps with explaining to other people how the game plays (though there are optional rules and rules clarifications scattered through the battles book and magazines which came out in the late 90's that can now be found online). The fan rules for 3rd edition are probably the least fleshed out though, so you can't easily just download a copy of the fan rules (you can find the original rulebooks without too much effort though).

That said, even though I like 3rd edition, I'm building armies that could easily be adapted to the other versions of the game, and am basing my models in a way that would be legal in other versions of the rules. The different editions aren't too fussy in terms of models, so you can jump from edition to edition, the only thing that I think you need to watch out for is 3rd edition has the most flexible army selection options, so by building an army specifically for 3rd edition you may not be able to reform it into a legal army for other editions without having to add some units.

If you can find an existing local community, they could potentially be playing any version or any fan adaption of that version.

I love Epic re-release rumor threads.

I am hopeful that there will be a new version of Epic (defined as any sort of game that includes GW-produced AT-scaled infantry and tanks) in the near future.

GW has already future-proofed the AT and AI model lines for that possibility, given the existence of weapon models in those games that don't actually have any function in those games. GW has also shown that it is willing to continue to support low-volume games like Necromunda with extensive product lines.

I don't necessarily think Valrak is wrong on this one, but it does seem like a situation where he is playing the odds. With Ash Wastes releases still trickling out slowly, Gorka Morka is unlikely to be next in the cue (as it would likely use similar rules to the Ash Wastes vehicle scenarios). Mordheim will likely have to wait until the Warhammer: The Old World game is released (assuming they don't make a similar game set in the AoS realms). That really just leaves Battlefleet Gothic or Epic. I figure that, eventually, Valrak has a 50% chance of being right. Or 100% chance half of the time, since I'm pretty sure he has predicted the return of BFG as well, at some point in the past.

Anyway, if Epic does return, I hope it uses a similar rules set as Epic: Armageddon, and not 2nd Ed Epic or Epic:40k. I find the latter is too abstract (and I hate using the firepower chart) and I don't have time to play the former. Epic: Armageddon was a nice mix of speed and strategy, even if I never felt like my army had enough personnel or vehicles to really be considered 'epic' in the colloquial sense.

And if it is set in the HH-era instead of the 40k one, I guess I'll just be playing a knights list (black shield). That will at least allow me to feel authentically epic-old-school.

Hopefully they might tease something for a new years preview.

Am torn between thinking this needs to go to Dakka Discussions, as the 'rumour' seems to be based off of nothing more than logical observation, and wanting it to stay here as it means 'Epic' stays near the top of the busiest part of the forum

Anyway another opportunity to link to the great Epic projects thread we have running down in the specialist games sub forum. No need to wait like poor little Timmy stood outside of Scrooge's window for GW to throw you one over-priced sprue, you can play Epic right now!
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791159.page

Given what the fan communities and 3D sculptors have done for Epic since Specialist Games closed shop, I strongly suspect GW getting involved with releasing the game would only be a detriment at this point.

semajnollissor wrote:
Anyway, if Epic does return, I hope it uses a similar rules set as Epic: Armageddon, and not 2nd Ed Epic or Epic:40k. I find the latter is too abstract (and I hate using the firepower chart) and I don't have time to play the former.

I had a quick think about this, I think it'd be pretty easy to house rule the firepower chart away if you don't like it.

In Epic 40k, you only need 1 dice roll to kill an enemy with a shooting attack... the purpose of the firepower table is kind of to allow that.

So you could replace the firepower chart just by making it "to hit" and "to wound" instead of just "to hit". You'd just need a table where infantry marching, mobile war engine in open, or immobile war engine in cover is 3+ to hit, infantry in open or mobile war engine in cover is 4+ to hit, infantry in cover is 5+ to hit, and immobile war engine in open is an auto-hit.

If you don't like tables at all, you could just make it 4+ to hit and have modifiers (+1 to hit marching, +1 to hit war engines, -1 to hit units in cover, auto hit immobile war engine in open).

Then what is currently called "to hit" in Epic 40k would be renamed "to wound" and you just follow the rules as written.

It'd only slightly change the statistics by making cover a hair moire effective and marching units a hair less vulnerable, but it'd be pretty close and wouldn't really change how the game plays, just an extra dice roll instead of looking up the firepower chart.

 Pacific wrote:
Am torn between thinking this needs to go to Dakka Discussions, as the 'rumour' seems to be based off of nothing more than logical observation, and wanting it to stay here as it means 'Epic' stays near the top of the busiest part of the forum

Anyway another opportunity to link to the great Epic projects thread we have running down in the specialist games sub forum. No need to wait like poor little Timmy stood outside of Scrooge's window for GW to throw you one over-priced sprue, you can play Epic right now!
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791159.page

THATS IT! AFTER A WHOLE YEAR OF WAITING FOR NOTHING WE NOW HAVE TO ENDURE THESE "OLD SPICE MAN" INSULTS!!!!

Last year we were Titan princeps commanding entire maniples! High Kings leading our Houses towards their glorious demise like Klingons on a pub crawl!!!

Not even 40K could match the might and power of the Warmaster heavy battle titan! NOW WE'RE THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE ENTIRE TABLETOP GAMING COMMUNITY!!!!




Crablezworth! Sherrypie! All of you! SOUND THE WARHORNS! WE'RE GOING TO NOTTINGHAM AND WILL REMIND GAMES WORKSHOP OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES!!!!!

GW have moved on from Epic, their models if anything get bigger not smaller, so doubtful GW would revist this part of their history... which is for the best, as it means the community that has grown up around the 6mm scale 40K has developed the game and models. GW would only increase it to 8mm, and ruin the rules.

Oh and Epic 40,000 is the best set of rules GW ever made for Epic.

Well gw stuck with 6mm scale with at...

tneva82 wrote:
Well gw stuck with 6mm scale with at...

No, that is 8mm scale.

 stonehorse wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well gw stuck with 6mm scale with at...

No, that is 8mm scale.

The difference between 6mm 'heroic' scale and 8mm 'true' scale is probably negligible enough that you would not immediately notice it.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well gw stuck with 6mm scale with at...

No, that is 8mm scale.

The difference between 6mm 'heroic' scale and 8mm 'true' scale is probably negligible enough that you would not immediately notice it.

We've had this discussion many many times. AT and AI are 1/4 of 40k scale. Old Epic was ballpark 1/5 of 40k scale, but with massive variation (some infantry models were as small as 5mm, some models were approaching 8mm, the aircraft were probably closer to 3mm scale, etc).

A Space Marine is currently 32mm to the eyes, so if that's your reference point, then 1/4 of 32mm = 8mm. But 40k scale itself is inconsistent, so naturally if 40k is inconsistent scale then a game based off 1/4 of that is also going to be inconsistent.

But we won't know unless GW actually release some infantry, the closest thing we have at the moment are the Grot gunners on the Bommers, and they're about 5mm, but they're sitting down and no one uses Grots as their reference unit of measurement

 stonehorse wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well gw stuck with 6mm scale with at...

No, that is 8mm scale.

We've done this song and dance multiple times already. Short answer is "no, it's not", while the long answer could be "if marines are 8mm, the scale itself it's 6mm, and the real scale is 1/4th of 40k, not any particular mm count" but it's actually "Noooooooooooooooo".

There are people who think AT/AI is 6mm scale and then there are people who can divide by four.

Normal humans in 40k are about 32mm. 32/4=8. Not hard.

Yes, yes, all very interesting.

So, will it be "Epic" reborn as 30K/40K, or just a new revised edition of Adeptus Titanicus that will incorporate a few troops and tanks?

SamusDrake wrote:
Yes, yes, all very interesting.

So, will it be "Epic" reborn as 30K/40K, or just a new revised edition of Adeptus Titanicus that will incorporate a few troops and tanks?

Nobody knows anything but the vaguest rumours about it atm, so that question is up in the air with all others one might have. I guess if we're really, rellay lucky we may get a single picture or some other kind of tease on the 31st/1st of January as a treat if it is true that we'll see Epic in 2023, but i doubt it.

I feel that you can get away with human models anywhere between 5.5mm and around 7.5mm. Once you go beyond 7.5mm, you’re entering genetically modified power armoured super soldier territory

 stonehorse wrote:
Oh and Epic 40,000 is the best set of rules GW ever made for Epic.

That's a strange way of saying "Epic: Armageddon", mate.

 Dysartes wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Oh and Epic 40,000 is the best set of rules GW ever made for Epic.

That's a strange way of saying "Epic: Armageddon", mate.

It's really not, no. E:A is... ok, but it's just 40k writ larger, and it really plays very much like that. E:40k's whole focus is on playing large conflicts in a reasonable amount of time. It gives a totally different vibe, in play. But of course it's less "flavorful".

There is stuff to like in both, sure... but it is what it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
There are people who think AT/AI is 6mm scale and then there are people who can divide by four.

Normal humans in 40k are about 32mm. 32/4=8. Not hard.

Then you have the designer's own words, which says both that it's 17$th of 40k and that a marine would be 8mm tall



But I agree that the only meaningful scale is 1/4th of 40k, here. Infantry scale is pretty flexible at that size, too.

Lets not get too hung up on scale when you consider that GW does not make "truescale games."

Tanks and buildings are often woefully undersized for what they are; meanwhile infantry and such can be oversized. And that's in the regular 40K game and before you consider the heroic proportions that oversize certain details which makes scale even more wonky.

 Dysartes wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Oh and Epic 40,000 is the best set of rules GW ever made for Epic.

That's a strange way of saying "Epic: Armageddon", mate.

Haha. OK if that what you have to do to convince yourself.

I mean Epic Armageddon was an incomplete game, no Chaos, and no Tyranids.

Oh and the game designers have said that Epic 40,000 is the best version of Epic they have made.

But, you keep telling yourself that the inferior game is the better one

No love for Apocalypse 2.0? It was just 40K scale Epic rules after all.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
No love for Apocalypse 2.0? It was just 40K scale Epic rules after all.

I liked it, but there was zero support for it.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
No love for Apocalypse 2.0? It was just 40K scale Epic rules after all.

I liked it, but there was zero support for it.

I'm sure the global pandemic arriving ~6 months after release didn't help to inspire support for a game reliant on getting multiple players together at once.

It's a shame it never got a reprint though. We had an end of year Apoc game at my local club just this week and it went great.

 stonehorse wrote:
Oh and the game designers have said that Epic 40,000 is the best version of Epic they have made.

I think I've heard a couple of GW designers from back then say Epic 40k was the best game GW put out at the time.

Andy Chambers has said he thought Epic was one of the best games he's worked on, but also in a recent interview, Andy Chambers also lamented that Epic 40k killed the game because it was too big of a change for a single edition which meant too many fans didn't like it and because the people in charge at GW were looking for an excuse to kill Epic, that was kind of it for Epic.

Kind of like if GW stopped supporting AoS after so many people complained about it on release, except GW was dedicated to AoS so kept pushing it.

So the lesson Andy learned from Epic 40k was that it's important to cater to the fans, even if you write the dogs bollocks of rules it needs to cater to the fans.

But what I've gathered from rules writers, they don't dwell on games as much as the fans do. The good game writers will write a game, play it for a while, then write another game and play that. It's the fans that want a single good ruleset that doesn't change for a long time and they can play over and over and over again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
No love for Apocalypse 2.0? It was just 40K scale Epic rules after all.

I liked it, but there was zero support for it.

I'm sure the global pandemic arriving ~6 months after release didn't help to inspire support for a game reliant on getting multiple players together at once.

It's a shame it never got a reprint though. We had an end of year Apoc game at my local club just this week and it went great.

Does it play well at 6mm scale? Better than actual Epic rules?

I've never really had a desire to play Apocalypse at 40k scale, one of the big benefits of Epic scale is that the armies can start a distance apart that makes more sense without having to occupy a basketball court sized gaming table Then the other big benefit is I can paint 100 Epic scale models in a weekend, whereas even speed painting I can only paint half a dozen or so models at 40k scale in a weekend.

SamusDrake wrote:
So, will it be "Epic" reborn as 30K/40K, or just a new revised edition of Adeptus Titanicus that will incorporate a few troops and tanks?

AT18 is quite a few years old now, and a new edition one of these days wouldn't be all that surprising.

They did do their Loyalist and Traitor summary books not so long ago...

I think for the different Epic rulesets they each provide something different. I like both Epic Space Marine/Titan Legions and Armageddon, but they give a surprisingly varied play experience. For SM, I love the feeling of operational (strategic) oversight, of having to plan ahead with orders against what you think your opponent will do and then revealing the orders, and trying to move in on objectives. It's amazing how the game can swing one way and then the other with a late gambit, which I think is missing from a lot of modern GW games, where you often know who will win after the first or second turn. And armies like Orks and Chaos are just so much fun if you play those factions, really characterful. But, I also really enjoy Armageddon. My one criticism of it is that it can feel a bit dry (one of my playing friends described it as a range measuring exercise, which I don't entirely disagree with) but it is so tactical in the way that you have to plan assaults and cross-fires. It's razor-tight too, and has had so many years now of playtesting by the community for balance that its a really great tournament set. In this way it is probably the most balanced and I think the easiest to use (less open to abuse by dirty lists) and good for pick-up games.

Sadly I still haven't played Epic 40,000 as it came along while I was on a hobby hiatus, but would love to give it a go someday.

I wonder if GW could dip one or two toes into epic first.

IMHO they've pushed the Titan Civil War as far as they can. OK there's room for the Imperiator Titan walking castle/cathedral, yeah they could do something smaller than a Warhound, but now they're just adding thinner slices of the same roast.

Xenos I believe have been conclusively ruled out.

But adding fortifications and guns would bring something new in.

Then adding superheavies from Shadowswords up to Leviathans and Colossi would keep in the theme but add a new type of vehicle. Aircraft would be the one addition and are ready to go.