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Do you feel better for writing out your thesis? Do those deathwing terminators now get cyclones for free? Assault Cannons for free? How about the rest of their gear?

Which factions in marines are coming out on top? Is it deathwing centric dark angels?

Then we could swing past the place where I pointed out this is going to operate more like a points drop than cornucopia of free upgrades

If I raid my bits box for a chainfist to replace a powerfist and a cyclone launcher, then put them on my (hypothetical) deathwing terminators, have I leveraged free stuff to make a stronger unit?

Are they winning because of the free stuff - no, are they going to be incrementally better because I chose to change an arm/hand and add something to one of the minis? Yes.

This is what I was talking about. Go lay down outside for a bit.

There seems to be more Ravenwing than Deathwing. Black Knights got 5 pts cheaper. Corvus hammers were free before this update for some reason, when clearly they shouldn't be. Making the power sword and power maul free also actually increased the internal balance because corvus hammers are still seemingly the best, now you're just not paying for the privilege of downgrading your weapon.

It'd also be a lot easier to compare points if GW listed changes...

Dudeface wrote:


If I raid my bits box for a chainfist to replace a powerfist and a cyclone launcher, then put them on my (hypothetical) deathwing terminators, have I leveraged free stuff to make a stronger unit?

You mean the chain fist that was the same price as a power fist before the change, and is still the same price as a power fist? You know that "thesis" you made fun even even told you this much. I mentioned that Terminator Fists were equal swaps before and they're equal swaps now. Of course, I'd like to know why you didn't raid your bits box for a 5pt Chainfist instead of the 5 point Power Fist in the first place - or why it makes a difference that a 0 poing chain fist can now replace a 0 point power fist - when the all the options cost the same, and you have to pick one of the options its not free wargear its a points drop. And no, you probably haven't leveraged the stuff - free or otherwise - to make a stronger unit. For example one of the reasons those Fists were and still are a flat swap is that you're trading Flat D2 for D3D and a bonus vs Vehicles. Beyond that the difference between the AC, the Plasma Cannon (for the DW specific squad), and the Cyclone are situational and depend on the rest of the unit and the army - especially in the DW Specific squad where you could be swapping Storm Bolters for 2LC or TH/SS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:
There seems to be more Ravenwing than Deathwing. Black Knights got 5 pts cheaper. Corvus hammers were free before this update for some reason, when clearly they shouldn't be. Making the power sword and power maul free also actually increased the internal balance because corvus hammers are still seemingly the best, now you're just not paying for the privilege of downgrading your weapon.

It'd also be a lot easier to compare points if GW listed changes...

The maul was odd man out, but the hammer and the sword were already somewhat even trades for relatively easily save-able D2 vs Hard to save D1. The maul though just had no place. At that point you were far better off - outside niche scenarios - to Plasma Talon whatever you were attacking - plus this swap is Sgt only meaning you'd give the Hammers to everyone else, and the power sword on the Sgt for a "hidden Power fist" effect only with a power sword. But their primary weapon is still the talon. Advance, Assault Plasma, with Strat if necessary - if you're leaning into if you'll also be adding Sammael, Command characters, and the speeder LT giving you another 2-3 Talons, a cannon, and some dakka from a bunch of 3+ 4++ T5 platforms.

I'd really like it if Space Marines actually were an "Elite" faction, and had to pay costs appropriate to an "Elite" faction.

Breton, you know what I missed that a chainfist was the same as a powerfist previously. You then immediately (well, a smalle ssay later) give a better example of trading it to a thunderhammer. So maybe less of a pedantic bunghole and discuss in the spirit of the topic?

I've been white Knight branded to oblivion multiple times for sticking up for Marines, despite often not having a horse in the race. I'm now wondering if the detractors were nearer the money than I thought.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'd really like it if Space Marines actually were an "Elite" faction, and had to pay costs appropriate to an "Elite" faction.

GW wants everyone to be elite, Orks are elite, bugs are elite, Guardsmen are elite.

 vict0988 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'd really like it if Space Marines actually were an "Elite" faction, and had to pay costs appropriate to an "Elite" faction.

GW wants everyone to be elite, Orks are elite, bugs are elite, Guardsmen are elite.

What is the measure of elite?

Because it seems to me, as long as Marines as the most common faction, their baseline will never be elite. Since they're the norm.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'd really like it if Space Marines actually were an "Elite" faction, and had to pay costs appropriate to an "Elite" faction.

GW wants everyone to be elite, Orks are elite, bugs are elite, Guardsmen are elite.

What is the measure of elite?

Because it seems to me, as long as Marines as the most common faction, their baseline will never be elite. Since they're the norm.

It's a very interesting question, to me it's the number of models in the army, compared to most armies marines should have fewer boots on the ground, they should be better enough compared to others basic troops etc they are comparatively few in number.

I'd define it as the opposite of horde, whereas you're defining it as the opposite of common.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'd really like it if Space Marines actually were an "Elite" faction, and had to pay costs appropriate to an "Elite" faction.

GW wants everyone to be elite, Orks are elite, bugs are elite, Guardsmen are elite.

What is the measure of elite?

Because it seems to me, as long as Marines as the most common faction, their baseline will never be elite. Since they're the norm.

T5, guns that autowound on hit rolls of 6, S5 AP-1 guns. Ward-esque is the only thing you can call this garbage.

Dudeface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'd really like it if Space Marines actually were an "Elite" faction, and had to pay costs appropriate to an "Elite" faction.

GW wants everyone to be elite, Orks are elite, bugs are elite, Guardsmen are elite.

What is the measure of elite?

Because it seems to me, as long as Marines as the most common faction, their baseline will never be elite. Since they're the norm.

It's a very interesting question, to me it's the number of models in the army, compared to most armies marines should have fewer boots on the ground, they should be better enough compared to others basic troops etc they are comparatively few in number.

I'd define it as the opposite of horde, whereas you're defining it as the opposite of common.

That's a fair definition, methinks. As not the one I'd use by default, but a reasonable one to use.

But are Marines elite by that measure? In some cases, for sure-against an Infantry Guard or Nid horde, yes.
In other cases? Not so much-a Guard tankline will have less models than a Marine force, most often, or a Nid Monster Mash.

They feel more elite when people actually field hordes, but real hordes seem to be rare these days, in which case Marines seem "average"ish.

If you ask me, the proper fix for Marines is to Make Hordes Great Again. I'm dead serious.

 Insectum7 wrote:
They feel more elite when people actually field hordes, but real hordes seem to be rare these days, in which case Marines seem "average"ish.

If you ask me, the proper fix for Marines is to Make Hordes Great Again. I'm dead serious.

I don't think many will argue against that.

Dudeface wrote:
Breton, you know what I missed that a chainfist was the same as a powerfist previously. You then immediately (well, a smalle ssay later) give a better example of trading it to a thunderhammer. So maybe less of a pedantic bunghole and discuss in the spirit of the topic?

You mean like you did skipping over where I pointed it out - still used it as an example - and called it a thesis after obviously skipping it rather than answer the question of which of those units was the spammable freebie haul? I went over every unit checking its old points, its new points, where the drops where and how effective they were - like the fists - and you snarked rather than discuss it "in the spirit of the topic". You want a discussion but you didn't even look the stuff up, just going with some doom and gloom - and innacurate - evaluation of the MFM.

I've been white Knight branded to oblivion multiple times for sticking up for Marines, despite often not having a horse in the race.

It shows.

I'm now wondering if the detractors were nearer the money than I thought.

Go ahead, go back and look at the list. Most of the drops are on the bodies, some are on baked in wargear - i.e. Like the fists you're paying for one or the other, but they're both the same price. I'm assuming GW did it that way because they had just fiddled with the Fists etc. trying to get them offsetting-ly good but left them outside the body cost in case they had to correct because they missed the mark - such that they could increase or drop one fist if they weren't actually equal-ish. Your best bets are probably the Aggressors and the Razorbacks, but even they aren't doing what whoever told you. People who were taking Aggressors are going to be taking the same Aggressors they were before. Salamanders will take the flamers, (nearly) everyone else will take the boltstorm even at the old price, and the drop didn't change anything. A bunch of TLHB/TLAC/TLLC Razorbacks have the potential to do it - 1 per Infantry unit, free turret weapon. But you've still got to be able to drive them around, and non-flying vehicles - like fortifications - have issues with the current terrain density and rules. But what do you see?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'd really like it if Space Marines actually were an "Elite" faction, and had to pay costs appropriate to an "Elite" faction.

That's Custodes. I'd like it if they were closer to that, but not too much closer. 2,000 points should put about 50 bodies on the table. Other factions should flux from there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What is the measure of elite?

Because it seems to me, as long as Marines as the most common faction, their baseline will never be elite. Since they're the norm.

The measure of Elite is whatever someone - in this case GW - says it is. At that point higher priced armies are super-elite, lower priced armies are horde and/or normal with a few exceptions proving the rule. Elite doesn't mean anything on its own here. It's just a variable/descriptor X to classify Army Y.

That’s not how words work.

Which is more elite?
Custodian Guard, or Servitors?

By pretty much any actually used definition, the Custodes.
By GW, Servitors.

 JNAProductions wrote:
By pretty much any actually used definition, the Custodes.
By GW, Servitors.

I've not been paying attention to the screaming match between Breton and dudeface, so can you clarify this comment JNA?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'd really like it if Space Marines actually were an "Elite" faction, and had to pay costs appropriate to an "Elite" faction.

As mentioned ad nauseam, Space Marines will never be elite when they are also the most common faction in the game. You can say they "feel elite" by making them expensive and giving them cool rules and what not, but when they and their ilk make up 40-60% of the player base then everyone is going to build into that mindset which makes them feel squishy which in turn makes them not feel "Elite".

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
They feel more elite when people actually field hordes, but real hordes seem to be rare these days, in which case Marines seem "average"ish.

If you ask me, the proper fix for Marines is to Make Hordes Great Again. I'm dead serious.

I don't think many will argue against that.

Hordes might make a comeback, but GW was pretty adamant in their rules writing that they did not want hordes to play in 9th. Blast Weapons, Morale Rules, coherency rules, Close Combat Rules. Horde factions losing their horde buffs, losing their buffs in general which were geared towards large units. I mean hell, we went from Orkz fielding 120-150 boyz in 8th to fielding 10 at most in 9th.

I'd love for Horde builds to become viable again, but their biggest detractors were the very vocal minority who wanted to be able to focus fire space Marines to death and didn't want to have to think about taking anti horde weapons when they really needed to pack in another melta or plasma gun instead.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
By pretty much any actually used definition, the Custodes.
By GW, Servitors.

I've not been paying attention to the screaming match between Breton and dudeface, so can you clarify this comment JNA?

Custodian Guard are troops.
Servitors are elites.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Custodian Guard are troops.
Servitors are elites.

Right, ok. But isn't that a matter of perspective? In a Custodes force, Custodes are the bread and butter - the troops - even if they are super-elite by another army's standards. In other armies, Servitors might be seen as the elite (not that I'd ever classify bog-standard combat servitors as 'elite', but that's a different discussion) compared to their bread and butter troops.

Would Servitors be elites in a Custodes army (I don't think Custodes can take Servitors, right?).

Also sometimes units are Elites because GW can't into rules and has to artificially place units into a (theoretically) more limited slot so people don't just take lots of them, Scouts being the prime example of that (and, I imagine, this is why Servitors are 'Elites' in some armies).

In a general sense, which is more elite?

Not within the army-or, if within the army, if they were both in the same one.

Edit: Words are not defined from on high.
They are defined by common usage

I feel like Custodian Anything should be the definition of Elite.

But here is a more apt and fair comparrison.

What is more "Elite":
A Custodes Telemon

Or

A IH Relic Leviathan Dread?

By the Fluff - Custodes.

On the table, 9/10 times, the IH Dredd takes the prize.

This is what I mean by Elite. What is the point of paying a premium for an Elite force, that can be blasted off the table by a lesser model/unit. Right now, a squad of IG Infantry is more deadly to a Custodian Guard, than a Primaris Intercessor.

"Elite" has been ruined by power creep. Nothing is elite anymore.

I'm pretty sure the infantry squad is more expensive, both in points and in real money, than an Intercessor.

 JNAProductions wrote:
That’s not how words work.

Which is more elite?
Custodian Guard, or Servitors?

By pretty much any actually used definition, the Custodes.
By GW, Servitors.

Sure it is. You've even unconciously made that point yourself in the Guard Infantry vs Guard Tanks post. What's elite? A late WWII Communist draftee, or a Navy Seal? Navy Seal, right. What's elite a Navy Seal or a Space Marine Terminator? What's elite, Matrix style nutrient gruel made from your dead podmates, or a Big Mac? What's elite, a Big Mac or a Ribeye dinner with all the trimmings? Elite is just a relational description on a sliding scale.

Okay. And what is the baseline?
Would it be the most common army in the game?

I think what JNA is getting at is that "marines aren't elite because they are common, and that is because eliteness is relative to some abstract, subjective judgement".

So by proving eliteness is subjective and typically related to commonness, you would have to either admit that Marines will never been elite while they are common, or explain how "objective eliteness" works .... which I think you just shot in the foot with the Big Mac comment.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. And what is the baseline?
Would it be the most common army in the game?

There is no set baseline. Swiss pikemen were pretty elite in the 1400's. They would not be so today.


And Rarity doesn't mean Elite. A Feral world that hasn't seen the light of the Emperor of Man is pretty rare. Having barely mastered fire does not make them elite. Nor is the most common army in the game also the most common army in the setting. The setting doesn't (generally) change based on how many people play any given faction.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. And what is the baseline?
Would it be the most common army in the game?

There is no set baseline. Swiss pikemen were pretty elite in the 1400's. They would not be so today.


And Rarity doesn't mean Elite. A Feral world that hasn't seen the light of the Emperor of Man is pretty rare. Having barely mastered fire does not make them elite. Nor is the most common army in the game also the most common army in the setting. The setting doesn't (generally) change based on how many people play any given faction.

I'm not talking in the setting-I'm talking in the real world.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think what JNA is getting at is that "marines aren't elite because they are common, and that is because eliteness is relative to some abstract, subjective judgement".

So by proving eliteness is subjective and typically related to commonness, you would have to either admit that Marines will never been elite while they are common, or explain how "objective eliteness" works .... which I think you just shot in the foot with the Big Mac comment.

I think he's conflating elite on the tabletop with elite in the setting. Elite on the tabletop is theoretically impossible. Elite in the setting is fluff.

Everybody gets 2,000 points. Play along and save your laughs for later here - if GW does their thing right, 2,000 points of X is roughly equivalent to 2,000 points of Y. In other words (In this theory) 500 points of Ork Boys are equivalent to 500 points of Intercessors. The Ork Boys may have 50 bases, while the Intercessors may have 25, but that's just another case of "6 of one, half dozen of the other". At a certain point they're all just abstracts. Is a Storm Speeder Whatchamacallit more elite than a couple Centurion Devs? Not really, nor is the inverse necessarily true. The Stormspeeder has half the bases, but they're both going to perform about the same in that abstract.

Of course, GW has to do their thing well. Now people may laugh.

Breton wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think what JNA is getting at is that "marines aren't elite because they are common, and that is because eliteness is relative to some abstract, subjective judgement".

So by proving eliteness is subjective and typically related to commonness, you would have to either admit that Marines will never been elite while they are common, or explain how "objective eliteness" works .... which I think you just shot in the foot with the Big Mac comment.

I think he's conflating elite on the tabletop with elite in the setting. Elite on the tabletop is theoretically impossible. Elite in the setting is fluff.

Everybody gets 2,000 points. Play along and save your laughs for later here - if GW does their thing right, 2,000 points of X is roughly equivalent to 2,000 points of Y. In other words (In this theory) 500 points of Ork Boys are equivalent to 500 points of Intercessors. The Ork Boys may have 50 bases, while the Intercessors may have 25, but that's just another case of "6 of one, half dozen of the other". At a certain point they're all just abstracts. Is a Storm Speeder Whatchamacallit more elite than a couple Centurion Devs? Not really, nor is the inverse necessarily true. The Stormspeeder has half the bases, but they're both going to perform about the same in that abstract.

Of course, GW has to do their thing well. Now people may laugh.

Not at all.

If you get 50 Ork Boys for 500 points, even if they perform as well as 500 points of 25 Intercessors, they are less elite.
The Orks are more numerous, and since they're performing roughly as well, would therefore have an inferior statline.

What would you define "elite" to mean, Breton?

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm not talking in the setting-I'm talking in the real world.

Then nobody is elite, nor should anyone be. The tabletop does not pit 1v1 Grot vs Knight. The Tabletop pits X Points of Y versus X points of Z. The model(s) are just (theoretically) graphical abstracts of points buckets given stats and rules. There could be only 5 Imperial Knights on the entire Ork World populated by billions of Orks and Grots, their buggies and so on totally a value of quadrillions of points, but you're still only going to see (usually) 2,000 points of Orks across the table from them in a game.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm not talking in the setting-I'm talking in the real world.

Then nobody is elite, nor should anyone be. The tabletop does not pit 1v1 Grot vs Knight. The Tabletop pits X Points of Y versus X points of Z. The model(s) are just (theoretically) graphical abstracts of points buckets given stats and rules. There could be only 5 Imperial Knights on the entire Ork World populated by billions of Orks and Grots, their buggies and so on totally a value of quadrillions of points, but you're still only going to see (usually) 2,000 points of Orks across the table from them in a game.

Define "Elite" for me, please. In the context of 40k.