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Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Clearly not since it was pointed out the Deep Strike rule written for 10th makes the clarification already. Got anything else to add to defend?

"While a Bodyguard unit contains a Leader, it is known as an Attached unit and, with the exception of rules that are triggered when units are destroyed (pg 12), it is treated as a single unit for all rules purposes. "

So as Gabriel would be attached it's treated as a single unit for all rules purposes, a unit of terminators has the deepstrike rule. As a result Gabriel, as a part of a unit of terminators, gains the deepstrike rule. That might be a situation for a FAQ, apart from the fact they avoided the conflict by not allowing it in the first place.

What makes you think I want to "defend" anything, you said something incorrect and you're being corrected. Does that mean you're "attacking" the rules? If so who pays you do that all the time?

Okay, so does whatever unit Garbiel Seth gets attached to suddenly get Whirlwind of Gore?

No, but after talking it through before your response (which you missed), I was wrong as the deepstrike rules don't transfer to the model embedded in the unit. The same will be true of scout, stealth etc.

So you'd agree it's not very hard to write rules for unit vs model?

Deathwatch Kill Teams. Gunna go out on a limb and say we can no longer attach terminators to these units.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Ok, fair. Now let's address Ahriman. When will you ever put him in Rubrics if he can join Scarabs?

did i miss part of the argument? Because ahriman in a squad of flamer rubrics seems mighty strong IMO

So, Rubrics get bolters without RF, which means Scarabs will get the same. That gives them 4 shots at 24" to 3.5 autohits at 12" ( then throw on soulreaper and HMR ). Tack on that Scarabs are actually decent in melee and I don't see a good reason to put him in with the relatively soft Rubrics who will most certainly need a rhino to not be immediately targeted.

Huh? What makes you think Scarabs won't have Inferno Combi-Bolters that are 2 Attacks with Rapid Fire 2 and 24" Range, just like Blightlord Terminators have Plague Combi-Bolters and Space Marine Terminators have Storm Bolters?

 alextroy wrote:
Huh? What makes you think Scarabs won't have Inferno Combi-Bolters that are 2 Attacks with Rapid Fire 2 and 24" Range, just like Blightlord Terminators have Plague Combi-Bolters and Space Marine Terminators have Storm Bolters?

Perhaps you're right.

Watched the Death guard vs demons 10th edition and deathguard lost he gave up at turn 4 as he had no way of winning.

Like I thought from the preview death guard look real bad.

Final score was 88-95.

How lethal was the game?

Was every roll punctuated with a re-roll of some description?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How lethal was the game?

Was every roll punctuated with a re-roll of some description?

Game ended with the DG still having a full block of 11 terminators, a few plague marines, and I believe a Rhino. The Daemon player had his three Greater Daemons left, along with some plague bearers. The DG player probably would have done better if his Terminators hadn't spent the first 3 turns doing nothing besides holding an objective, or if he hadn't yeeted Mortarion into the 3 greaters plus belakor on turn 2. Not a lot of rerolls, but again, Mortarion spent the entire game dead, so...

So the issue wasn't that Death Guard was bad, it was that Death Guard was played badly.

 alextroy wrote:
So the issue wasn't that Death Guard was bad, it was that Death Guard was played badly.

Potentially. Yeeting Morty and having no plan for a Bloodthirster popping in, but really hard to tell without reviewing their missions. Daemons barely moved until T3.

On rerolls...seemed scant.

Oh also lots of impactful misplays by standing on objectives so I imagine much more of those.

Wait... did anyone else notice that the Thunderhawk was left off the list of Heresy Legends?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Wait... did anyone else notice that the Thunderhawk was left off the list of Heresy Legends?

Unlike most of the listed units, thunderhawks are extremely common in the 40k Era. Things like the Astraeus are not legendary either. Would love to see plastic Thunderhawk or Warhound Titan, but I expect the only large units for a while will be various Cerastus Knights and something for Nids.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Unlike most of the listed units, thunderhawks are extremely common in the 40k Era.

Unlike all those pesky Daemon Engines that were created well after the Horus Heresy, designed for 40k well before Horus Heresy was even a FW-only game, and yet are now classified as "Legendary Horus Heresy" units.

 alextroy wrote:
So the issue wasn't that Death Guard was bad, it was that Death Guard was played badly.

No. Go watch the stream. Read the data sheets. They are bad. Not trying to be rude, everyone said wait and see and so while I said they are bad I did wait and see. They are bad. Entropy cannon s10 they basically have nothing that can deal with tank.

Plague Marines ability is a +1 to battleahock tests when in range of objectives, army ability is sticky objectives.
Terminators are 4in move, they went off screen for like minute with no explination then claimed the blighords made a 9 or ten inch charge. It was the only time they went off screen during the stream and it felt really staged. Even if it wasent it dosent matter.

The foul blightspawn is decent but he can only join plague marines. Which will get shot off the table quickly. Lord of virulence was good.

Mortarion is not nearly tanky enough he can hide as he dosent have titanic if he is in the open he will not servive a single shooting faze for most opponents. So he can charge somthing do mediocre damage. (on stream he killed 2 flamers in Melle) then die.

Blightlord do very little ranged damage and hit anything but infintry with pillow fists. Seriously dea h guard will not be able to handle tanks basically at all.

Their flamer equivlants(plague sprayers and such) are good. Overwatch strategem with the sprayers did a good chunk of damage to be'lakor.

Disgusting resilient is a 2cp strategem that only works in the fight faze.

These guys are just going to get shoot off the table while trying to waddle into Melle and if they make it into Melee with anything that is not infantry they will bounce off.

Don't take my word for it watchthe stream or just wait and see.

Finally army look slightly bigger than now but not by much.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Deathwatch Kill Teams. Gunna go out on a limb and say we can no longer attach terminators to these units.

Not sure what you mean, but the picture they posted had a regular Terminator and an assault Terminator so I'm guessing we still can.

Boosykes wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
So the issue wasn't that Death Guard was bad, it was that Death Guard was played badly.

No. Go watch the stream. Read the data sheets. They are bad. Not trying to be rude, everyone said wait and see and so while I said they are bad I did wait and see. They are bad. Entropy cannon s10 they basically have nothing that can deal with tank.

Plague Marines ability is a +1 to battleahock tests when in range of objectives, army ability is sticky objectives.
Terminators are 4in move, they went off screen for like minute with no explination then claimed the blighords made a 9 or ten inch charge. It was the only time they went off screen during the stream and it felt really staged. Even if it wasent it dosent matter.

The foul blightspawn is decent but he can only join plague marines. Which will get shot off the table quickly. Lord of virulence was good.

Mortarion is not nearly tanky enough he can hide as he dosent have titanic if he is in the open he will not servive a single shooting faze for most opponents. So he can charge somthing do mediocre damage. (on stream he killed 2 flamers in Melle) then die.

Blightlord do very little ranged damage and hit anything but infintry with pillow fists. Seriously dea h guard will not be able to handle tanks basically at all.

Their flamer equivlants(plague sprayers and such) are good. Overwatch strategem with the sprayers did a good chunk of damage to be'lakor.

Disgusting resilient is a 2cp strategem that only works in the fight faze.

These guys are just going to get shoot off the table while trying to waddle into Melle and if they make it into Melee with anything that is not infantry they will bounce off.

Don't take my word for it watchthe stream or just wait and see.

Finally army look slightly bigger than now but not by much.

basically every weapon of note has lethal hits/wounds. I doubt they'll have too much difficulty with armor specifically.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Wait... did anyone else notice that the Thunderhawk was left off the list of Heresy Legends?

Plastic Thunderhawk confirmed

After looking at the tzeentch flamer datasheet im confused. Shouldnt psychic weapons be stronger than their counterparts since the psychic keyword is a massive nerf on its own? Str 4 -1 1 is just a joke so these guys have to be really cheap or otherwise absolutly useless even with their deep strike.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Unlike most of the listed units, thunderhawks are extremely common in the 40k Era.

Unlike all those pesky Daemon Engines that were created well after the Horus Heresy, designed for 40k well before Horus Heresy was even a FW-only game, and yet are now classified as "Legendary Horus Heresy" units.

The oldest daemonengine in that list is by lore is the decimator, encountered around m35 , alas.
GW needed to Cut Space marine datasheets therefore removing all clear exemples of csm daemonengines is the corect move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Biasn wrote:
After looking at the tzeentch flamer datasheet im confused. Shouldnt psychic weapons be stronger than their counterparts since the psychic keyword is a massive nerf on its own? Str 4 -1 1 is just a joke so these guys have to be really cheap or otherwise absolutly useless even with their deep strike.

Pendulum swing, was a recent hotness needed to be nerfed into the ground.

 Breotan wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Deathwatch Kill Teams. Gunna go out on a limb and say we can no longer attach terminators to these units.

Not sure what you mean, but the picture they posted had a regular Terminator and an assault Terminator so I'm guessing we still can.

DeathWATCH

Again I have to ask: In the new Deathwing Command Squad rules, a Cyclone cannot upgrade his Storm Bolter/Fist to anything else. Am I right in saying that this is a change, as he can right now?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Pendulum swing, was a recent hotness needed to be nerfed into the ground.

Yeah, Flamers are the current target for being ground into the dirt because they were powerful at one stage in a different edition of the game.

The Lord of Change profile is really dull for one of the strongest psychers ingame. No extra utility psychic power? What?

Boosykes wrote:
Plague Marines ability is a +1 to battleahock tests when in range of objectives, army ability is sticky objectives.

Alternate take: the detachment rule (not army rule) is intended for support units like drones to snatch easy objectives, the plague marine rule is intended to help steal heavily contested objectives with your all melee loadout. The actual army rule reduces enemy toughness depending on range, which helps with anti tank a little.

And speaking of anti tank, there’s a slim chance the lascannon predator may be decent…

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Unlike most of the listed units, thunderhawks are extremely common in the 40k Era.

Unlike all those pesky Daemon Engines that were created well after the Horus Heresy, designed for 40k well before Horus Heresy was even a FW-only game, and yet are now classified as "Legendary Horus Heresy" units.

Didn't mention daemon engines. I agree they should have stayed, or better have some converted to plastic, but if you want to compare the two, one is a certerpiece model for the centerpiece faction, usable by 6 subfactions and Chaos. The other is a collection of variants of Chaos models or subfactions thereof.

I want to use my Black Templar Kratos and Sicaran, but my opinions on what should stay is irreverent to the fact that the Thunderhawk was not going to be stripped out if Titans and Knights were staying.

Biasn wrote:
After looking at the tzeentch flamer datasheet im confused. Shouldnt psychic weapons be stronger than their counterparts since the psychic keyword is a massive nerf on its own? Str 4 -1 1 is just a joke so these guys have to be really cheap or otherwise absolutly useless even with their deep strike.

They are likely 30+ points each.

Fast, resilient, deep strike, fall back and shoot, torrent weapon, ignore cover.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if these models become staples of demon lists.

People really underestimate torrent weapons in this edition.

Spoletta wrote:

Biasn wrote:
After looking at the tzeentch flamer datasheet im confused. Shouldnt psychic weapons be stronger than their counterparts since the psychic keyword is a massive nerf on its own? Str 4 -1 1 is just a joke so these guys have to be really cheap or otherwise absolutly useless even with their deep strike.

They are likely 30+ points each.

Fast, resilient, deep strike, fall back and shoot, torrent weapon, ignore cover.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if these models become staples of demon lists.

People really underestimate torrent weapons in this edition.

3.5 S4 AP-1 D1 hits at 12" isn't exactly gamebreaking.
Compare to an Intercessor-two of them put out just shy of the same damage from 24" away, provided they can stand still.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Biasn wrote:
After looking at the tzeentch flamer datasheet im confused. Shouldnt psychic weapons be stronger than their counterparts since the psychic keyword is a massive nerf on its own? Str 4 -1 1 is just a joke so these guys have to be really cheap or otherwise absolutly useless even with their deep strike.

They are likely 30+ points each.

Fast, resilient, deep strike, fall back and shoot, torrent weapon, ignore cover.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if these models become staples of demon lists.

People really underestimate torrent weapons in this edition.

3.5 S4 AP-1 D1 hits at 12" isn't exactly gamebreaking.
Compare to an Intercessor-two of them put out just shy of the same damage from 24" away, provided they can stand still.

i haven't seen the stream, they gave tzeentch flamers their auto-hits back? seeing as flamers of Tzeentch with auto-hits were so OP in 9th they had to take it away, im mildly suprised they gave it them back. those things were brutal, espically on overwatch, effectively getting a free 2nd round of shooting.

They were also S5 AP-2 D1 with d6+3 shots in 9th.
10th, they're down to S4 AP-1 D1 and d6 shots.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How lethal was the game?

Was every roll punctuated with a re-roll of some description?

Short recap.

Turn 1 pretty much no casualties on both sides.

Turn 2 the demons lost a unit of flamers (+char) and a half plus some screamers, took heavy damage on Belakor. Death guard lost a plague marine squad with char and Mortarion.

Turn 3 Demons lose Belakor, Khorne hounds and the last flamers. Death guard lose a PBC, a Rhino and another plague marine squad.

Death guard starts turn 4 with more than half his army (2 PBC, 1 rhino, 10 termi with char, 1 Plague marine squad with char), so quite a lot of stuff on the table, but the game is sealed at this point. The 10 termie, PBC and plague marines are too far from the objectives, while the last PBC is isolated and surrounded. To add insult to injury he draws Engage on All fronts as secondary. The termies managed to land a long charge into the center on the keeper of secrets, but when they say that stuff is harder to kill, they mean it. The result of 10 termie on a KoS was I believe 10 damage on the KoS and 1 termie killed. Key takeaway is that KoS kept the objective because only 4 termies are on the objective, and the greater demons are OC5.

During turn 4 death guard loses the isolated PBC and a Rhino on, so it starts turn 5 with what in old points would be around ~800 points, the demons more than 1000. It was a very full on assault game, they didn't play defensively, so indeed we are looking at an edition more based around objective controls than on removing your opponent from the table.

Also, despite what people say about death guard, the game was quite close, and in the end the demons won by capitalizing on the position mistakes of the DG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
They were also S5 AP-2 D1 with d6+3 shots in 9th.
10th, they're down to S4 AP-1 D1 and d6 shots.

In an edition where you overwatch every turn the second profile with auto hit is a lot better than the first one.

xerxeskingofking wrote:


i haven't seen the stream, they gave tzeentch flamers their auto-hits back? seeing as flamers of Tzeentch with auto-hits were so OP in 9th they had to take it away, im mildly suprised they gave it them back. those things were brutal, espically on overwatch, effectively getting a free 2nd round of shooting.

Less s, less hits, less ap. Likeiy lost access to +1 to wound spell.

It's "bit" different do you autohit 6d6+18 s6 +1 to wound -2 that 6d6 s5 -1





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

In an edition where you overwatch every turn the second profile with auto hit is a lot better than the first one.

That assumes you have cp all the time. 1cp is lot more expensive in 10e than 9e.

And even if is damage output of shoot and overwatch is less than 1salvo of old. At higher cp cost.