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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Prayer seals are marks of literally sanctified paper by a chaplain of an order, who can literally turn the tide of battle by shouting words.

You'd be silly to say prayer marks don't have power. That's like saying when a chaplain makes an invocation and recites the litany of fury, his brothers around him don't ACTUALLY fight harder, they just do it by accident.

Chaplain thing could be an overdrive buried deep in a Marine’s psychoindoctrination. Think trigger words and phrases which send them temporarily loopy and extra hard. Useful in battlefield conditions, but not desirable in day to day operations. And that by no means needs the Chaplain to know that’s what’s actually happening, either.

Tell that to the Reclusiarch of the Black Templars. He inspired a group of Salamanders. And a princeps inside a literal Imperator Titan, just by commanding her to "stand up". It's not warcraft, it's rolling a 20 on Charisma check. And it's their main Purpose. Versus a Commissar, who literally threatens to inspire.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:
As I said before, game mechanics =/= lore. There are many things which are utter nonsense from a lore point of view but are done for the sake of having a fun and functional game.

But the rules come with fluff. Indeed, most of our canon comes from the fluff in the weapon/unit entry.

Using your logic, boltguns aren't canonical because they have an in-game effect.

Oh, and nice straw man regarding Order. I get it, it's a known sci-fi trope, but in 40k there are two systems of physics - the Chaos of the Warp, which defies gravity, time and space constraints - and the normal physics of Order that stands outside of it.

Thus a personification of Order would be a spirit that wishes to constrain Chaos through things like time, space and conventional physics. Order doesn't seek perfection, it seeks continuity. It is resistant rather than aggressive.

Similarly, the prayers and sacred oils guard machines against supernatural things like gremlins which try to break them outside of the normal maintenance cycle.

Order finds the Eye of Terror an abomination and has latched onto anything to constrain and contain it. Thus: the Emperor, the Greater Good, the Machine God.

These appear to be effective both in-game and in-fluff.

Incorrect about Order. As WHF shows, the opposite end from Chaos (the gak Nagash is doing) is just as inimical to humanity as Chaos. Ditto with the Necrons in 40k.

Is it though Fezzik?

Whether your Chapter or not, my theory it could be something to do with their hypo and psychic indoctrination between switched on and off stands, as Chapter divergence won’t necessarily mean large differences in those processes, which are common to all Marine creation processes, as they’re all done from the same template.

A Princeps? Sure that could simply be being genuinely inspiring.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Grimaldus didn't just urge Princeps Zarha at a whim though. He made an effort to personally connect with her during the siege of Helsreach and it was part of their bond that they would fight to the last. So while Fezz is technically right in that Astartes Chaplains often inspire other non-Astartes to act, they failed to make clear that this was a long-term effort by Grimaldus that started with him threatening to kill the Imperator Titan if Invigilata didn't march for Helsreach.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Prayer seals are marks of literally sanctified paper by a chaplain of an order, who can literally turn the tide of battle by shouting words.

You'd be silly to say prayer marks don't have power. That's like saying when a chaplain makes an invocation and recites the litany of fury, his brothers around him don't ACTUALLY fight harder, they just do it by accident.

Does an IRL motivation speech have "power" just because it inspires greater effort?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Using your logic, boltguns aren't canonical because they have an in-game effect.

Lolwut. No. The argument is not "it has an in-game effect therefore not canon", it's "having an in-game effect doesn't necessarily make it canon".

To give an example: both space marine bolters and guardsman bolters are RF1/R24"/S4/AP0/D1. The argument that game mechanics are canon would force you to believe that both weapons are equivalent. But if you understand that game mechanics are not fluff you are free to acknowledge that the marine weapon is larger and more powerful despite the constraints of the D6 system forcing them to have the same in-game stats. And this fits the lore of marine bolters being powerful enough to break a normal human's arm with the recoil.

Same thing for purity seals. Their existence as a game mechanic doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have an effect but it sure as hell doesn't mean they do. Purity seals having an in-game effect may be nothing more than the designer needing a particular mechanic for the game to function and using the purity seal icon to represent it. And that mechanic may be purely a gameplay construct that exists only within a particular game.

Oh, and nice straw man regarding Order. I get it, it's a known sci-fi trope, but in 40k there are two systems of physics - the Chaos of the Warp, which defies gravity, time and space constraints - and the normal physics of Order that stands outside of it.

Except that's not true at all. Chaos exists outside the warp. A demon exists in "normal physics" and functions just fine there. The reality is that the physics of 40k are not the same as in our universe. Gravity, time, etc, are subjective in 40k and that's just how the universe works.

Order doesn't seek perfection, it seeks continuity.

And what is more continuous than a perfect crystal at absolute zero? War is messy. Civilization is messy. Annihilation is pure and orderly and unchanging.

What you're talking about is not a Chaos god of Order, it's a species-specific god like the gods of the orks. It seeks the triumph and domination of humanity above all, just as the ork gods exist as champions of orks, not of some abstract philosophical concept.

The trouble in this thread is the odd insistence a given thing can’t be both, varying from example to example.

For instance?

A Machine Spirit can be interpreted as a simple superstition. It can also be how software is described to people who don’t need to know anymore. It can and is also very advanced software in machines of war capable of limited independent action. It can be True AI. And it may even extend to a Warp Entity that becomes associated with a specific weapon.

A Purity Seal is something awarded in recognition of personal excellence. For most that’s all it is. For some, it may become a focus of something more esoteric.

A Chaplain’s Litanies may just be battle cheerleading. Or like the Purity Seal, it could have an esoteric, near supernatural effect.

Effects may be entirely psychosomatic. A squad fights harder under a given banner because it’s an ancient relic, and has never fallen before so they’ll be damned if it’s falling again. It may actually have a measurable, definable effect which belief alone cannot explain.

A cloak renowned for turning aside even the most dolorous blow may have an unacknowledged, one of a kind, power field type thing in its fabric - but it could be mystical.

It could be all of the above, potentially none of the above.

For The Imperium? The system works - and that’s enough. And so it continues on and on and on down the Millenia.

Indeed and within the 40K setting itself there is logical foundation for a range of explanations to be valid. The characters of the setting often do not look into these things, so the reader has it up to their own interpretation of events.

Accepting that what it true in one instance might not be true in another. A machine might have a spirit in one story and no spirit in another. Neither one invalidates the other, its just that within the vastness of the Imperium and its mystical, hyper advanced setting; both elements can be true.


It's actually a very advanced form of story telling because in most stories, authors tend to keep things simple. X=Y
The idea that X = Y or B or D or 4 depending on situation circumstance and even interpretation of the relationship on the part of the characters. That's a mystifying confusing element that can be tricky for a reader to pick up on; but which can make the setting ever so much more diverse and adaptive.

We don't know what they are really made from. If a purity seal produced by the serf whose family has made them for 10,000 years if copying the process exactly they could be embedded with all sorts of circuitry and whatnot and interface with the armour, gun or vehicles data systems and actually being unlocking upgrades or prompting the system to work in a different way.

There’s also the vampire type Faith vs True Faith.

A good example of those is in the fantastic 7th Doctor “Curse of Fenric”.

Actual Vampires (Haemovores), vs Russian Soldiers vs British Soldiers. The Doctor explains that true faith creates a psychic defence that disrupts the Haemovores.

The CoE Priest snuffs it, because the horrors of the 2nd World War broke his faith. The Russian Commander holds them off, as his faith in the Revolution is absolute. Indeed, The Doctor famously rubbishes Ace, his assistant, because her faith in The Doctor is interfering with The Doctor’s plan.

In terms of 40k? That’s like a Sister of Battle driving off Daemons with a supposedly Holy Relic, whilst anyone else would end up worm food, because they lack True Faith such as the Sister has.

 Overread wrote:

It's actually a very advanced form of story telling because in most stories, authors tend to keep things simple. X=Y
The idea that X = Y or B or D or 4 depending on situation circumstance and even interpretation of the relationship on the part of the characters. That's a mystifying confusing element that can be tricky for a reader to pick up on; but which can make the setting ever so much more diverse and adaptive.

The advantage of this creative ambiguity is that you can keep far more people happy.

That's why I keep saying: embrace the healing power of and.

 Gert wrote:
Grimaldus didn't just urge Princeps Zarha at a whim though. He made an effort to personally connect with her during the siege of Helsreach and it was part of their bond that they would fight to the last. So while Fezz is technically right in that Astartes Chaplains often inspire other non-Astartes to act, they failed to make clear that this was a long-term effort by Grimaldus that started with him threatening to kill the Imperator Titan if Invigilata didn't march for Helsreach.

Which is typical for Fezzik. I'm surprised he hadn't blocked you for showing evidence he was being deceptive.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s also the vampire type Faith vs True Faith.

A good example of those is in the fantastic 7th Doctor “Curse of Fenric”.

Actual Vampires (Haemovores), vs Russian Soldiers vs British Soldiers. The Doctor explains that true faith creates a psychic defence that disrupts the Haemovores.

The CoE Priest snuffs it, because the horrors of the 2nd World War broke his faith. The Russian Commander holds them off, as his faith in the Revolution is absolute. Indeed, The Doctor famously rubbishes Ace, his assistant, because her faith in The Doctor is interfering with The Doctor’s plan.

In terms of 40k? That’s like a Sister of Battle driving off Daemons with a supposedly Holy Relic, whilst anyone else would end up worm food, because they lack True Faith such as the Sister has.

Cool. We can induce "true" faith with entheogens like found in Tava root. It's nothing ineffable, not even in 40k.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s also the vampire type Faith vs True Faith.

A good example of those is in the fantastic 7th Doctor “Curse of Fenric”.

Actual Vampires (Haemovores), vs Russian Soldiers vs British Soldiers. The Doctor explains that true faith creates a psychic defence that disrupts the Haemovores.

The CoE Priest snuffs it, because the horrors of the 2nd World War broke his faith. The Russian Commander holds them off, as his faith in the Revolution is absolute. Indeed, The Doctor famously rubbishes Ace, his assistant, because her faith in The Doctor is interfering with The Doctor’s plan.

In terms of 40k? That’s like a Sister of Battle driving off Daemons with a supposedly Holy Relic, whilst anyone else would end up worm food, because they lack True Faith such as the Sister has.

Ah. An Inverse Witch test. Anyone who fails and dies isn't 'true,' and its the only way to tell.

Overread wrote:It's actually a very advanced form of story telling because in most stories, authors tend to keep things simple. X=Y
The idea that X = Y or B or D or 4 depending on situation circumstance and even interpretation of the relationship on the part of the characters. That's a mystifying confusing element that can be tricky for a reader to pick up on; but which can make the setting ever so much more diverse and adaptive.

Or just the diversity from lack of a setting bible, inconsistency, or just plain bad writing.
Its only mystifying and tricky for the reader if the writer lacks the skill to convey that the characters don't know but the author does.

Entheogens in 40K might be more than just tricking you into seeing a god, as we know gods - well, god like beings, definitely exist in 40K!

As for the reverse heretic test? Wouldn’t put it past the Ecclesiarchy.

It's kinda clear even the Eccliesarchy is "poly-theist" in that they both believe in their holy Emperor, but they also KNOW that other gods exist.

So is it still faith if you "know gods exist?"

According to the dictionairy, Faith is the belief in something without good rational justification.

So if you have proof of something, it's no longer "faith"? Like, The Imperial Cult KNOWS that Chaos Gods exist, but don't actually KNOW that the Emperor is or is not a god. So does that make them Chaos worshipers?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's kinda clear even the Eccliesarchy is "poly-theist" in that they both believe in their holy Emperor, but they also KNOW that other gods exist.

That's a huge overgeneralisation. The vast majority of Ecclesiarchal priests and adherents only know the God-Emperor with anything else being labeled a false god, while even those who do know of Chaos as an opposing concept don't know of the Gods and Daemons that live in the Warp. Heck, most Chaos Cults don't actually know the name of the God they end up worshiping but rather refer to them with pseudonyms or nicknames like Grandfather, the Lord of Skin and Sinew, or the Whisperer. Imperial Preachers don't go around spreading the names of the Dark Gods because they don't actually know them. If you read novels with such characters they preach about the evils of the enemy or Chaos in general but never say the names out loud.
In the eyes of the Imperial Cult, there are no other Gods, just monsters that prey on the weak and use them to subvert the will of the God-Emperor.

They "KNOW" the other gods are false with the same proof standard that they "KNOW" the emperor is a god. Which is to say, none.

But they do admit there are in existence other "godly beings" that make god like claims. It's like saying "The Admech worship the Omnisiah." You've literally just invoked the existence of a god, which means there would be two gods.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
They "KNOW" the other gods are false with the same proof standard that they "KNOW" the emperor is a god. Which is to say, none.

But they do admit there are in existence other "godly beings" that make god like claims. It's like saying "The Admech worship the Omnisiah." You've literally just invoked the existence of a god, which means there would be two gods.

No, they don't. There are powerful beings that call themselves gods or that people claim are gods but they are very specifically not gods as per the Imperial Cult because there is one god, the God-Emperor. There may be different interpretations of the Emperor but they are all still the Emperor. It's why the Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor went unnoticed for so long because apart from some visual differences, its creed and ethics were nominally in line with the baseline idea of the Emperor.
Rebuking false gods does not mean the Imperial Cult believes they exist, but rather the opposite. They are false precisely because they cannot exist as true gods.
The Omnissiah is an exception to the rule because the Imperium and Mechanicus require each other to survive. The Cult Mechanicus is accepted as a variation of the Imperial Cult that views the Emperor as either a manifestation of or a prophet of the Omnissiah. The Imperial Cult does not believe in the Omnissiah however and maintains that the God-Emperor is the only god there is. In the same way that the Astartes and Custodes aren't interfered with for not adhering to the Imperial Cult, so too are the Mechanicus left alone to practice their religion as long as they maintain loyalty to the Imperium.

Also there is proof of false gods - any major battle against the Ruinous Powers is going to have demons of some form or another appearing. It's going to have people with rotting bodies and mouths on their stomachs able to move, operate and be very powerful threat; whereas if you remove Nurgle those plagued warriors would collapse to nothing under their own infestation of rot, plague and maggots and all.


There's ample evidence in the setting for Gods, false and real. Plus the False Gods can be very powerful and godlike. False doesn't mean that they do not have power nor that they cannot act in a godly way, but that they are not the true God of Mankind. That worshipping them is only going to make things worse; to bring oblivion and damnation rather than all the gifts that the Emperor brings.


There's a wealth of evidence for the spiritual, magical, godly and more in the setting. Which is why we can have discussions on if machine spirits are real and why we end up with conclusions along the lines of "well they could be just superstition, they could be possession with a soul; they could be demons; they could be super advanced AI systems and they could be a combination of the various elements. And in the end all of them are valid arguments

I want to know, why so many people want ai to just be current computer driven ai.
If theyre plugging a brain into a door, flesh into a warp drive or geller field.
Computer ai, is well a bit boring for 40k.
Lets tear/ grow a brain, from this animal, human and grow it in a jar. All it knows is this 20 mtr warhound, 10 km warship.
Sure its only a small box as far as things go.
But it explains so much and is so 40k

It's literally heretical science to meld a human soul with a machine, or so I thought from the Inquitor games and books. That's bio transference, aka what the Necrons did. Also what the Eldar did/do with their stones or whatever.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's literally heretical science to meld a human soul with a machine, or so I thought from the Inquitor games and books. That's bio transference, aka what the Necrons did. Also what the Eldar did/do with their stones or whatever.

Souls yes, but don't forget the Imperium breeds clones just o have enough squishy brains to put into cogitators and servitors and such

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's literally heretical science to meld a human soul with a machine, or so I thought from the Inquitor games and books. That's bio transference, aka what the Necrons did. Also what the Eldar did/do with their stones or whatever.

Souls, sure. IF ITs human. Thats why WE only get to be door locks, servitors and cogitators. Id say even cogitators, that the public use are over reach.
Thats why trying to control a Titan is sometimes like trying to control a feral animal.
Its not bio transference if the brain is in control, and its not human.

And even if it was. Its just the same steps that every other race has walked down and failed. You think humans would be better at it?
Humans tried the Ai thing, didnt work. So its all wet ware now, not hard ware. Thats so much more 40k than computer ai. Its just stupid to think anything else.

I'm really not sure at all what point you are trying to make, or which side you are arguing for. It seems like you are just attacking the idea of AI in 40k?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It seems like you are just attacking the idea of AI in 40k?

Not really. Humans in the DOAT have nearly been exterminated by AI.
Seems like you cant accept the fact, that a brain in the jar, that has never had a body, cant be Ai

I can't accept the idea that English is your first language, because you're sentence structure is baffling.

I've been arguing FOR the existence of AI and spirits in 40k, and you seem to be attacking me for a position I'm not presenting. We call that straw man fallacy.

Here lets try basic statements and steelman our positions.

I Believe that AI and Spirits exist in the machines in 40k. I believe that they are distinguishable, but basically the same conceptual idea. A computer becomes self aware, or is given sentience, it then develops a personality. This is found in very large machines run by AIs, ala Titans and Starships. This is NOT found, to my knowledge, in small things such as toasters, and rifles. The idea of cyborgs such as Admech Skitarii or Servitors do not meet the idea of AI, therefor are excluded. They are a human brain in a machine. CAWL however is a black hole of 40k theories, but is generally regarded as a literal mcguffin that 40k writers have no clue what to do with.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I can't accept the idea that English is your first language, because you're sentence structure is baffling.

Maybe it isn't a good idea to attack people over their use of language when you make one of the basic English errors in your opening sentence...

 Dysartes wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I can't accept the idea that English is your first language, because you're sentence structure is baffling.

Maybe it isn't a good idea to attack people over their use of language when you make one of the basic English errors in your opening sentence...

I think we're now in the "arguing for the sake of arguing" phase of debate.

the ancient wrote:

Not really. Humans in the DOAT have nearly been exterminated by AI.
Seems like you cant accept the fact, that a brain in the jar, that has never had a body, cant be Ai

I mean if that brain is cloned it would qualify as *artificial intelligence*.

It might not count as *abominable intelligence* by 40k's standards though.

But keep in mind that cogitators aren't wetware.

They are AI alright. Just that they are highly regulated and never allowed to learn new orders or actions.

I disagree.

The sources I can find describe Battle Automata as having artificial neural gubbins. Modelled after, but not in itself, human brain tissue.

And to the best of my knowledge, there are no examples of Imperial Machine Spirits acting outside of their role or making anything akin to a leap of logic or actively rebelling and refusing to fight.

I guess it’s the difference between Instinct and Intelligence. A Machine Spirit is Artificial Instinct - but it is not an intelligence as such, as it simply cannot act outside of its assigned role.

I think this bear demonstrated with Warlord Titans. Yes they have been known to self-activate. Yes the Princeps needs to establish dominance over the Machine Spirit to guide his charge properly. But it’s akin to a purposefully dangerous dog being let off the leash. It’s acting on instinct and training/programming, not from rational thought.