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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Aecus Decimus wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If the Necrons, who have the power to literally delete stars, aren't bothered by them, why is Humanity?


Highlighted the important part. Tyranids are a huge threat if you're a faction with an average technology base somewhere around 1940 and sheer manpower as your only real asset. Tyranids are quite capable of handling primitive Imperial forces, especially the PDF garbage that is the only defense for most planets, and their ability to turn the fallen from both sides into more troops negates the Imperium's biggest advantage. For an advanced faction who cares if some angry animals are hungry. They have no ranged firepower, no armor against heavy weapons, and no real plan besides mass wave attacks. Put up some automated sentry guns, call in artillery strikes, and no more Tyranid problem.

Most orks aren't all that interested because there's nothing to loot and no victory to be won. Fight the Imperium and you get cool loot and you can laugh as they cry about all their losses. Fight Tyranids and even if you win you get nothing. It's like punching a brick wall, win or lose it's pointless and there's no fun in it. But even then some do fight Tyranids.
I don’t think you get Nids or Orks very well.

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Aecus Decimus wrote:
For an advanced faction who cares if some angry animals are hungry.
Iyanden cared. Malan'tai cared . . .

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Gryphonne IV and its Titan legion cared...
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Why would one want to conquer Terra? The implication is that if the Imperium's capital falls and the Emperor dies, something happens.

But what? All those humans don't just disappear.

All the humans don't dissapear, true. But interstellar navigation becomes a lot harder because the astronomicon is lost. Humans have a rough go of it in that case.


You lose cohesion and a chain of command that’s stood for 10,000 years.

Whilst humanity has ridden out that sort of thing before (hence the success of the Great Crusade) you go from fighting a single, might as well be unified foe, to lots of disparate human enclaves. Without a central command structure, and indeed the Administratum and Munitorum, Imperial logistics goes completely out the window.

Anarchy spreads. Who exactly do you impress upon for reinforcement and replenishment? If an Agri World decides it’s better off trading with say, Tau, what exactly can the Hive World(s) it used to ship to do about that?

Essentially so long as Terra and it’s centralised organisation and command stands, destroying the wider Imperium becomes problematic at best, impossible at worst.

   
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Aecus Decimus wrote:
No. It's a fortress world filled with the Imperium's most fanatical loyalists and it has no value other than those fanatics. A conquering enemy would get nothing of direct value. No resources, no infrastructure, no slave population, only a bunch of useless temples and city-sized office buildings that would probably be reduced to rubble anyway as every inhabitant fights to the death. Its sole value to the attacker would be denying it to the Imperium and that can be accomplished without conquering it. Destroy the planet from space, move on to the next target.


Well. Destroying Imperium could be considered to be of value for some.

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tneva82 wrote:
Aecus Decimus wrote:
No. It's a fortress world filled with the Imperium's most fanatical loyalists and it has no value other than those fanatics. A conquering enemy would get nothing of direct value. No resources, no infrastructure, no slave population, only a bunch of useless temples and city-sized office buildings that would probably be reduced to rubble anyway as every inhabitant fights to the death. Its sole value to the attacker would be denying it to the Imperium and that can be accomplished without conquering it. Destroy the planet from space, move on to the next target.


Well. Destroying Imperium could be considered to be of value for some.


Well yes, that's why I mentioned destroying the planet.
   
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Easier said than done, as you’d still need to get whatever means of destroying the planet in range and lined up etc.

Given Terra and indeed the Sol System are, presumably, far from short on anti-ship capability? How do you go about that?

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Easier said than done, as you’d still need to get whatever means of destroying the planet in range and lined up etc.

Given Terra and indeed the Sol System are, presumably, far from short on anti-ship capability? How do you go about that?


Like I said previously, the presumption of any invasion scenario is that the attacker is capable of destroying the defending fleet. And there's nothing particularly complicated about it. It's a very large fleet but otherwise it's all just stock Imperial stuff that can be dealt with by the conventional methods. And at that point you just bring in the planet killer and move on vs. launching a ground assault to attempt to conquer the planet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/08 15:22:28


 
   
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The Necrons can do it without ever even entering real space, right? They have weapons like the death mark that can fire their guns from dimensions we can't even perceive, like the 4th and 5th dimensions.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The Necrons can do it without ever even entering real space, right? They have weapons like the death mark that can fire their guns from dimensions we can't even perceive, like the 4th and 5th dimensions.


Deathmarks can skip between dimensions, but so far as I’m aware, their guns can’t shoot between them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, in terms of the numbers required?

Orks definitely have enough to do the job. But as they don’t have records, let alone centralised records? Chances are they don’t know of Terra on the whole, let alone where to find it.

Of course with Ghaz still gaining in power that is subject to change. But for the most part, it holds true,

Unless an Orky fleet of sufficient size to survive the encounter and report back happens upon the Sol System? Any Orky fleet pouring out into Sol is going to be dealt with in relatively short order.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/08 16:32:34


   
Made in us
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Essentially so long as Terra and it’s centralised organisation and command stands, destroying the wider Imperium becomes problematic at best, impossible at worst.
While being a lynchpin to the existence of the Imperium, Terra doesn't make it invincible while it stands. Remember that the Imperium is comprised of roughly a million worlds. Sounds like a lot! But in a galaxy of 200 billion stars, it's a pittance.

If, say, the Tyranids avoided the Imperium entirely and instead gathered resources from even just a large fraction of the other worlds out there, and then focussed their (it's?) efforts, the Imperium could likely be steamrolled.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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True. But the issue there is you still have some kind of central organisation so long as Terra stands. And there are examples of wholesale population transplants in Imperial History. And it’s that resilience which means to defeat The Imperium, Terra has to be dealt with.

In theory? And only in theory? The Imperium could survive by parking up population fleets, in stasis, in deep space. Wait for the Nids to Scoff’n’Go, then start all over again.

Potentially bonus points there as other than the Necrons, there might be nothing and no one else left to contest each settlement in turn.

   
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The IoM doesn't have the infrastructure to park their entire populations in deep space.

Maybe their 0.001%.
   
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That’s all it would take, provided everyone and everything else got munched by Nids

And of course nothing went wrong 😂

   
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In My Lab

Why wouldn't the Nids just eat the ships?
If everyone is in stasis, they'd be an easy snack. Barely any defenders.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
Why wouldn't the Nids just eat the ships?
If everyone is in stasis, they'd be an easy snack. Barely any defenders.

The idea would be to travel into deep space away of eveyrthing. Nid fleets may be big but space is so much bigger and emptier.

Still it is an all eggs in one basket and 40k being 40k means they all likely die because of their arrogance.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/08 17:56:35


 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
Why wouldn't the Nids just eat the ships?
If everyone is in stasis, they'd be an easy snack. Barely any defenders.


What Tyran said. Plus, Nids seem to be attracted to planetary bodies. With everyone in stasis, it seems likely there’s just not enough whatever sort of senses the Hive Fleets use to attract their attention.

And even 0.0001% of the Imperium’s population is….a lot.

   
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In My Lab

I did miss the deep space bit.

Seems incredibly risky, but so is staying, so... Fair enough.

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Of course there’s every chance being already self-sufficient there are Craftworlds doing the same ever since The Fall. Just quietly minding their own business and keeping well out the way!

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
True. But the issue there is you still have some kind of central organisation so long as Terra stands. And there are examples of wholesale population transplants in Imperial History. And it’s that resilience which means to defeat The Imperium, Terra has to be dealt with.

Terra could be untouched yet still cut off from the rest of the Imperium. And if the rest of the Imperium is falling, Terra would, after a time, be short work. This is the siege situation again.

The Imperium could be defeated by the quick and successful strike at Terra. But it could also be eaten away from the edges inward, slowly. The Imperium could be lost without ever touching Terra. If Terra still stood, but the rest of humanity had been subdued/eradicated, there's no Imperium any more. At that point Terra can be taken or ignored depending on the ultimate objectives of the aggressors.

In theory? And only in theory? The Imperium could survive by parking up population fleets, in stasis, in deep space. Wait for the Nids to Scoff’n’Go, then start all over again.

Potentially bonus points there as other than the Necrons, there might be nothing and no one else left to contest each settlement in turn.

Nids have gone after fleets and Craftworlds.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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This raises a question in my mind:

Can the nids build new and unnatural forms, or do they need an "Stc" of sorts? A Blueprint? Why can't the hive come together, and make a giant ass planet eating worm that hops out of the warp and eats the planet? Or throws planets at other planets?

The hive mind is dumb as hell bro.
   
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In My Lab

Because that’s a LOT of mass.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This raises a question in my mind:

Can the nids build new and unnatural forms, or do they need an "Stc" of sorts? A Blueprint? Why can't the hive come together, and make a giant ass planet eating worm that hops out of the warp and eats the planet? Or throws planets at other planets?

The hive mind is dumb as hell bro.
I think the hive mind probably feels it's functioning alright as is.

It also reminds me of the stat that in terms of mass, ants out-compete humans on earth, and just like humans they're found everywhere. Sometimes a lot of little things working together can out-compete single, much larger organisms.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in de
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




This is why I don't understand the Hive Mind's actions. Why spend the cost of taking Baal when instead, half that cost would net you all the surrounding planets in the system?

Because the big secret is they don't have the mass. If they did have the mass, are we really believing the Hive Mind would simply not just devour everything? The fact that they haven't yet is a clear indication that they can't. Yet. This means the "Rest of the swarm is still unseen" is bad writing. It just doesn't make any sense given the parameters of "known" information.
   
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Often GW writers are poopy. I don't blame the Hive Mind, I blame bad writers.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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A blockade would take out Terra in no time. Right after the fall of Cadia, Terra got cut off from the rest of the Imperium and was in utter chaos in days due to running out of food and water. Millions turned to Chaos worship and this led to a Khorne daemon invasion that marched straight on the palace. If an enemy could cut off Earth for any substantive period of time, the populous would tear itself apart. The Custodes and whatever other forces that were available would be overrun and the Emperor would die to a lack of access to souls.

Tyran wrote:
 Gert wrote:

It depends I would say. The size of the Hive Fleet required to take the Sol System would be immense and the losses would be massive. The Hive Mind would likely destroy the Emperor, at which point all the Biomass that was in the Sol System gets destroyed when reality and unreality collide.

Not necessarily, we know sufficiently strong (Hive Fleet Kronos) shadow in the warp can beat the warp out of realspace, so a Hive Fleet large enough to take the Sol System can probably beat the resulting warp rift into submission too.

And that's assuming the Tyranids do not also drain the Emperor in the process like the Doom of Malant'ai did to an Eldar Infinity Circuit.


There's a big difference between closing the small warp rifts that Tyranids come across and being able to close a new Eye of Terror that would result from the Emperor's death. The Tyranids might be able to absorb some of the energy but probably not all of it.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This is why I don't understand the Hive Mind's actions. Why spend the cost of taking Baal when instead, half that cost would net you all the surrounding planets in the system?

Because Baal is a priority military target. The Tyranids are waging a war here, and no war has been won by ignoring your enemy's infrastructure.
   
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Noctis Labyrinthus

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Thing is…who has the resources to create an effective embargo? Sure the Rift will Be having an impact, but how do you stop the other half of The Imperium supplying Terra?


You seem to have not picked up my meaning.

When I say "Abaddon plannned to" I mean he almost did and it was only through the efforts of a band of Custodes and Sisters of Silence stopping Abaddon from rendering the Warp around Vorlese unusable with a bomb that was made through reverse-engineered pylons from Cadia that kept this from occurring.

It is through this area that the Indomitus Crusade was able to be launched and the Imperium kept standing. But if this world were to fall and another faction or Chaos again did similar then Terra would once more be cut off and would slowly starve.

As far as Terra itself, it is hardly impregnable. A single Khornate army summoned by discontented heretics on Terra was able to actually penetrate the Lion Gate. And there would be a lot of really pissed off people on Terra that heretics could foment dissent and provoke more daemon summoning. Cut Terra off and it's not a matter of if it falls but when.
   
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Ah, fair enough


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This raises a question in my mind:

Can the nids build new and unnatural forms, or do they need an "Stc" of sorts? A Blueprint? Why can't the hive come together, and make a giant ass planet eating worm that hops out of the warp and eats the planet? Or throws planets at other planets?

The hive mind is dumb as hell bro.



Yes and no. The Hive Mind can seemingly only adapt DNA it encounters. That’s suggestive it has some analytical ability, and some level of innovation to put different genetic traits into different creatures. But it doesn’t seem it has the capability to simply invent DNA of its own accord. It can only use and adapt existing stuff.

That in my mind is similar to working with palettes and old furniture to make a new piece of furniture. The carpenter can do that because he understands his materials, but he still can’t simply make a new tree.

Yes my analogies are always crap.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/09 08:39:24


   
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 Tyran wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This is why I don't understand the Hive Mind's actions. Why spend the cost of taking Baal when instead, half that cost would net you all the surrounding planets in the system?

Because Baal is a priority military target. The Tyranids are waging a war here, and no war has been won by ignoring your enemy's infrastructure.


US Civil War, Any war in Afghanistan in the last 50 years, US Revolutionary War.

It's called Isometric Warfare, and is extremely effective when your opponent greatly outmatches you.
   
 
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