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queen_annes_revenge wrote: I just saw your page on Instagram. That poxwalker looks good man! I always admire when people can get lots of different hues into a piece like that.
Nice, thanks!
There was lots of study going on in that Poxwalker. First question about the base color layer is, how to apply it flawlessly, so there are no excess layers of paint? Many Youtube videos suggest that you apply it kind of roughly with a large brush and very violent manner. Some suggest putting many layers depending on color. Some warn not to tear the previous apply and leave brush strokes on it.
You can achieve a good base color layer with fewer passes quite easily. Let's take a yellow color named Flash Gitz Yellow. I noticed that this color does not like to set down and form a good layer with a brush stroke. Probably a good method to tame the beast is: You thin down the color with a good amount of water, but it looks on the wet palette as a solid opaque film of color. Then you apply it with a sort of puddling on the surface, with a relatively suitable brush, so it leaves a unanimous film of color. When the water evaporates, it leaves a nice thin layer of color with good coverage. If there is something to correct, you use the same method.
We discussed previously what makes a good color scheme for minifigure painting. Is it about how vivid the colors are or how they match the color theory? What is the winning lighting?
Don't stress about layers. It's going to take a butt load of layers before you start obscuring details as long as youre not applying it with a trowel.
Ironically enough, I actually almost do this. I basecoat virtually all my models black, and in the name of not wasting paint I squeeze a blob of pure paint directly onto the model, then use a crappy old brush to spread it around. Repeat until the whole model/piece is covered. Thin with a little water if you really need to. Then for further basecoats I usually slap a couple of layers on to get good covering. You really don't need to worry about your base layers, just get them on smoothish and you'll be fine.
Yellows are a slightly different beast. Yellow pigments are incredibly hard to cover with. These will cause issues if you try to do tons of layers or get impatient and go thick. Yellows have to be approached differently. A surefire way I like is to get a base layer with good coverage, similar to yellow, like beige, light brown, etc. Then you mix your yellows into this colour and layer up, increasing the amount of yellow until it's pure. Alternatively you can use colours like orange or pink to base before yellows, but this is a touch more advanced in terms of theory and execution.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/03/07 18:24:32
How do you ensure that there are no specks in the paint and the base coat is even when you apply it the way you described. I have tried all sorts of methods, but it all tends to end up with a coat too thick or uneven. I have watched your works on Instagram, and i have to say it works, because paint jobs on your models are flawless.
What about those different steps when you work with different colors and they need to be built up like how you described yellow. Is this something like you find from a color theory book, or where are the answers to all color combos?
My solution to basecoating in general is to use an airbrush. Even difficult colours like yellow and white become a doddle when applied with a spray can or airbrush. You can use masking tape or masking putty also when working woth spray cans.
The main reason why I prefer cans / airbrushes over using a paintbrush for the basecoats is thinness. Now not all colours are tricky to basecoat thinly, so YMMV. Paints tend to build up in layers as we all know, so if my base coats are as thin as possible, that leaves me more freedom in the subsequent painting stages (where I still need to keep paints thinned so as to not build up visible caking)
For yellow, using a brownish yellow/beige basecoat before going to more pure yellow helps a bunch. Same with red - sometimes orange/peach before going to fully red works wonders. IME both white and yellow acrylics are the worst colours, not a chemistry nerd but obviously something in acrylic paint pigments makes those two particularly difficult to get right. Again, this is something where acrylic laquers might fare better? Could be worth a try..
For optimizing paint consistency before painting, something like this might be worth investing into? Sisumodels in HKI sells these, at least..
queen_annes_revenge wrote:I have a different experience here. Virtually all my cloaks are red on the inside, and I layer from black to light red. I find it looks pretty good.
It does, but it's not exactly the cherry-red pinstripes from the initial example.
Kake2000 wrote:
I do not have a problem spending hundreds of hours on a 4 millimeter tall model. But the problem is a wasted time and ruined model. Wasted time means that you spend 100 hours doing something wrong with bad ideology or methods, and that is what infuriates me mostly. That is why it is better to find the right path as soon as possible, and not after you have spent 100 euros on models and it is embarrassing to even look at them. It is a pride question. You can always look back and think: “I wish somebody had told that before…”.
Honestly, after that, I think it might benefit you to spend a week or two with your paints and a piece of primed board.
Kake2000 wrote:What about oils, are they a health hazard? Can you paint with oils in the same room where you live?
Oils are generally fine (don't eat the cadmium red) the solvents less so. Even low odour thinners are not 'safe', just 'safer'. Use them, but use plenty of ventilation too.
I wonder (idly) how water-mixable oils would work on a mini, but I'd need to slap some of that on a primed board myself
tauist wrote:IME both white and yellow acrylics are the worst colours, not a chemistry nerd but obviously something in acrylic paint pigments makes those two particularly difficult to get right.
Might depend on the pigment. I'd be surprised if mini paint lines can't stump up for titanium white, but I'd guess they use a lot of arylide yellows.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/08 12:30:20
Sorry for the dust particles, but here is a prime example from 1 year ago of how wrong colors accumulate fast. The base spray on the entire model is dark Alien Purple, where the base color on the trench coat is an orange with something like 10 coats, applied with a very crude and fast method. You can see major lumps and brush strokes everywhere. That is not all. All the color transitions are made with glaze medium, which further damages the paint job. This work is definitely going to a paint stripper as tauist suggested.
I don't know what to tell you. If I could pull off this level of gradienting with a paintbrush, and still weren't satisfied, I'd try alternative mediums (oils, airbrush..) or would keep on looking for an expressive style where this level of rendering finesse is more than appropriate. Another explanation - the difference between your results and the ones you (think you) seek, might all just be a matter of experience and seconds/minuters/hours spent actually painting.. If necessary, strip, start over, rinse and repeat.. But also realize that it is good to be surrounded by at least some old works, even imperfect ones, they encourage you to keep going.
Your rendering is fine, you just need to get your bearings right on how it relates to everything else.. If you feel like you are making mistakes, try to figure out a way to make them a part of your style, instead of agonizing..
BTW, are you familiar with the online magazine 28? Might find some stuff in it interesting. There are some artists on there that have less rendering finesse than you, yet manage to make everything work. Might serve as further ideas & inspiration (apologies if this is all familiar to you already)
Kake2000 wrote: How do you ensure that there are no specks in the paint and the base coat is even when you apply it the way you described. I have tried all sorts of methods, but it all tends to end up with a coat too thick or uneven. I have watched your works on Instagram, and i have to say it works, because paint jobs on your models are flawless.
What about those different steps when you work with different colors and they need to be built up like how you described yellow. Is this something like you find from a color theory book, or where are the answers to all color combos?
I just don't? I honestly don't worry about it. On the rare occasions something gets in the paint and sticks to the model, I take a scalpel and gently scrape/flick it off.
Basecoat evenness comes through multiple layers, so the first couple don't really need worrying about, as they will be covered anyway. It's like when you polish a shoe. You chuck a few layers of polish on and let them dry before starting your bull layers.
The yellow method was just something instinctual that I developed through trial and error when trying to paint yellow.
I honestly think your main issue is you're a bit of a perfectionist and are seeking instruction book techniques to achieve it, when this isn't really how you achieve it with painting.
I can relate to this, as I am the same, but I think focusing on being a little freer and worrying less about precise instructions, theories or techniques.. I honestly think that cultist you've done with the funky colour combos looks pretty good. Certainly not bad enough to strip and repaint. It's an interesting and unique style. You can clearly do smooth transitions, high points etc.
I think you need to just let loose at the paint desk. You can clearly do the basics, and even more advanced stuff, so you don't need to sweat having step by steps or the top brand glaze mediums.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/03/08 18:26:58
I have to remark that people here are extremely friendly, polite, constructive and helpful. I have learnt more here in a relatively small time span, than alone with Youtube. If somebody asks something trivial, DakkaDakka is the place to go. I am very, very grateful.
So that is the disease the fictional engineer in Halt and Catch Fire had, when he worked extensively with electronics and solvents. Can acrylics possess similar dangers? They somehow smell odd, if they are contained in an airtight container and opened afterwards. The Army Painter super glue smells alarming.
BTW, are you familiar with the online magazine 28? Might find some stuff in it interesting. There are some artists on there that have less rendering finesse than you, yet manage to make everything work. Might serve as further ideas & inspiration (apologies if this is all familiar to you already)
Never heard of it before. This looks fantastic, I will definitely start to read it from now on!
I just don't? I honestly don't worry about it. On the rare occasions something gets in the paint and sticks to the model, I take a scalpel and gently scrape/flick it off.
Basecoat evenness comes through multiple layers, so the first couple don't really need worrying about, as they will be covered anyway. It's like when you polish a shoe. You chuck a few layers of polish on and let them dry before starting your bull layers.
The yellow method was just something instinctual that I developed through trial and error when trying to paint yellow.
I honestly think your main issue is you're a bit of a perfectionist and are seeking instruction book techniques to achieve it, when this isn't really how you achieve it with painting.
I can relate to this, as I am the same, but I think focusing on being a little freer and worrying less about precise instructions, theories or techniques.. I honestly think that cultist you've done with the funky colour combos looks pretty good. Certainly not bad enough to strip and repaint. It's an interesting and unique style. You can clearly do smooth transitions, high points etc.
I think you need to just let loose at the paint desk. You can clearly do the basics, and even more advanced stuff, so you don't need to sweat having step by steps or the top brand glaze mediums.
Very true. I also do not entirely support definitive guides, for example strict color theories, because that sucks all the fun out of it. Art industry is a pretty good example of how everything is in between certain guidelines/preferences. For example, I never managed to get a job in the video game industry, although i went all in for it, when i studied 3d graphics especially targeted for video games. The problem is that nobody wants exclusive work to be done. Worst of it is the marketing and web site sectors, where there is no room for expression and unique designs, because the company does not want to take risks(?). Even though Warhammer franchises are definitely in an art industry sector, it is definitely a contrast against the dullness of an everyday weekday. I would not mind that the local SuperMarket has neo-gothic (whatever that is, certainly not emo) skulls, bones and chains rattling in between the marquee, like in Warhammer universes.
There has been a debate on the Internet about what color brand performs best on minifigure painting. Is it Vallejo, Citadel or Armypainter acrylics?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/09 12:43:42
It's really subjective. It's more a question of finding the paint brand that is most compatible with your painting style.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Having said that... I found these videos pretty good for an assessment of most of the brands out there. With the disclaimer that it will obviously be subjective to an extent, and they were also limited with some of the paint selections provided by the manufacturers...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/09 13:24:17
Having said that... I found these videos pretty good for an assessment of most of the brands out there. With the disclaimer that it will obviously be subjective to an extent, and they were also limited with some of the paint selections provided by the manufacturers...
Nice.
After both of the videos, it is safe to say that Vallejo and Citadel are pretty sure choices, also due to availability. Hopefully Vallejo Game Color and Model Color do not have drastic differences. The Internet says that the Game line has brighter colors than the Model line.
Yeah, GC has a lot of brighter, more vibrant tones suitable for fantasy / sci fi. MC is more for historical modelling, lots of greys, greens, browns, etc suitable for real-world military vehicles and uniforms and so on.
Paint-wise, I believe MC was meant to be more pigment-dense and could give better coverage. GC has just been reformulated though, don't know if this has made any difference.
You really need to try paints yourself to find your personal favourite, it's something that comes over time. Youtube paint reviews are great, but nothing beats personal trial and error.
My most used paints are Citadel, P3 and Scale 75. I think that P3 paints in particular are very underrated, it's a shame that they aren't more widely available.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: You really need to try paints yourself to find your personal favourite, it's something that comes over time. Youtube paint reviews are great, but nothing beats personal trial and error.
My most used paints are Citadel, P3 and Scale 75. I think that P3 paints in particular are very underrated, it's a shame that they aren't more widely available.
I will 2nd this, they get stocked in some of the FLGS here, and i always grab some if i can.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kake2000 wrote: Sorry for the dust particles, but here is a prime example from 1 year ago of how wrong colors accumulate fast. The base spray on the entire model is dark Alien Purple, where the base color on the trench coat is an orange with something like 10 coats, applied with a very crude and fast method. You can see major lumps and brush strokes everywhere. That is not all. All the color transitions are made with glaze medium, which further damages the paint job. This work is definitely going to a paint stripper as tauist suggested.
I would sacrifice 1000 Ultra-Marines for this blending skill with a brush, just for perspective lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/10 23:35:49
For acrylics, my goto is AK interactive. However, I'm very interested in Gunze Mr Hobby paints and Tamiya these days as well, because my idol uses them almost exclusively. Problem is, as those are often laquer based, I can't really try them at the house, and I don't want to use my project studio space for miniature painting..
I bought the entire selection of Vallejo Game Colors, at least what was available here.
Also been using the micro-glazing method, and I have to say it just works. The leg in the picture took about 6-8 hours to finish, but only this phase. I ought to write a guide here somewhere to express gratitude, because this method really can not go wrong, although there are some external factors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/17 18:54:28
Looks good that leg. That's a long time for a leg though! But if the method works for you that's the main thing. I would suggest trying some experiments with layering rather than just glazing, as I feel like your basically taking the long way round doing it that way.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Looks good that leg. That's a long time for a leg though! But if the method works for you that's the main thing. I would suggest trying some experiments with layering rather than just glazing, as I feel like your basically taking the long way round doing it that way.
True. There was some layering before micro-glazing. The transitions were blocked with layering, and borders were smoothed with glazing. Of course if there was enough room to layer the colors.
Another question is, if you want to add some different nuances to anywhere of this sort of layout, should it just be made with regular glazing or should there be a breakpoint somewhere on the original blend? Breakpoint is marked with an arrow on the wet palette. When you choose the breakpoint, you start to blend another color to that hue. This sounds like a kind of crazy task, but is this the correct method to blend multiple colors on a blend, or is the regular glazing right way to refract the original blend?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/19 13:33:33
Still trying to figure out how glazes actually work. In the picture, there are 3 scenarios, A, B and C. In A, you push the lighter tone towards a lighter tone, and it works. Why B and C do not, is another question. In B, you push a darker tone towards lighter tone, and this does not work at all, and it somehow muddles the border section with some kind of unformed (gray?). In C, you push a darker tone towards a darker tone, and the result is also something unformed.
So, what is going on?
A little tip I remember him giving is about 'micro-glazing', which I imagine is like a kind of stippling but very controlled, and with direction (as we know you push the paint towards the lighter tone when glazing).
Is the scenario A what we are looking for? Why C does not work?
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Dark to dark glazing does work. I do it with my shadows all the time. I'm not really sure how you've figured that one?
Good question. All I came up with is that layering/blocking the transitions are too thick, which causes the muddle effect and the “graying” comes from impatience of waiting for the glazes to dry on the surface. What comes to mind is that if you operate like hundreds of glazes in the full spectrum of a gradient, the tones just die, if they are not dried properly, hence the graying.
What do you think? What is the proper way to layer the colors, so it does not create thick steps? I tried to block the colors with like 2-3 layers on each step. Depressing to think about these sorts of problems. One day you think you have it, next day it is totally opposite.
Sounds like you're having difficulty applying the lighter colors over dark areas.
Try starting the base coat with the mid tone instead of working from dark to light, then you're less likely to run into an issue where a thick layer lifts when you over apply water over and over over it.
Also, it seems like you're sort of mixing up blending with glazing. Glazing is more of a translucent layer that bleeds the colors underneath to create more seamless transition - you're not aiming to "push" one color over the other. Ideally, the color of the glaze is the "in between" color between the two colors you're transitioning, and it's applied over both colors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/03 15:50:28
skchsan wrote: Sounds like you're having difficulty applying the lighter colors over dark areas.
Try starting the base coat with the mid tone instead of working from dark to light, then you're less likely to run into an issue where a thick layer lifts when you over apply water over and over over it.
Also, it seems like you're sort of mixing up blending with glazing. Glazing is more of a translucent layer that bleeds the colors underneath to create more seamless transition - you're not aiming to "push" one color over the other. Ideally, the color of the glaze is the "in between" color between the two colors you're transitioning, and it's applied over both colors.
Here is the wet palette. The transition between two colors are blended here as seamlessly as possible, then the glazes are made. At least those are the most translucent glazes I am able to get/make. Then the glazes are used in the borders of two tones where grading is heavy to smooth things out.
skchsan wrote: Are you by any chance applying the glazes while the wet blended portion is still wet?
I don't use wet blending, yet, but I admit there is a problem with applying glazes too fast. Even though it looks like a glaze is settled on the surface of a figure, it could be that it is not entirely dried. Interesting finding also is that there is no definitive method/direction on how to apply glazes. You can apply them how it serves a purpose, like shown in the A, B, C diagram.
skchsan wrote: Are you by any chance applying the glazes while the wet blended portion is still wet?
I don't use wet blending, yet, but I admit there is a problem with applying glazes too fast. Even though it looks like a glaze is settled on the surface of a figure, it could be that it is not entirely dried. Interesting finding also is that there is no definitive method/direction on how to apply glazes. You can apply them how it serves a purpose, like shown in the A, B, C diagram.
Right. Glaze is essentially just a thinned down paint used to 'tint' an area. There's no specific way to use them. In your wet palette pictures, it looks like the watered down paint is just lifting the previous paint job off the paper.
Another way of using glazes is to apply to the whole gradient as opposed to "micro" glazing as you describe at the transition points only.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/05 19:50:32
skchsan wrote: Are you by any chance applying the glazes while the wet blended portion is still wet?
I don't use wet blending, yet, but I admit there is a problem with applying glazes too fast. Even though it looks like a glaze is settled on the surface of a figure, it could be that it is not entirely dried. Interesting finding also is that there is no definitive method/direction on how to apply glazes. You can apply them how it serves a purpose, like shown in the A, B, C diagram.
Right. Glaze is essentially just a thinned down paint used to 'tint' an area. There's no specific way to use them. In your wet palette pictures, it looks like the watered down paint is just lifting the previous paint job off the paper.
Another way of using glazes is to apply to the whole gradient as opposed to "micro" glazing as you describe at the transition points only.
Nice, very nice.
Is it a problem if the paint soaks water through the paper? I usually put that much water that the paper kind of floats on the water bed, above the sponge. Wonder if the sponge is necessary at all. If the sponge is just moist, the colors will dry way too fast and embed to the paper?
Kake2000 wrote: [Is it a problem if the paint soaks water through the paper? I usually put that much water that the paper kind of floats on the water bed, above the sponge. Wonder if the sponge is necessary at all. If the sponge is just moist, the colors will dry way too fast and embed to the paper?
Yes, your new diagram perfectly shows what glazing aims to do.
Amount of water your paint gets mixed will affect how translucent it is. It's all up to how "clear" you want the paint.
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