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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
If I have a squad of Tactical Marines, two Intercessor Squads, a Terminator Captain and an Assault Terminator Squad to go with him, and a Land Raider, which of the Marine Detachments can I not take?

Now, what if I have a squad of Poxwalkers, two squads of Plague Marines, a Lord of Contagion and a Blightlord Terminator squad to go with him, and a Land Raider, which Chaos Detachments can I not take?

I don't know if you're just wilfully misinterpreting what I'm saying or genuinely don't understand the point I'm making.

A dedicated Space Wolfs player likely won't be playing them as Blood Angels, though they might play them as regular Codex Marines.
But a generic Marine list can play as most all the different detachments. No other army has that available to them, to my knowledge.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
If I have a squad of Tactical Marines, two Intercessor Squads, a Terminator Captain and an Assault Terminator Squad to go with him, and a Land Raider, which of the Marine Detachments can I not take?

Now, what if I have a squad of Poxwalkers, two squads of Plague Marines, a Lord of Contagion and a Blightlord Terminator squad to go with him, and a Land Raider, which Chaos Detachments can I not take?

I don't know if you're just wilfully misinterpreting what I'm saying or genuinely don't understand the point I'm making.

The point you’re making is just factually incorrect. You choosing not to take an option doesn’t mean it’s not there to take.

An ADEPTUS ASTARTES army without any chapter-specific units can factually choose from 5 different detachments (6 if it lacks psykers).
An ADEPTUS ASARTES army with a chapter specific units can factually pick from 2 different detachments.

The fact you might only want to use one of them for lore reasons is bye the bye, you still have that choice open to you when all other armies are restricted to a single option until they get a codex (and marines are getting one of the first codicies and will get even more then).

All Space Marines sub-factions also share the vast majority of units.

Chaos Space Marine sub-factions by contrast share only a few units and have zero choice of detachment beyond the one.

Also, the ‘grey legion’ phenomenon of people switching between the space marine faction du jour has been a thing for decades, so people do absolutely move between the options, even if you don’t.

Trying to catch up, but why does blast even exist in it's current form? IT's just 9ths version with a different font. No one ever bothered with it because no one ever used anything but MSUs. Large Model Count units are often less productive or outright inferior than smaller elite teams.

Why does blast even still exist? Just make it "ignores cover". Done.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Trying to catch up, but why does blast even exist in it's current form? IT's just 9ths version with a different font.

It's not though. It works in whole units of 5, rather than instantly causing more hits the second you go above 5. It also doesn't have a ceiling, meaning it scales with bigger units. Also means you can take a 6-man unit without blast weapons suddenly becoming much more effective against you. If anything, it means that taking things other than MSU isn't as big a liability as it was under the 9th blast rules.

It's a much better rule.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
An ADEPTUS ASTARTES army without any chapter-specific units can factually choose from 5 different detachments (6 if it lacks psykers).
An ADEPTUS ASARTES army with a chapter specific units can factually pick from 2 different detachments.

Yeah but at the same time, how many are actually going to do that? If we presume that Chapter Specific units are only available to a specific detachment, how many Blood Angel or Dark Angel players are going to give those up to play the "regular" Marine deatchment?

Lord Zarkov wrote:
The fact you might only want to use one of them for lore reasons is bye the bye, you still have that choice open to you when all other armies are restricted to a single option until they get a codex (and marines are getting one of the first codicies and will get even more then).

And I'm saying it's a false choice, or the illusion of choice. Yes, you can technically take your Dark Angels and play them using the Space Wolf detachment, but how many people are actually going to do that?

Lord Zarkov wrote:
Also, the ‘grey legion’ phenomenon of people switching between the space marine faction du jour has been a thing for decades, so people do absolutely move between the options, even if you don’t.

Fair enough - I even know someone who played Deathwatch who then jumped to Space Wolves when they became powerful, but still used all Deathwatch models - so I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but I still think most people are more likely to stick to their rather than flip flop between vastly different armies with all sorts of different units.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Fair enough - I even know someone who played Deathwatch who then jumped to Space Wolves when they became powerful, but still used all Deathwatch models - so I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but I still think most people are more likely to stick to their rather than flip flop between vastly different armies with all sorts of different units.

But the core of all Loyalist Marine armies are the same.

Currently, discounting FW and Legends, Marines without supplements have in common 21 HQs, 6 Troops, 5 DTs, 29 Elites, 14 Fast Attacks, 3 Fliers, 22 Heavy Support, and 1 Fortification.
That's literally 101 datasheets shared. Now, given what we saw with the Deathwing Command Squad, I'd imagine the Elites will shrink a bit as datasheets get bunched together, but even with some pretty significant merging, that's 80 or more datacards that can be shared between five different detachments, and a sixth if you don't take Psykers.

If you file the names off, some of them work well for other chapters.

Deathwatch is like combat doctrines, just different effects. You could probably replace the flavor text with a by-the-book Ultramarine quoting the Codex for tactical advice, instead of assault/tactical/dev doctrine.

Iron Hands could go with the BT detachment, and just always roll with the 6+++ FNP and leadership oath.

Space Wolves might want less talk around the fire with beers, and more blood soaked red rage with the BA one.

Crimson Fists might want to stand fast with the Grim Resolve.

But other days you might not want to lean in to the special roles. But they are there. I don’t see myself personally going for the BA/SW ones as an Ultramarine, but could see myself making lists that would fit well with the others, and still be true to my colors.

I see any variety as a great opportunity to counts as cool thematic armies.

IE an assault heavy wulfen tickled great company uses the blood angel detachment to reflect their more brutal nature.

It's just a shame that this ability has been taken from everyone else.

I used to run different craftworld lists based on the different army focuses - a psyker host used ulthwe, a wraith host used iyanden etc.


It gave each aspect of my eldar army a unique perspective without having to have 5 different painted armies.

 Nevelon wrote:
If you file the names off, some of them work well for other chapters.

That's really the problem with some of the people on this forum that always miss my point: they're so focused on names. Blood Angels are absolutely not the only Marine Chapter with a Death Company equivalent after all. You just need a "Marines that done gone nuts" entry. Nothing stops Death Company from existing as is and none of their fluff was lost, but some are too obsessed with legacy and tradition of too many Marine codices.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Trying to catch up, but why does blast even exist in it's current form? IT's just 9ths version with a different font. No one ever bothered with it because no one ever used anything but MSUs. Large Model Count units are often less productive or outright inferior than smaller elite teams.

I wasn't aware that I could take less than 10 grots in a squad.

Tsagualsa wrote:


I still hope for a cynical cashgrab in them 'recognizing their errors and listening' and releasing a Storm of Magic™-like box in the middle of the edition, with psychic powers for everyone and some wargear, enhancements etc.... call it Darker Millenium* or whatever.

*

Spoiler:

or 2 Dark 2 Millenium, 10*100 Dark, Dark Millenium 2: Psychic Boogaloo

That was one of my favorite implementations of Psychic phases.


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dominuschao wrote:
Ya marines could go full grav and and las spam probably be okay with full rerolls but many others won't have an answer. Basically I think this is the vehicle edition similar to what we've seen before from around 5th.. only without melta and plasma.

I remember playing against wave serpent spam with assault cannon only deathwing and thinking this is the most miserable experience I've had in awhile. It could be like that.

Grav is (likely) worse off than Melta. If Grav stays S5, while Land Raiders etc go T12, Impulsors go T10 etc - you're looking at wounding on 6's.


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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Wow, most HH stuff will not be allowed in GW Tourneys now.

And stuff that isn't HH. Like multiple daemon engines, and Dreadclaws, which have been available (with models, that existed long before HH) since 3rd edition. No more drop pods for CSM. "Can't balance them". Yeah, right. If they can balance the other daemon engines and Loyalist Scum drop pods, then they can balance these just fine.

Wonder if we'll be seeing some GW HH Tournaments and they're trying to feed a Sunk Cost participation rate


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They weren't listed as supplements.

You can just say "No, the article did not say they were full Codexes".

I suspect they were, I thought I saw a one-liner in one of the Faction Focus that said the Divergent Chapters were going to go back to their own Codex. You'd have to do some clicking and CTRL+F'ing to be sure though.


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PenitentJake wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
So to turn it back on you, don't pretend that SM players don't have this option, because they do

As per the rules we have seen so far, they don't. Detachments are locked to a Faction Keyword and so are the units you can take in your army. So if you go with the Dark Angels Detachment then you can't take any of the basic SM stuff (like Intercessors) because they don't have the Dark Angels Faction Keyword (only Adeptus Asterates). But you must take Dark Angels as your Faction Keyword to be able to take the Dark Angels Detachment. GW will probably fix this with some kind of additional rule but... y'know, personally, I wouldn't bet money on it.

Here's the fething quote from today's FF article:

This means that any Space Marine army can choose to use these Detachments should they see fit, provided they abide by their restrictions – no matter how much you love Librarians, you won’t be taking Space Marine psykers in a Righteous Crusaders Detachment. The main one you’ll need to worry about is that you can’t mix in units with a different Chapter’s keywords, so no non-Space Wolves named characters or Deathwing Terminators in the Champions of Russ Detachment, for example.

Go ahead and try to tell me the bold text doesn't mean what it says.

That's not what people are telling you - they're telling you this doesn't mean what you think it means. Blue Blood Angels are still blood Angels. People have been "fluffing" their blue/green/grey/red whatever Marines as Blood/Dark/Ultras/etc that are just pretending or borrowed equipment etc. for decades now. This is just the "rule" that makes that possible.

How anyone can not see the simple fact that Marines get six detachments at launch while every other race only gets one is beyond me. Claiming 'oh no one will actually do it' is irrelevent; firstly because you can't possibly know that to be true, but more importantly because Marines still get that choice while no one else does.

Marines, no matter what their colour, have the choice of six detachments limited only by any given players' attachment to Chapter-specific units, with the vast majority of choices being agnostic and thus free to take in any of them. Every other faction has the choice of one detachment only, and could be stuck with just that for a very long time. There's no debate about this without twisting oneself into an insane logic pretzel - it's what we've expressly been told.

Maybe the Codices will balance out those numbers; but some factions will be waiting *literal years* for their book so it's entirely irrelevant.

I think the point isn't "Blood Angels are still Blood Angels". I think the point is, "My random assortment of SM minis have 6 detachments to choose from, whatever the detachment is called, while nobody else has this luxury."

Like, my Slaanesh army is still a Slaanesh army, but Daemons don't have 4 detachments to choose from. It's plausible to have 4 Daemon detachments I could use my Slaanesh minis in. Oh, I may not be able to take the Masque of Slaanesh, being a named character, in all 4 detachments. But having 4 choices only adds to my enjoyment.

I don't want SMs to have fewer choices. But I also don't want them to be the only ones with extra choices.

Sure, some minis are restricted. Sure, some players will eschew options in order to be purists. But those are choices that should be available wherever it makes sense.

Yes, the codices may well solve this problem. They should. But the issue is that SM players have more options from day 1, AND will be the first codex.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
If you file the names off, some of them work well for other chapters.

That's really the problem with some of the people on this forum that always miss my point: they're so focused on names. Blood Angels are absolutely not the only Marine Chapter with a Death Company equivalent after all. You just need a "Marines that done gone nuts" entry. Nothing stops Death Company from existing as is and none of their fluff was lost, but some are too obsessed with legacy and tradition of too many Marine codices.

I think GW could have avoided all this ire if they had simply given the detachment a generic name then wrote "Recommended for Blood Angels / Death Watch, etc." at the bottom of the detachment. Now your SW can use the BA detachment or your UM can use the Combat Doctrines DW detachment.

But since some of the detachments are very flavorful, SW and BT for instance, I really think these should have been Faction bonuses rather detachment abilities.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
How anyone can not see the simple fact that Marines get six detachments at launch while every other race only gets one is beyond me. Claiming 'oh no one will actually do it' is irrelevent; firstly because you can't possibly know that to be true, but more importantly because Marines still get that choice while no one else does.

But how is that any different to what it is now then?

Marines are the most expansive faction in 40k. They have their own section to themselves, where as everyone else is lumped into Imperial, Chaos or Xenos.

Did people truly think that Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc. wouldn't get their own get-you-by rules to start the new edition? That any and all Marines would be lumped into a single set of rules and that'd be it until the Codices arrived?

That only thing about this that surprised me is that the various Chapters are detachments for the overall Marine faction, rather than factions unto themselves (something I suspect Codex releases will fix, but whatever that's a different discussion and one that's not entirely clear based upon the information presented so far). But really, being annoyed that Blood Angels still exist at the start of 10th Ed strikes me as highly bizarre (and perhaps a tiny bit petty).

Hecate wrote:
I think the point isn't "Blood Angels are still Blood Angels". I think the point is, "My random assortment of SM minis have 6 detachments to choose from, whatever the detachment is called, while nobody else has this luxury."

Like, my Slaanesh army is still a Slaanesh army, but Daemons don't have 4 detachments to choose from. It's plausible to have 4 Daemon detachments I could use my Slaanesh minis in. Oh, I may not be able to take the Masque of Slaanesh, being a named character, in all 4 detachments. But having 4 choices only adds to my enjoyment.

I don't want SMs to have fewer choices. But I also don't want them to be the only ones with extra choices.

Sure, some minis are restricted. Sure, some players will eschew options in order to be purists. But those are choices that should be available wherever it makes sense.

Yes, the codices may well solve this problem. They should. But the issue is that SM players have more options from day 1, AND will be the first codex.

This is a point, but not a very valid one in many cases because if we understand these detachments properly:

If you have any Blood Angels units, you can only use 2 of the 6 detachments.

If you have any Dark Angels units, you can only use 2 of the 6 detachments.

If you have any Deathwatch units, you can only use 2 of the 6 detachments.

If you have any Black Templar units, you can only use 2 of the 6 detachments.

If you have any Space Wolves units, you can only use 2 of the 6 detachments.

If you have any other Chapter specific units, you can only use 1 of the 6 detachments

So unless you are using a random grab bag of generic Space Marine models, you don't really have access to 6 detachments*. You have access to 1 or 2 of them because some unit will prevent you from using the rest of them.

So while Space Marine players will have options on detachments, it's not like most armies will actually have that many valid options to pick from.

* Historically, many First Born units could not be used in Space Wolves detachments. This could further restrict the number of detachment an army could use.

 alextroy wrote:

Hecate wrote:
I think the point isn't "Blood Angels are still Blood Angels". I think the point is, "My random assortment of SM minis have 6 detachments to choose from, whatever the detachment is called, while nobody else has this luxury."

Like, my Slaanesh army is still a Slaanesh army, but Daemons don't have 4 detachments to choose from. It's plausible to have 4 Daemon detachments I could use my Slaanesh minis in. Oh, I may not be able to take the Masque of Slaanesh, being a named character, in all 4 detachments. But having 4 choices only adds to my enjoyment.

I don't want SMs to have fewer choices. But I also don't want them to be the only ones with extra choices.

Sure, some minis are restricted. Sure, some players will eschew options in order to be purists. But those are choices that should be available wherever it makes sense.

Yes, the codices may well solve this problem. They should. But the issue is that SM players have more options from day 1, AND will be the first codex.

This is a point, but not a very valid one in many cases because if we understand these detachments properly:

If you have any Blood Angels units, you can only use 2 of the 6 detachments.

If you have any Dark Angels units, you can only use 2 of the 6 detachments.

If you have any Deathwatch units, you can only use 2 of the 6 detachments.

If you have any Black Templar units, you can only use 2 of the 6 detachments.

If you have any Space Wolves units, you can only use 2 of the 6 detachments.

If you have any other Chapter specific units, you can only use 1 of the 6 detachments

So unless you are using a random grab bag of generic Space Marine models, you don't really have access to 6 detachments*. You have access to 1 or 2 of them because some unit will prevent you from using the rest of them.

So while Space Marine players will have options on detachments, it's not like most armies will actually have that many valid options to pick from.

* Historically, many First Born units could not be used in Space Wolves detachments. This could further restrict the number of detachment an army could use.

Marines (without any supplement, FW, or Legends units) have more units than Sisters, Custodes, and Ad Mech put together.
You can very, very easily have a complete army that has access to all of them.

And, again, this is different to now... how?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And, again, this is different to now... how?

"It's bad now-so just accept it'll be bad later," is not the point I think you're trying to make, but it's the point that's coming across.

Edit: Also, most factions DO have subfactions right now.
GSC, Nids, Eldar, Votann... All have varied subfactions.

When 10th releases, they'll all drop to one detachment. Except Marines.

I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what's going on.

But, to reiterate:

Did people truly think that Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc. wouldn't get their own get-you-by rules to start the new edition? That any and all Marines would be lumped into a single set of rules and that'd be it until the Codices arrived?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what's going on.

But, to reiterate:

Did people truly think that Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc. wouldn't get their own get-you-by rules to start the new edition? That any and all Marines would be lumped into a single set of rules and that'd be it until the Codices arrived?

Was it likely? Sure.
Is it gonna happen? Now we know for sure, yes.
Does that make it sit right, that Loyalist Marines are shown blatant favoritism over every other faction in the game? No.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And, again, this is different to now... how?

Special treatment for Marines isn't new, but it's a new axis on which Marines have favor. Oh look, they get it upon launch.

Marines uber alles and so forth. Blah blah blah.

And it genuinely could be a balance issue. As I read it my custom "agnostic marines" get more detatchment and related bonus options than everybody else. Spoiled for choice, as it were.

If every 9th Edition Codex & Supplement getting a detachment for 10th Edition launch gets you hot under the collar, that is your prerogative. GW decided that it would be prudent to give the people who purchased those books a detachment for their army. A parting gift for their hard spent money. Wail away if you must, it will change nothing.

It easily could've been:

"Blood Angels are defined by their special units. If you take these special units, you are restricted to the Blood Angels detachment. If you have none of these units, you cannot take a Blood Angels detachment."

Then every SM faction has 1, and only 1, available detachment. I would not have a problem with that. You could have as many SM factions as you'd like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Better still - multiple detachments for every faction.

But that would mean fewer new releases later, so GW wouldn't make as much money. Never gonna happen.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Trying to catch up, but why does blast even exist in it's current form? IT's just 9ths version with a different font. No one ever bothered with it because no one ever used anything but MSUs. Large Model Count units are often less productive or outright inferior than smaller elite teams.

Why does blast even still exist? Just make it "ignores cover". Done.

Characters attach to squads. Buffs attach to characters. Bigger squads=bigger buffs. Less auras mean msu worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecate wrote:
It easily could've been:

"Blood Angels are defined by their special units. If you take these special units, you are restricted to the Blood Angels detachment. If you have none of these units, you cannot take a Blood Angels detachment."

Then every SM faction has 1, and only 1, available detachment. I would not have a problem with that. You could have as many SM factions as you'd like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Better still - multiple detachments for every faction.

But that would mean fewer new releases later, so GW wouldn't make as much money. Never gonna happen.

1 Detachment for all marines including chaos. No new detachments with codexes. All marine units reduced to generic 'leader, soldier, vehicle, large vehicle' profiles.

Hecate wrote:
It easily could've been:

"Blood Angels are defined by their special units. If you take these special units, you are restricted to the Blood Angels detachment. If you have none of these units, you cannot take a Blood Angels detachment."

Then every SM faction has 1, and only 1, available detachment. I would not have a problem with that. You could have as many SM factions as you'd like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Better still - multiple detachments for every faction.

But that would mean fewer new releases later, so GW wouldn't make as much money. Never gonna happen.

Ah yes, because heaven forbid that a fluffy Space wolves detachment without some flanderised unit like BauWolfRidingFangs can't be described by space wolves rules.
Makes perfect sense.

Spoletta wrote:

Hecate wrote:
It easily could've been:

"Blood Angels are defined by their special units. If you take these special units, you are restricted to the Blood Angels detachment. If you have none of these units, you cannot take a Blood Angels detachment."

Then every SM faction has 1, and only 1, available detachment. I would not have a problem with that. You could have as many SM factions as you'd like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Better still - multiple detachments for every faction.

But that would mean fewer new releases later, so GW wouldn't make as much money. Never gonna happen.

Ah yes, because heaven forbid that a fluffy Space wolves detachment without some flanderised unit like BauWolfRidingFangs can't be described by space wolves rules.
Makes perfect sense.

Space wolves are for the furries. If no bring furries, why even space wolves?

ERJAK wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Hecate wrote:
It easily could've been:

"Blood Angels are defined by their special units. If you take these special units, you are restricted to the Blood Angels detachment. If you have none of these units, you cannot take a Blood Angels detachment."

Then every SM faction has 1, and only 1, available detachment. I would not have a problem with that. You could have as many SM factions as you'd like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Better still - multiple detachments for every faction.

But that would mean fewer new releases later, so GW wouldn't make as much money. Never gonna happen.

Ah yes, because heaven forbid that a fluffy Space wolves detachment without some flanderised unit like BauWolfRidingFangs can't be described by space wolves rules.
Makes perfect sense.

Space wolves are for the furries. If no bring furries, why even space wolves?

Some people just don't have interest in Wulfen or Thunderwolves, it isn't rocket science.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Special treatment for Marines isn't new, but it's a new axis on which Marines have favor. Oh look, they get it upon launch.

Is it special treatment though?

Again: Is anyone seriously entertaining the idea that at the start of 10th there wouldn't be rules for Space Wolves or Deathwatch?

 Insectum7 wrote:
And it genuinely could be a balance issue. As I read it my custom "agnostic marines" get more detatchment and related bonus options than everybody else. Spoiled for choice, as it were.

You might notice that I'm not railing against the loss of Legions or Craftworlds, two other things I really like in 40k.

Why? Because I have hope - perhaps a foolish hope - that come the Chaos Codex, or the Eldar Codex, there will be detachments that give approximations or archetypes for various current factions. So, for example, there might not be a "Iyanden" detachment, but there might be a "Spirit Host" detachment that mixes the Battle Line roles around to Wraithguard and Wraithlords, and we go from there.

How is there still hope when gw started to Cut daemonengins because they got too many sheets for space marines in use?

It's fairly clear from where the wind blows, especially when we contextualise this.

But here, take another pile primaris lieutnants, afterall we merely got double the entries of them compared to all entries gsc has.

Is it special treatment?
Yes. 100%.