Switch Theme:

Did mk4 make any difference?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




chaos0xomega wrote:

In my experience - no they don't. Setting up, organizing, and running events and building a community is hard work, for those that do it well its like a second full time job. I don't know anyone who truly does it for free for any game on a long term basis, most people I've find that start doing it either find a way to get compensation for it or quit if they don't. Locally, the only community organizers at my local stores are all getting paid out for the effort one way or another, even for 40k.


In my experience they absolutely do. I've never seen any people who organise events, locally or country-wide for any system earn any money out of it. This is also true for huge international events held in Poland (like ETC or WTC).

This is just people passionate with the game and the community who want to see them both grow so that they never run out of people to play their favourite game with. It was as true 25years ago for huge WFB tournaments as it is now for all types of games, GW or not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/07 09:31:01


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 aphyon wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:

As much as losing the PG was a loss, I've never considered it that big of a deal. The free stuff was a nice perk, but if that's what it took for people to sell the game... IDK, most games have people that do that work actually for free.


In my experience - no they don't. Setting up, organizing, and running events and building a community is hard work, for those that do it well its like a second full time job. I don't know anyone who truly does it for free for any game on a long term basis, most people I've find that start doing it either find a way to get compensation for it or quit if they don't. Locally, the only community organizers at my local stores are all getting paid out for the effort one way or another, even for 40k.


It is indeed lots of work, that is basically what i have been doing since 2008 when i took over the Saturday late night gaming volunteer position at my FLGS. although i do not run tournaments anymore, i just set up for pre-planned games. The reason why our store does so well and attracts players from all over (some people drive up to an hour just to get there) is the community. It is in a way a full days work that is also a funs days work. i bring a full car load of extra gaming aids, terrain, and even minis or armies for people to use. My compensation is having a space to play all day long (usually from 2pm to sometime after 3am) and hang out with fellow gamers. the game system being played doesn't matter. people at the store play a couple dozen different game systems.



And that's a big point why companies need a rep system specific to them. If someone is running a local club or store on their own; they've no loyalty to any one game system.
They'll run with what's popular at the store or with whatever game(s) they want to promote. They might be a die hard Infinity fan for 9 months and then decide they want to focus on Malifaux. If the local scene also shifts they are more than happy, but it means they'll stop putting as much effort into the Infinity. If no one else takes up the torch that club could see a drift from Infinity to Maifaux.

That's 100% great and fine for the gamers, but it means Infinity loses out on sales from that group.

However if the local person is invested as a rep for a specific firm there's more pressure/incentive on them to keep that game going. At the very least to ensure it remains supported and such.



A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Knight of the Inner Circle






The strangest thing I find about this thread is the fact that many people are saying they have similar experiences about the game and are located everywhere, I would imagine pockets of good locations and bad. But when you get the same results basically globally of bad experiences with your game, I would think a game company would take notice and start trying to figure out ways to address those problems. But one thing I think that really hurt MK4 was at one point at the end of MK3 everything was on clearance everywhere and even PP had a ton of discounted stuff, people that still collected bought up everything they wanted at dirt cheap prices.

 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





 Genoside07 wrote:
The strangest thing I find about this thread is the fact that many people are saying they have similar experiences about the game and are located everywhere, I would imagine pockets of good locations and bad. But when you get the same results basically globally of bad experiences with your game, I would think a game company would take notice and start trying to figure out ways to address those problems. But one thing I think that really hurt MK4 was at one point at the end of MK3 everything was on clearance everywhere and even PP had a ton of discounted stuff, people that still collected bought up everything they wanted at dirt cheap prices.


Did you even read the thread? Not everyone had bad experiences, quite a few have disagreed with it. There has always been a subset of gamers crying about "cheese" or how broken this, that or the other is and they really hat warmachines competitive nature.

You need to remember most players with good experiences have moved on. This forum is a ghost town now, so you're getting a very small and bias view on things. Players who had good experiences but moved on to other games aren't checking threads like these. Horror stories get repeated but good experiences stay mostly in the mind.
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

My bad experiences were with the hard core steamroller players. the group we play with now are casuals so we still have fun with WM/H MKIII. we just purposely avoid doing things that makes the game not fun like steam roller, theme lists, certain powerful combos (the forsaken delivery system for legion is a glaring one). and games over 50 points. we also from time to time enjoy playing WHFB style infantry machine with no casters/warlocks, battle engines or jacks/beasts. just ranks of infantry.





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench






As an interested but cautious ex-player who didn't experience any horror stories, Mark IV seems a bit of a missed opportunity in that it wiggles Warmachine further into its niche.

I understand that a big part of the appeal for the player base was tight rules and tournament play, but like aphyon above describes, I really wanted to see how the tight mechanics could be used in more interesting, exploratory and narrative ways such as games without 'jacks and Warcasters; with looser restrictions on what could be taken, and so forth. All of that could have been included by having more 'game modes' – a complement (and narrative-based opposite) to Steamroller, for example.

As I understand things (and as noted I haven't been keeping up to date since they closed their forum) Privateer Press have flirted with model-based semi-role-playing games – it's a shame Mark IV didn't fold something like that in (develop a journeyman Warcaster into an Epic one, perhaps).

It's a shame – to me at least – that they've doubled-down on restrictive tournament-based competition, rather than taking the opportunity to invite in more than existing players (who, from what I can see, are a bit miffed that many of their models have been permanently mothballed).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/08 11:48:24


+Death of a Rubricist+
My miniature painting blog.
 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





 Apologist wrote:
As an interested but cautious ex-player who didn't experience any horror stories, Mark IV seems a bit of a missed opportunity in that it wiggles Warmachine further into its niche.

I understand that a big part of the appeal for the player base was tight rules and tournament play, but like aphyon above describes, I really wanted to see how the tight mechanics could be used in more interesting, exploratory and narrative ways such as games without 'jacks and Warcasters; with looser restrictions on what could be taken, and so forth. All of that could have been included by having more 'game modes' – a complement (and narrative-based opposite) to Steamroller, for example.

As I understand things (and as noted I haven't been keeping up to date since they closed their forum) Privateer Press have flirted with model-based semi-role-playing games – it's a shame Mark IV didn't fold something like that in (develop a journeyman Warcaster into an Epic one, perhaps).

It's a shame – to me at least – that they've doubled-down on restrictive tournament-based competition, rather than taking the opportunity to invite in more than existing players (who, from what I can see, are a bit miffed that many of their models have been permanently mothballed).


Do you need official sanctions to ask your friends if they want to do a 35 point game with no warcasters?
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




PP have been releasing narrative and campaign content for years. It's just that you hardly heard about anyone being interested in it or playing it (maybe people did in their basements, but who knows?) And it's not like this content was particularly compelling or well designed.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I haven't personally paid for the subscription service in the Mk4 app, but people that have have been pretty happy with the narrative game content it provides.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yo7 wrote:


Do you need official sanctions to ask your friends if they want to do a 35 point game with no warcasters?


He's not wrong.

Technically folks don't need permission to play 'outside' the rules. That is correct.

But its not that easy, is it?

one thing you'll find in the wargaming community as a whole is a lot of folks are conservative by nature and most wont step out of officialdom. Folks will present a strong and often pathological desire to adhere to the 'official' and 'proper' ways of playing, as defined by the rulebook. And this 'default' mode of play can be quite narrow in scope.

If its not a 'proper' game mode, folks often won't even hear you out when you request a 'not-proper' game. That's the simple truth. As gw learned with '3 ways to play' having this codified in the rulebook confers legitimacy to game modes that would otherwise be largely dismissed out of hand. Whilst me and my group just do our own thing anyway, plenty other groups don't have that luxury.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/08 14:43:02


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench






Yo7 wrote:
Do you need official sanctions to ask your friends if they want to do a 35 point game with no warcasters?

No, I don't – but a significant portion of people that I play with are considerably more conservative and less happy to make things up. They prefer the comfort of the writers' permission – and I don't fundamentally disagree with that urge. A simple box-out that says 'Warmachine is intended as a competitive fast-paced brawl set in the key moments of larger battles – but if you want to explore a larger-scale experience of warfare in the Iron Kingdoms, or simply want to see whether you can come back from a Warcaster kill, why not try a game of [X] Mode? Here are the simple modifications we've found keep the game fun and exciting for both players:
* The game doesn't end on Warcaster death , but on [X] condition
* etc.


(or whatever)
...would be simple to add, require little or no additional work on the designer's behalf, and go a small way to broadening the appeal.

Time is precious, particularly gaming time; and the more spent discussing what we want from any particular game, the less time spent actually playing. This is particularly important for our group, as we're all getting older and have less free time. If someone – either PP themselves or the community at large (because Warmachine does have history on its side) – has worked out fun alternate game modes, why not include them to make things easier and more appealing to casually interested gamers, or those who want an easy road to try it out?

At the moment, speaking as an potentially interested outsider, Warmachine doesn't seem to want to be a broad church for all tabletop wargaming styles – Privateer Press seem happy to appeal to a niche with Mark IV. Contrast this, as Deadnight says, with GW's 'three ways of gaming' (Matched, Narrative, Open) to basically create a shorthand for different groups of tabletop wargamers to find games that they'll enjoy – and expand the appeal of their flagship game.


That's fine – but it's not going to revive the 'glory years' of Warmachine.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/08 15:06:46


+Death of a Rubricist+
My miniature painting blog.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Honestly, most of the official content for Mk4 has been narrative. Even at conventions, the main attractions have been these really excellent event scenarios and most of their news articles are about elements that the competitive community is pretty resistant to (interactive terrain). You're likingly not hearing much about because the community has such a tendency to ignore anything that isn't about winning the next Steamroller, but some of the new content providers are starting to really have fun with this kind of stuff and get the word out.

The lack of non-competitive content in Warmachine has always been something of a vicious cycle. There's more of it out there right now then there's been in years and if that's what you'd like to see, I'd absolutely recommend giving it a try. Feed the beast you want to grow and all that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/08 15:37:52


 
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench






Thanks for the heads-up – I'm more than happy to be corrected!

I used to haunt the PP official forum for discussion and news; is there anywhere equivalent these days you'd recommend to have a look at?

+Death of a Rubricist+
My miniature painting blog.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

Deadnight wrote:


If its not a 'proper' game mode, folks often won't even hear you out when you request a 'not-proper' game. That's the simple truth. As gw learned with '3 ways to play' having this codified in the rulebook confers legitimacy to game modes that would otherwise be largely dismissed out of hand. Whilst me and my group just do our own thing anyway, plenty other groups don't have that luxury.


What three ways to play demonstrated is that gamers will self-order into a "tiered" system with each of the three ways to play being ranked on a scale of officiality based on perceived levels of balance and actual levels of competitiveness, with matched play (specifically matched play following the latest Chapter Approved/GT Mission Pack) being seen as the most officalist and legitimate way to play, followed by Matched Play (without CA/GT Mission Pack), followed distantly by Narrative play, with Open play bringing up the distant rear (so much so that 10e appears to have dropped Open Play and moved it to just Matched and Narrative play).

Three ways to play also added to complexity, product/brand confusion, and effectively split the player base along preferred lines of play, instead of doing the sensible thing which most other games do and develop a system that might appeal to all players equally.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





 LunarSol wrote:
Honestly, most of the official content for Mk4 has been narrative. Even at conventions, the main attractions have been these really excellent event scenarios and most of their news articles are about elements that the competitive community is pretty resistant to (interactive terrain). You're likingly not hearing much about because the community has such a tendency to ignore anything that isn't about winning the next Steamroller, but some of the new content providers are starting to really have fun with this kind of stuff and get the word out.

The lack of non-competitive content in Warmachine has always been something of a vicious cycle. There's more of it out there right now then there's been in years and if that's what you'd like to see, I'd absolutely recommend giving it a try. Feed the beast you want to grow and all that.


Am I the only one remembering No quarter being full of narrative stuff and scenarios? I swear I used to see it a lot.

I still don't understand why it's difficult to arrange no caster games. It takes 5 minutes to arrange and with all of today's social techs it's even easier. Send a group message asking if any one fancies a no caster game a couple of days in advance of game night or ask to do it next week at a game night. There's always one weird guy looking to home brew scenarios up for it.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Honestly? In my experience playing without a caster just strips out the interesting decisions from the game and turns it into a very dull move and roll kind of affair. Without the ability to tilt the 2D6 curve in your favor through buffs and the like, there's not a lot that makes the game interesting outside of the setting and in that context I find it a lot more fun to interact with via the RPG systems (particularly the pre-5E edition that uses a similar combat engine to the Wargame).

FWIW, this is also why I've had significantly more fun with smaller point games. It results in less of the boring mechanical interactions and a greater emphasis on the unique resource driven aspects of the game.

All that said, its absolutely worth trying for yourself and if you really like it, absolutely go for it. In particular, check out the recent additions of interactive terrain. I think it can create some really solid table designs for that kind of scenario.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Apologist wrote:
Thanks for the heads-up – I'm more than happy to be corrected!

I used to haunt the PP official forum for discussion and news; is there anywhere equivalent these days you'd recommend to have a look at?


PP actually reopened their forums, but I don't think they've been hugely popular. Just not a lot of people signing up for new forums these days. I would recommend looking into Tried and True. They've got a mix of content on YouTube, a Podcast, Facebook, Discord etc and have been building a community with a pretty fresh take on Mk4 with a good mix of playstyles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/08 16:04:34


 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

aphyon wrote:My bad experiences were with the hard core steamroller players.

They were the ones who drove most of the casuals back to 40K when their 8th Edition dropped, Sigmar when the General's Handbook dropped, or X-Wing for those who liked competitive games without the hobby horse.

I don't know if the ones meeting up right now locally are still the hard core steamrollers who didn't give up, or the casuals who actually took it back.

Yo7 wrote:Do you need official sanctions to ask your friends if they want to do a 35 point game with no warcasters?

When someone tells you, "We only play Steamroller here.", one gets the idea that a game format being officially sanctioned is the only way you'll get a game. Of course, that was over 7 years ago when they told me that, and I have no idea what they're doing now as I'm at a better store and game format now.

LunarSol wrote:The lack of non-competitive content in Warmachine has always been something of a vicious cycle. There's more of it out there right now then there's been in years and if that's what you'd like to see, I'd absolutely recommend giving it a try. Feed the beast you want to grow and all that.

You mean non-competitive content your local people will play with, right? Because there was A LOT of narrative/non-competitive stuff in Mk 2 and Mk 3. It was like pulling teeth to get people to recognize that locally, though.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





 Charistoph wrote:
aphyon wrote:My bad experiences were with the hard core steamroller players.

They were the ones who drove most of the casuals back to 40K when their 8th Edition dropped, Sigmar when the General's Handbook dropped, or X-Wing for those who liked competitive games without the hobby horse.

I don't know if the ones meeting up right now locally are still the hard core steamrollers who didn't give up, or the casuals who actually took it back.

Yo7 wrote:Do you need official sanctions to ask your friends if they want to do a 35 point game with no warcasters?

When someone tells you, "We only play Steamroller here.", one gets the idea that a game format being officially sanctioned is the only way you'll get a game. Of course, that was over 7 years ago when they told me that, and I have no idea what they're doing now as I'm at a better store and game format now.

LunarSol wrote:The lack of non-competitive content in Warmachine has always been something of a vicious cycle. There's more of it out there right now then there's been in years and if that's what you'd like to see, I'd absolutely recommend giving it a try. Feed the beast you want to grow and all that.

You mean non-competitive content your local people will play with, right? Because there was A LOT of narrative/non-competitive stuff in Mk 2 and Mk 3. It was like pulling teeth to get people to recognize that locally, though.


There's nothing wrong with competitive people wanting to play a game competitively. I'm not a competitive player myself but I've played with plenty who are in all types of games. I've never found them drive any one out of the game. While I've personally left plenty of game communities because the casual player base were to put it nicely.. complete and utter tossers. I've never seen any group of gamers more whiny and outright hostile to new ideas than 'casual' players. I've seen so many way too invested in the meta of the game and barely touching a model. Suggesting a rule get cleaned up or some factions need adjusting because they barely function and you're met with tirades of "Just home brew it with our pay walled custom army maker" from 5 different people. They're absolutely terrified of any sort of structure to help support competitive or even random pick up games despite it being something they personally could just ignore.

Competitive groups usually filter out the worst people with sportsmanship awards, needing training partners and being a small and rather well known group doing it. You can't be competitive if you don't turn up. It generally leads to play hard but do it above board and in a friendly way communities forming. While casual groups have zero gate keeping to the worst behaviour and often spiral into circle jerks of the worst possible people since they invest the most time on things outside the game.

This could be a UK thing and the way we approach competition vs the American way of approaching it. But its an attitude I've seen become way more toxic than the competitive scene generally is. Terminally online casuals with upvotes terrified someone might play the game in a way they don't like and possibly change it to be a tighter, more competitive rule set. I miss the days where home brew at your own home was normal and accepted while shops and clubs represented a more structured play area. Felt like the best of both worlds for everyone involved. The internet seems to have ruined both sides of that.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

Yo7 wrote:
There's nothing wrong with competitive people wanting to play a game competitively. I'm not a competitive player myself but I've played with plenty who are in all types of games. I've never found them drive any one out of the game. While I've personally left plenty of game communities because the casual player base were to put it nicely.. complete and utter tossers. I've never seen any group of gamers more whiny and outright hostile to new ideas than 'casual' players. I've seen so many way too invested in the meta of the game and barely touching a model. Suggesting a rule get cleaned up or some factions need adjusting because they barely function and you're met with tirades of "Just home brew it with our pay walled custom army maker" from 5 different people. They're absolutely terrified of any sort of structure to help support competitive or even random pick up games despite it being something they personally could just ignore.

There's being competitive, and then there is gating the game off from anyone who is either new or wanting to explore other formats.

When I hit the table, I like to give it my all. However, I'm not the type that set up a "bring a tournament list or nothing" attitude that affected both the 40K community (from 5th through 7th) and the WarMaHordes community (Mk II and Mk III) locally for a time.

Meanwhile in my Battletech group, we're trying all sorts of scenarios and perfectly willing to toss crazy ones aside to help people learn the game. A far different attitude from what I received from the 40K and WMH folks here.

Yo7 wrote:
Competitive groups usually filter out the worst people with sportsmanship awards, needing training partners and being a small and rather well known group doing it. You can't be competitive if you don't turn up. It generally leads to play hard but do it above board and in a friendly way communities forming. While casual groups have zero gate keeping to the worst behaviour and often spiral into circle jerks of the worst possible people since they invest the most time on things outside the game.

That doesn't work if there are no sportsmanship awards, or in the times between tournaments which, again, have no sportsmanship awards, and/or people use all of for "tournament training" (hence, the "tournament list or nothing" crowd). There's a certain level of toxicity when you aren't getting a game until you've spent a month's rent on models.

And then there are the ones who prey on new people between tournaments and treat "competition" as justification for being an a. Hopefully they get caught, but a fair few have been subtle about it.

Yo7 wrote:
This could be a UK thing and the way we approach competition vs the American way of approaching it. But its an attitude I've seen become way more toxic than the competitive scene generally is. Terminally online casuals with upvotes terrified someone might play the game in a way they don't like and possibly change it to be a tighter, more competitive rule set. I miss the days where home brew at your own home was normal and accepted while shops and clubs represented a more structured play area. Felt like the best of both worlds for everyone involved. The internet seems to have ruined both sides of that.

It's probably an American thing. Too many here take competition very seriously. But I've yet to see a casual group do any notable level of gatekeeping here. It's always the "tournament-only" crowd which does.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yo7 wrote:

There's nothing wrong with competitive people wanting to play a game competitively.
.




I’d add the caveat that whilst there’s nothing wrong with competitive people wanting to play a game competitively with each other, this is a ‘time and place’ thing and very much something everyone needs to consent to. Bring a bleeding edge list into a group with ‘grass league’ level lists, and yes, you have a problem. Neither is necessarily a ‘wrong’ approach, but its probably going to make a lot of folks bitter.

Remember, we are all heroes in our own stories. None of us see ourselves as a bad guy. But you don't hsve to be a bad guy to be a villain in someone else's story.

Yo7 wrote:


I'm not a competitive player myself but I've played with plenty who are in all types of games. I've never found them drive any one out of the game.



Sadly, I have. I’ve met some fantastic folks who played competitively. I’ve also met some fantastic folks who are only interested in the casual scene. Almost like decent folks ecist in both camps. I’ve also seen one competitive player destroy a game in a city, entirely through their own efforts. I've known one toxic casual at all cost player - on these forums. Check out 'traditio'. His posts are a hoot. But I doubt his approach would destroy a community, it would just be a target for ridicule.

In several countries Ive lived in, ive been the guy who walked away because of the insistence of competitive players playing ‘their game’ at the expense of mine and everyone else. Played with too many 40k players back in the day who never valued anything less than the S-tier builds and were never willing to consider or accommodate any other approaches. Frankly, it gets tiresome getting stomped on all the time and the game gets incredibly stale when you only ever see the same old 'practicing for a tourney' power builds all the time and play the same few tournament scenarios the whole time. I walked away. Respectfully let them do their thing, but the whole thing led me to leaving 40k for years. Similarly, whilst anecdotes aren’t data, and since this is a wmh sub board, theres a lot of them out there of folks driven off, or never made welcome by the ultra competitive ‘rump’ WMH community.

Remember, playing ‘competitively’ (as its generally understood in the context of wargaming ie ‘list-building-for-advantage’ etc) and ‘wanting a fair game’ are often mutually exclusive.

Yo7 wrote:


While I've personally left plenty of game communities because the casual player base were to put it nicely.. complete and utter tossers. I've never seen any group of gamers more whiny and outright hostile to new ideas than 'casual' players. I've seen so many way too invested in the meta of the game and barely touching a model. Suggesting a rule get cleaned up or some factions need adjusting because they barely function and you're met with tirades of "Just home brew it with our pay walled custom army maker" from 5 different people. They're absolutely terrified of any sort of structure to help support competitive or even random pick up games despite it being something they personally could just ignore.

.


The opposite of competitive isn’t casual. Its non-competitive. The opposite of casual is serious.

And I dunno… but what you describe here - I mean, being ‘way too invested in the meta’ and ‘casual’ seems like a contradiction in terms to me. ‘Casual’ to me reads as ‘less invested’ and ‘less serious’. What you describe reads less ‘casual’ and more generally ‘toxic’ to me.

Yo7 wrote:


Competitive groups usually filter out the worst people with sportsmanship awards, needing training partners and being a small and rather well known group doing it. You can't be competitive if you don't turn up. It generally leads to play hard but do it above board and in a friendly way communities forming. While casual groups have zero gate keeping to the worst behaviour and often spiral into circle jerks of the worst possible people since they invest the most time on things outside the game.

.


I’ve often found the opposite. Back when I played tournaments, sportsmanship was simply a thing competitives gave 0 for every time, under the premise of ‘why would I give other players points’. It wasn’t seen as an incentive, merely another weapon to bludgeon opponents with. Similarly, there was always a predatory ‘edge’ with competitive groups in that, functionally, you turn up with a meta list, or you’re prey. You can’t be competitive if you don’t turn up, thing is, even if you turn up, you’ll often find yourself just being a scalp unless you have the £££ to chase and keep up with the meta, but when you’re coming back with a 10-year old space wolf army that’s completely out of sync with the meta, or simply dont hsve the time to maintain that levrl of 'fitness' because of life (career, wife, kids, pets, sports, other commitments etc) they aint gonna accommodate. They wont hold your hand or pull their punches. I’ve seen plenty awfully toxic behaviour amongst competitive types (I mean Win at all cost and competitive at all cost is a thing as well) so saying competitive filters out the worst people and the worst behaviours is just plain old false. It selects for particular behaviours and attitudes and without restraint or emotional maturity can rapidly toxify.The ultimate problem with competitive play is its an approach that leaves a lot of wreckage in its wake, and a hell of a lot of things are sacrificed on the competitive altar, and to a lot of folks, these sacrifices simply cost too much to be worth it. Competitive aldo has a lot of hidden costs associated.

And for what its worth, We definitely play more ‘casually’ than anything (with fully painted armies, fyi) and I can absolutely guarantee you since its in our houses, we ain’t inviting tossers into our midst. More casual gaming has saved my love of this hobby for what it's worth. I've burned out twice from the competitive scene. It has its place but it shouldn't be seen as an 'aspiration' or the ultimate expression of the game.

Yo7 wrote:


This could be a UK thing and the way we approach competition vs the American way of approaching it. But its an attitude I've seen become way more toxic than the competitive scene generally is. Terminally online casuals with upvotes terrified someone might play the game in a way they don't like and possibly change it to be a tighter, more competitive rule set. I miss the days where home brew at your own home was normal and accepted while shops and clubs represented a more structured play area. Felt like the best of both worlds for everyone involved. The internet seems to have ruined both sides of that.




Whilst I prefer ‘clean’ rules myself, and presumably like yourself, value balance ill add the caveat that i dont dislike imbalance provided the gsne itself is 'interesting'. The problem is that to a lot of folks, that tighter, more competitive rule set becomes very bland and sterile, very fast. They’re not necessarily wrong. A lot of choices and options and 'flavour' folks value often gets boiled out. 'Practicing for a tourney' selects for only a tiny amount of builds and whilst we've all.seen loads of narrative scenarios in no quarter and the gw publications, the tourney pack missions mean the rest often might as well not exist. I won't lie - I did end up getting tired of the symmetrical and supremely abstract wmh 'grab the geometric shape and incorporeal flags in the middle of the board' type scenarios very quickly.

And I'd also add- imo at least, often its not so much folks being terrified someone might play the game in a way they don’t like (but that is often the narrative that is presented as a retort), its more a case of 'so long as it stays in its own lane, its fine'. folks who play (or who want to play) in a casual environment often get annoyed because folks playing it 'in a way they dont like' often comes directly at their expense when those competitive-minded players bring their game where its not wanted, and are often uncaring of the consequences, how others feel (you know, 'git good' and ‘who are you to be telling me what I can take in MY ARMY’), and where it becomes destructive to the gaming ecosystem as a result. Its less toxic and more exhasperation, a lot of the time.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2023/06/14 08:39:42


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Sad news - PP are ending production of ALL classic Warmachine and Hordes models end of this week

https://home.privateerpress.com/2023/06/13/legacy-model-production-ending

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

Then maybe my old Mercenaries collection might be worth something in a decade.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hopefully more than an average Chronopia collection
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

Well i am glad i got my Khador army done, i bought the last of it when they started talking about MK IV. No need to worry about discontinued models now.





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 aphyon wrote:
Well i am glad i got my Khador army done, i bought the last of it when they started talking about MK IV. No need to worry about discontinued models now.


Same.

Second hand markets from now on!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/14 10:02:28


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




So squashing production of Legacy before all Legacy armies and models have rules?

How will new players get hold of legacy models other than ebay? Not a great look for the game.

Stopping production is the step before removing legacy models from official play entirely.

Only a few models and units available for any of the Nu-Factions. Most of the production has yet to hit stores. The timeline and updates shows the factions will arrive "at some point in the future, probably, trust us guys".

What a fantastic move by PP. This will really encourage old players to come back and new players to get involved.

Its just over, isn't it?
   
Made in fr
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Legacy armies aren't aimed for new players. They are as name suggest legacy. Provide use for existing armies. Not start new ones.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sunno wrote:


What a fantastic move by PP. This will really encourage old players to come back and new players to get involved.

Its just over, isn't it?


Devils advocate. It won't nrcessarily hurt new players. Being cynical they're being hurt by the slow release.

It's the 'age of sigmar' scorched-earth approach sunno.

I'd argue they might not actually want those 'old players' with 'old armies'. PP might see that 'rump' community as fundamentally toxic and not worth saving. They might see them as fundamentally problematic to the 'new' game. They might want 'new' players. Buying 'new' armies. A 'new' community.They might see the legacy stuff as a millstone round their necks and just want to be rid of it so they can move on.

And I mean... look at aos now. From a business pov, it was the right move. Could be pp's interpretation of how to do it.

Or I might be completely off track- like I said, devils advocate.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Thing is AoS didn't need the scorched earth approach. If anything it actually drastically damaged its growth in its first year or two. All it really needed was a rules system and approach that wasn't built around need 100001 models on the table per side to get a good game.

A lot of that could have been achieved even within the rank and file system or introducing a rank and file for say 800+points and then a skirmishing point system before that etc..


Heck a good many AoS armies today are just Old World models and armies.




GW's move was based on short sighted and confused management interpretation sales and user data with limited user feedback. It was honestly a mistake which is why they had to change things around drastically for 2.0.


PP's move is more of a case that their operation has suffered a significant loss of income forcing them to change to a new production method. They are also moving factories and sites and basically PP just don't have the manpower nor financial support to keep their old stock casting; esp when resin and esp metal prices have gone way up.

Basically they are changing because they don't have resources to not change. They have had some setbacks - Warcaster not taking off during the pandemic; the utter mess of Monster Apoc boardgame that might end up being mothballed and a huge PR disaster and is not their fault. Warmachine and Hordes being a messy spot and having been so for a long time.

PP is cleaning house because they are being evicted to a bungalow. We just have to hope that MKIV or MKV manages to pull things around; though they do honestly seem to also have had a long run of poor/bad/missguided management choices.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in ca
Dipping With Wood Stain






Once their key marketing staff quit to start Atomic Mass Games, PP was finished.
That was a lot of good talent to lose and they’ve never recovered.
They need better marketing and management but at this point I’d be surprised if wasn’t already too late for that.
   
 
Forum Index » Privateer Press Miniature Games (Warmachine & Hordes)
Go to: