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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

I am in the process of creating the campaign map for my slice of the 40k universe. I intend to make it (within 40k limits, anyway) somewhat realistic, at least in the sense that inhabited planets will be few.

That's not to say that Orks and Nids and all the rest aren't still raging everywhere, its just that in Helstrom Subsector, there are few inhabited world, or even those capable of supporting life. Most of the battles here will be fought as boarding actions, on space stations, or possibly in dome cities or underworld structures where mining takes place.

The reason for this is twofold.

First, I think boarding actions and naval battles are a lot of fun. I didn't think much of BFG, but I might dust off Spacefleet for some major battles, and I will certainly be doing 40k fights on starships, and in mining complexes, etc.

Second, I've always been kind of fascinated with what war in outer space might actually look like.

There are probably very good reasons why we'll never find out. Is there anything valuable out there? Columbus wasn't trying to boldly go where no man has gone before, he was trying to get to China, so he could get rich. Is there really anything out there valuable enough to make us go and 1. Take it, then 2. Take it away from other humans who've already taken it?

Now, are we likely to meet Orks, Romulans or Minbari to fight with for it? I think this is also fairly unlikely. Certainly, they don't seem to have visited us, at least not openly or any too often. If they have, they really only seem to be interested in rectal probing, but I don't wanna to think about that.

But even if the Klingons or whoever are out there, what's the likelihood that there is anything on other worlds worth fighting over? Is there anything, even the most precious of minerals that would be worth the cost of transporting across interstellar distances, even if it is possible to find some form of FTL travel?

What about elbow room? I think this is even less likely. From all I've read (and I admit I'm no scholar on the subject) the likelihood that earthlike worlds exist elsewhere is fairly remote, and even if they do, the chances of so many things being even a little off (too much solar radiation, surface temperature, composition of the atmosphere, etc.) are too great. We either couldn't terraform them, or it wouldn't be cost effective to do so.

---

But I'd like to be wrong about all of the above. Please convince me that I am.

Anyway, I thought a simple way of making this semi-realistic might be to assume that we do find elements worth mining, and build space stations to carry that stuff back to earth. Most of the battles are fought in deep space by the Imperial Fleet and rogue traders against Orks, Nids, Necrons or whatever

This:

https://www.deviantart.com/rodrigo-vega/art/The-Wheel-of-Fortune-a-Sci-fi-One-Page-Dungeon-849695324

From One Page Dungeon Contest is a well written, simple space station that could have been constructed in many different solar systems in pre-Imperial times for trade and exploration purposes. It is well done (though it takes careful reading) but it is a very neat one page adventure that could easily be adapted for use in many star systems I plan on making multiple copies, modifying each. Some will be well run Imperial establishments, some pirate bases, some basically abandoned "space dungeons." For a few changes a lot of mileage could be had, and, after all, a prefabricated space station that ended up being modified by circumstances would probably be just what would develop.

My only real change will be to change the scale of the thing into something more fitting to the Imperium. I was thinking that each square on the map would represent ten kilometers rather than forty feet, so lots of adventuring and minis battles could take place.

BTW, how do I post my little map (it isn't much, I just want to give an idea of what I'm doing) to Dakka? As near as I can tell, I can't directly post a graphics file here. Do I have to out it on photobucket or something, and post a link? Thanks.

First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Fireknife Shas'el





Leicester

The thing people often overlook is that if a civilisation has reached the point where interstellar travel is a practical proposition, it will actually represent only a fraction of their technological and industrial capacity; for example even the Apollo programme was only about 2.5% of the GDP of the USA at the time.

Barring any radical technological breakthrough (e.g. Zefram Cochrane), the most likely route to that point is basically the one we are on; incremental improvements in propulsion and life support technology to allow us to exploit the resources within the solar system. I think the Expanse is a pretty good example of what that would look like in a century or two. At that point, humans are comfortable in living and working in space, we’ve developed medical or technical solutions to deal with the big hazards (e.g. radiation) and the same propulsion systems that can get you around the solar system in efficient times (say nuclear fusion rockets) can also get you to the nearest stars in a practical timescale (a decade or two; see also Avatar).

Now, whether those planets are 100% Earth compatible is probably a moot point, as you’ll have the technology and culture to live in space colonies, at which point even an near Earth environment is actually substantially more habitable than what you’re used to. Again, look at Avatar; ok, you can’t breathe without a mask, but you won’t instantly die without an environment suit, producing the Earth-normal atmosphere inside the colony is probably a case of filtration rather than having to create it wholescale and you have abundant water, food and other resources that you can just go and pick up from outside.

DS:80+S+GM+B+I+Pw40k08D+A++WD355R+T(M)DM+
 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Given not every solar system is going to have Earthlike Planets, you may end up with something kind of resembling a medieval country.

By that I mean some dense population centres (Earth like worlds), smaller population centres producing food and foods (techno buildings providing a rest space for space-miners etc) and……not a lot else. Roads linking them would be akin to modern day shipping lanes, just in space.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Worth bearing in mind that habitable planets are likely to be earth-like with regions of different climates rather than single biome ice planets/desert planets/temperate forest planets etc.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






If you have the time give these a watch:

Dr. Simon Clark and Dr. Hannah Wakeford go over a bunch of planets from 40k and explain whether or not they could exist. The long and short of it is that as long as real science is applied (that thing GW doesn't know a whole lot about) then a lot of 40k planets are possible. Not that weird Slaaneshi giant man planet though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/05/30 16:59:05


 
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

It'll depend a lot on the planet itself. If it's capable of sustaining life then it'll probably be very Earth like already and humanity won't need to adapt much. If it differs, then we'll adapt over time.

For instance, lower gravity will make people taller, higher gravity shorter.

Inhabitable planets may already have inhabitants, who'll have suitably adapted.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

Great responses all. Sadly, I'm exhausted at the moment, but will reply to them tomorrow.

Good gaming to you all 'til then!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just one thing now (couldn't resist) the idea that even a very earthlike planet so similar to earth as to be bizarre is still likely to be deadly to earthmen, even if only in small details.

Remember that even on earth, the "aliens" from Europe came close to wiping out the North American natives (not so much the South Americans, interestingly enough) simply because the vastly higher populations of Europe, Asia and Africa had developed highly infectious diseases that had to adapt as quickly as the humans adapted. When they reached the natives on this side of the pond, they were like lambs to the slaughter.

And all that was on the same planet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/01 01:38:57


First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 Jadenim wrote:
The thing people often overlook is that if a civilisation has reached the point where interstellar travel is a practical proposition, it will actually represent only a fraction of their technological and industrial capacity; for example even the Apollo programme was only about 2.5% of the GDP of the USA at the time.

Barring any radical technological breakthrough (e.g. Zefram Cochrane), the most likely route to that point is basically the one we are on; incremental improvements in propulsion and life support technology to allow us to exploit the resources within the solar system. I think the Expanse is a pretty good example of what that would look like in a century or two. At that point, humans are comfortable in living and working in space, we’ve developed medical or technical solutions to deal with the big hazards (e.g. radiation) and the same propulsion systems that can get you around the solar system in efficient times (say nuclear fusion rockets) can also get you to the nearest stars in a practical timescale (a decade or two; see also Avatar).


Fusion is too weak for interstellar travel in such time-frames. You need antimatter, and a lot of it.
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

Remember that even on earth, the "aliens" from Europe came close to wiping out the North American natives (not so much the South Americans, interestingly enough) simply because the vastly higher populations of Europe, Asia and Africa had developed highly infectious diseases that had to adapt as quickly as the humans adapted. When they reached the natives on this side of the pond, they were like lambs to the slaughter.

And all that was on the same planet.


Good point. It's almost certain that any interaction between different origins of biological life forms would result in some horrible disease spread, unless the side without the exposure was already immune or just unaffected. Like a human can't catch tail-rot from a fish, and a cockroach seems immune to everything.
   
Made in ca
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Monarchy of TBD

Biologically, it makes far more sense to remain on one planet as an individual. Leaving a planet behind almost immediately starts your body adapting to the new environment- dna alterations, bone density loss, cosmic radiation- and that's without the influence of the warp. The Expanse really does a great job of showing that our bodies will adapt to the environment, and within a few generations, whatever environment we've adapted to is the only one we can occupy. The space travelers, the Belters, can't endure full gravity any longer. Compared to them, those born down a well are incredibly clumsy in low g environments.

What you'd end up with in your scenario, a poorly populated frontier sector, is likely prospectors, farmers, miners, and raw material collectors. These aren't typically any different than the other 1,000s of worlds in the imperium, but the workers work more cheaply. Traders deal in advanced technology and luxury goods (I'd imagine cybernetics and medical personnel would be especially prized, considering the safety precautions these frontiersfolk will be bypassing to make a profit). Think age of sail colonial economy. Piracy, banditry, and general lawlessness will be a lowlevel background hum. With overall populations low, and little need to fight over land, conflicts will be frequent, and low intensity. You might even find some small escort vessels working as mercenaries/protection rackets.

Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
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Mercurial wrote:
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Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.

 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Doesn't 40K have artificial gravity on board ships?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

A small nitpick. Why would battles be fought in deep space? There is nothing of value there and it is really hard to interdict a space fleet in space. Instead, all the fighting should be near things that people actually want.

40K allows deep space fighting a bit more because there are known routes via the Warp. Therefore, these Space Lines of Communication are a thing. These are points that a Navy CAN defend, patrol, and keep clear of enemy forces.

If you want a "realistic" subsystem, I think you actually need to look back and understand how colonization on Earth took place, how it evolved, and why certain things were set-up the way they were. These can then be extrapolated into a space/40K environment in a realistic way. Humans tend follow patterns so know the historical patterns and extrapolate them forward and into 40K.


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Easy E wrote:
A small nitpick. Why would battles be fought in deep space? There is nothing of value there and it is really hard to interdict a space fleet in space. Instead, all the fighting should be near things that people actually want.


To put this in perspective, the Pacific is huge. Stupidly huge. The only major naval engagement that I know of was fought at Midway, a vital target. Space is vast beyond human comprehension. Saying that it's orders of magnitude larger than the Pacific is an understatement.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

trexmeyer wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
A small nitpick. Why would battles be fought in deep space? There is nothing of value there and it is really hard to interdict a space fleet in space. Instead, all the fighting should be near things that people actually want.


To put this in perspective, the Pacific is huge. Stupidly huge. The only major naval engagement that I know of was fought at Midway, a vital target. Space is vast beyond human comprehension. Saying that it's orders of magnitude larger than the Pacific is an understatement.

There were other major naval engagements in the Pacific during WWII. The Battle of the Coral Sea, for one, although that one was fought mainly with carrier-based aircraft. There were plenty of smaller engagements too. Midway was probably the biggest, though.

Your point about how absurdly vast space is compared to anything on Earth is perfectly valid, though. Douglas Adams said it best: "Space is big. Really big. In fact, you wouldn't believe just how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space."

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
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Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

 Gitzbitah wrote:

What you'd end up with in your scenario, a poorly populated frontier sector, is likely prospectors, farmers, miners, and raw material collectors. These aren't typically any different than the other 1,000s of worlds in the imperium, but the workers work more cheaply. Traders deal in advanced technology and luxury goods (I'd imagine cybernetics and medical personnel would be especially prized, considering the safety precautions these frontiersfolk will be bypassing to make a profit). Think age of sail colonial economy. Piracy, banditry, and general lawlessness will be a lowlevel background hum. With overall populations low, and little need to fight over land, conflicts will be frequent, and low intensity. You might even find some small escort vessels working as mercenaries/protection rackets.


I really like this ^^ accurate, and very much a 15th to 17th century vibe, and with that you get PIRATES! Argh matey! Avast! The greenskins be upon us!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Easy E wrote:


If you want a "realistic" subsystem, I think you actually need to look back and understand how colonization on Earth took place, how it evolved, and why certain things were set-up the way they were. These can then be extrapolated into a space/40K environment in a realistic way. Humans tend follow patterns so know the historical patterns and extrapolate them forward and into 40K.



Well, SOMEWHAT realistic. Its still 40k, after all, so we're still talkin' space orcs, space elves, space undead, space demons etc.

And here's something I never can quite cease to harp on. 40k killed the squats for being too silly, and yet they were the ONLY race that probably made sense. Short humans from high gravity worlds. Somehow space elves were nowhere near as silly as that.

Yeah, yeah. I know. But I'm still in therapy over it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/04 11:04:23


First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Fireknife Shas'el





Leicester

To be fair I don’t think it was the physiology that GW thought was too silly, but the fact that their culture was portrayed as 80’s heavy metal biker gangs IN SPAAAACE!, and they simply couldn’t think of a better one at the time.

DS:80+S+GM+B+I+Pw40k08D+A++WD355R+T(M)DM+
 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
Made in eu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

With a knowing nod to the 'lack of cultural impact' thread in the Geek Media forum, maybe have a look at Avatar...
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

 Jadenim wrote:
To be fair I don’t think it was the physiology that GW thought was too silly, but the fact that their culture was portrayed as 80’s heavy metal biker gangs IN SPAAAACE!, and they simply couldn’t think of a better one at the time.


Musta' been after my time. I remember them as primarily Norse/Tolkien dwarves with a few bikes added in for silliness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crispy78 wrote:
With a knowing nod to the 'lack of cultural impact' thread in the Geek Media forum, maybe have a look at Avatar...


THAT'S what awaits us? Avatar?

Now what did I do with my cyanide...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/05 11:24:16


First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(not so much the South Americans, interestingly enough)


Gonna have to disagree on that, but carry on!

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

 Adeptekon wrote:
 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(not so much the South Americans, interestingly enough)


Gonna have to disagree on that, but carry on!


I don't get it. You disagree that European-born disease killed fewer South American Indians? Or something else?

First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in au
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Lots of interesting questions there.

]Would one country have gotten ahead of the others, letting them have a monopoly on interstellar travel?
Would those far off outposts then demand independence once they establish themselves enough?
Would we be able to get enough resources from these far off places to actually make it practical?
Would you be able to make a return on the expenditure?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/09 01:49:46


 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
 Adeptekon wrote:
 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(not so much the South Americans, interestingly enough)


Gonna have to disagree on that, but carry on!


I don't get it. You disagree that European-born disease killed fewer South American Indians? Or something else?


Didn't want to derail the thread, but I didn't follow the "interestingly enough" explaination. It doesn't seem to explain why it is interesting and further seems to discount the South American genocide and the great number of folks that were there. Also I realize there's some debate about the total cause of the death toll in Latin America due to old world diease not necessariy European born, but European brought. I'm not really arguing for for a revised-contrarian view, taking a more progressive view.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Columbus, Ohio

 Adeptekon wrote:
 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
 Adeptekon wrote:
 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(not so much the South Americans, interestingly enough)


Gonna have to disagree on that, but carry on!


I don't get it. You disagree that European-born disease killed fewer South American Indians? Or something else?


Didn't want to derail the thread, but I didn't follow the "interestingly enough" explaination. It doesn't seem to explain why it is interesting and further seems to discount the South American genocide and the great number of folks that were there. Also I realize there's some debate about the total cause of the death toll in Latin America due to old world diease not necessariy European born, but European brought. I'm not really arguing for for a revised-contrarian view, taking a more progressive view.


I don't pretend to be an expert. Its simply my understanding as to the received wisdom among historians. The South American population was higher, so more diseases tended to develop, so they had hardier immune systems before the Portuguese and Spaniards showed up, so they tended to die in relatively fewer numbers. Their immune systems were not as hardy as the Europeans, understandably, as they had been dealing with plagues erupting in China and India (both with truly enormous populations) for a very long time indeed.

If I'm wrong about that, so be it. I'm willing to learn.

First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.

-Cardinal Richelieu 
   
Made in us
Winged Kroot Vulture






Stripped down to inhabitants of the planets, it depends.

How alien do you want them to be?
There is a lot of environmental factors to consider when shaping an authentic alien species. You could also just go the alien with forehead ridges aspect.

For my setting I took the idea of a Portuguese Man-O-War and evolved it. These aliens inhabit a mostly water planet.
Man-O-Wars are actually a creature made of smaller creatures, they are clones in a way.
How would that look as a species?
Obvious they would need to develop a means to swim. Use their natural ability to sting people as self defense as they evolve. Breeding is where they get interesting and weird. {They can breed asexually and create a clone of themselves. They could also reproduce with a mate making a completely unique member of society.} facultative parthenogenesis
What does this mean for the clones and offspring? To take a page from 40k, let's add a dark element to them and say the clones are treated as second class citizens and held responsible for the crimes of their prime.

This picture of Nayarlathotep is the closest I can find that fits the image in my mind.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/09 22:56:12


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