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Regarding the Librarian: I guess that depends on what else you have available to use the points on. His powers are good, but it is a bit expensive in 1000 points.

I would probably stick with the Combi-weapon LT because I would probably be trying to use him to deploy up the board and control some early objectives, and of course make use of his aura. I'd be playing this unit to keep out of line of sight and that might not be so good for a Vindicare. But it's up to you.

You could also drop both the LT and Librarian and have 150 more points to spend. Dont know if that helps you or not.

Yes it very helpful ! What will ne your suggestion for the 150 points left if I drop both the libby and Lt ? A gladiator lancer ?

Here are some options:

Gladiator-Lancer 145. A real bargain, some powerful anti-vehicle here which might be very good for you in case your opponent takes out your Dreadnaught early.

Whirlwind -150. An indirect fire option is very good to have. These are great tanks.

1 attack bike (55) + Eradicators (90), Infiltrators (90) or Eliminators (95). The attack bike slots nicely in for the points that we want, although it may be going to legends soon so if you dont already have one then I wouldnt suggest buying one. At least not until we see the Marine Codex and know for sure if it will be available the rest of the edition. For the other 95 points its your choice here of Eradicators which give you some additional anti-tank punch, Infiltrators if you want to hold down objectives, or Eliminators if you want to go after characters. It it was purely me I would probably go with the Infiltrators because I find them very useful.

Not so much a specific tactic, but a bit of an observation and question... do Primaris transport options feel weirdly lacking to anyone else? I'm mostly focused around list building at 1000 pts so stuff like a Land Raider or Repulsor feels like too much unless I'm just making a gimmicky party bus list. Impulsors feel like a weird bad compromised Razorback that are inferior in every way and the lack of 10-man transport for Primaris feels really weird. I don't understand why we couldn't just un-keyword-break Rhinos when they fixed Land Raiders.

 Prometheum5 wrote:
Not so much a specific tactic, but a bit of an observation and question... do Primaris transport options feel weirdly lacking to anyone else? I'm mostly focused around list building at 1000 pts so stuff like a Land Raider or Repulsor feels like too much unless I'm just making a gimmicky party bus list. Impulsors feel like a weird bad compromised Razorback that are inferior in every way and the lack of 10-man transport for Primaris feels really weird. I don't understand why we couldn't just un-keyword-break Rhinos when they fixed Land Raiders.

What are you looking to transport?

I like all of apogats' suggestions.

I don't know how effective the Vindicare is, but the biggest problem with the combi Lt is that he's more useful in large games where you have a bunch of units all benefitting from him in one place. He also can't go off solo and score objectives, so between just those two choices I'd pick the Vindicare.

I was going to suggest dropping the drop pod for outflanking. On one hand a drop pod offers more firepower sooner and more flexibly placed, but on the other hand by outrunning the rest of your army by dropping turn 1, they're set up to be murdered by your opponent's whole army before they can be backed up, you're dividing and conquering yourself, and you're spending an extra bunch of points.

Lemondish wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
Not so much a specific tactic, but a bit of an observation and question... do Primaris transport options feel weirdly lacking to anyone else? I'm mostly focused around list building at 1000 pts so stuff like a Land Raider or Repulsor feels like too much unless I'm just making a gimmicky party bus list. Impulsors feel like a weird bad compromised Razorback that are inferior in every way and the lack of 10-man transport for Primaris feels really weird. I don't understand why we couldn't just un-keyword-break Rhinos when they fixed Land Raiders.

What are you looking to transport?

Last thing I was noodling with was a Gravis armor list and it just feels like there's a real lack of synergy and support for Gravis units. Only can be transported in the most expensive rides, lack of character attachment options.

 Prometheum5 wrote:


Last thing I was noodling with was a Gravis armor list and it just feels like there's a real lack of synergy and support for Gravis units. Only can be transported in the most expensive rides, lack of character attachment options.

I find their character options to be pretty potent in any case. The Captain bringing Rites to the table for a big chonky Gravis unit is great while you can't really go wrong with Lethal Hits. Ultras get a really fun way to turn the unit into a real centrepiece with Calgar as well, though that further exacerbates your transport issues.

I hear you on the transport side of things. Gravis damage dealers are slow with short range, and the options are strategic reserves or a Repulsor/Land Raider/Storm Raven. Hell, if you really want a max unit to bring a ride, and you've also added the two chapter agnostic characters to the unit, your only real choice is the Crusader.

Now, that is one hell of a threatening core item you can build around, but it certainly isn't cheap, so I understand your frustration.

 Prometheum5 wrote:
Not so much a specific tactic, but a bit of an observation and question... do Primaris transport options feel weirdly lacking to anyone else? I'm mostly focused around list building at 1000 pts so stuff like a Land Raider or Repulsor feels like too much unless I'm just making a gimmicky party bus list. Impulsors feel like a weird bad compromised Razorback that are inferior in every way and the lack of 10-man transport for Primaris feels really weird. I don't understand why we couldn't just un-keyword-break Rhinos when they fixed Land Raiders.

If we weren't stuck with set unit sizes it wouldn't be as big an issue.

I agree. I was list building with Deathwatch and it seems like they are the most burdened by the unit cost changes.

Anyone get use out of Inceptors either with bolt or plasma. Their ability is nifty but no real way to buff unless you're willing to use Oaths on the target.

Can see them used to clear backfield objective holders but ideally you want 6 as 3 wont likely cut it.

Thanks to Apogats for all the good advices.

 Smirrors wrote:
Anyone get use out of Inceptors either with bolt or plasma. Their ability is nifty but no real way to buff unless you're willing to use Oaths on the target.

Can see them used to clear backfield objective holders but ideally you want 6 as 3 wont likely cut it.

Their mobility and deployment is nice. Plasma is lethal. Seems like a solid unit.

Is your logic that 3 will die too fast?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, just brainstorming a skew list based on my dislike of painting infantry models...

Oops! (almost) All Tanks!


Is this even viable or just ridiculous? It would definitely be fun to paint... And very expensive.

Quick questions : what is currently the best loadout for Eliminators ?
Thanks !

I was thinking Las Fusils over the BSRs, although with Sniper Scouts going away the BSRs might become our go-to for character hunting (not that that's something we're necessarily worried about doing).

My math generally tells me that Eradicators are highly effective in theory. Looking at Eldar lists and games, I have this desire to put a unit or two in strategic reserve. Can anyone tell me how they operate in practice, and whether they've been reasonably easy to deliver to their designated targets?

ok, so FINALLY got my first game of 10th edition yesterday evening.

i was running deathwatch vs nids, 1,000 points. mission was one form the main book, with the midfield objectives being "sticky".

my force:

Watch Master (warlord)
Firstborn Librarian
Primaris LT (the power sword + pistol version)

5 deathwatch vets (equipped with melee weapons, Watch master attached)
5 deathwatch vets (equipped with heavy weapons, Libby attached)
5 intercessors (ran them as the intercessors datasheet, not fortis kill team. LT attached)

3 agressors (flamestorm gauntlets)
3 eliminators (bolt sniper rifles)

Redemptor (plasma, icarus pod, Gatling on the fist, fragstorm on the chest guns)



the nids:

Winged Hive Tyrant, with the "redeploy 3 units" enhancement
2x carnifexes
Haruspex
Harpy
10 Gargoyles
10 Hormogaunts
3 spore mines to soak up some points


It was a massacre.


I got first turn, pushed my melee vets up a little, and the agressors made a long advance to claim a centre objective on turn one. My turn one shooting was nothing special, killed a few guants and took the Tyrant down to just 2 wounds via Oaths re-rolls.


his first turn just went aweful for him. he pulled the tyrant back into cover on his home objective to free up the gargoyles to push up, but he pushed them into overwatch range of the agressors, and a high roll for the number of hits (18, i think) just BBQ'd the whole squad in HIS movement phase. He'd played a few games of 10th before, but i think thats the first time he'd been stung by flamer overwatch like that before, and especially "out of phase" like that.

The Gaunts got a regen strat for free that replenished thier numbers back to full, then surged forward to Die for the Swarm (or Die Trying), but that held up the carnifexes & Haruspex a little, and kept them out of action this turn. I'd tried to be cagey with my melee vets and keep them far enough away to not get charged, but the Gaunt's advance and charge+ a lucky 9" charge got them into melee with me.....where they bounced spectacularly, only causing a single wound, and then were all promptly killed by the vets on thier fightback. the first battle round ended with me having done more damage to him in HIS turn than in mine.

Round two, I oath'd the Haruspex and activated the [lethal hits] detachment ability (deathwatch detachment ability, instead of combat doctrines), and the concentrated efforts of basically everything were able to kill it when the melee vets charged it. The lethal hits did really good service here, letting me score a lot of wounds on the toughness 11 Hauspex by massed small arms fire. His turn 2, the harpy deployed and fluffed its shooting, the spore mines deployed and did nothing, and the carnifexes charged my melee vets & killed the squad but not the Watch master.

My turn 3, I oathed the carnifexes, Watch master fell back, and again, focused fire form the majority of my army weakened them enough that the Agressors punched them dead in melee. this left him with the spore mines, the harpy, and the wounded Hive tyrant that was hiding in LOS blocking terrain and holding his home objective. His turn 3, the harpy made a bombing run and killed an intercessor, then failed to really hurt the Eliminators thanks to medicore rolls and the -1 to hit from Stealth.


My Turn Four, oathed the harpy, shot it down with focused fire, and killed the spore mines before they could get into range to blow.

At the start of turn 4, all he had left was the winged tyrant with 2 wounds left. I have no doubt i could have killed that in my turn 5 and tabled him, but we both agreed it wasn't worth the time to play out so we shook hands at that start of his turn 4.

final VP score was 7-2 (pure primary scoring, at 1vp per point per turn)

Post battle anaylsis:

The nid player had never played nids in 10th, was pretty young (mid teens), and was knowingly throwing a list of stuff he didn't normally use on the table, so its hard to draw too much form his list choices or comment on nids in general. That said, It was much to heavy on melee monsters with too little shooting, and he was never able to really inflict damage on me. My total losses that game were 5 vets a and 2 intercessors, plus a few chip wounds here and there. the harpy was a bad choice, its was too many points sunk into it for a 1k game.

He tried to pull a "bait and switch" deployment using his enhancement, but in the end it didnt have much effect, mostly because he didnt have the shooting to make me care and i was deployed pretty centrally and able to switch to follow him. When he pulled the Hive Tyrant back to hold the rear objective, combined with the harpy still in reserve, i was only actually fighting about half his total force, and it showed.

the center of the battlefield was a bit too open, in retrospect. the terrian layout was actaully sorted by the nid players father, but it wasn't favourable to the nids as i was able to bring almost all my firepower to bear on either of the center objectives.

speaking of objectives, sticky objectives was a real godsend this game. the center objectives were sticky due to mission rules, and my intercessors made the home objective sticky, all of which meant my squads weren't "tied down" holding objectives and could redeploy to keep the fight going. if i'd had to keep units on the points it would have been a significantly different battle

Oath of Moment is incredibly powerful, especially at 1k. By concentring fire on a big monster, i was able to bring them down though sheer weight of dice. A significant amount of damage was caused by massed small arms to those monsters.

Lethal Hits was a significant effect as well, both form deathwatch Mission Tactics and the LT. Against tough targets it really helped enable chip damage that added up really quick.

My MVP were the flamer aggressors. they were able to claim 2 objectives, deleted the gargoyles out of turn, and scored a lot of damage to the heavies through massed auto hits and re-rolled wound rolls. the Redemptor put in a lot of good work as well.


my weakest performer were the Eliminators, but that might be becuase they were character snipers in a battle with no embedded characters. i also deployed them on high ground that was just slightly too far back, so they have pretty limited shooting all game. Im not ready to write them off just yet, but they were deffo underperformed this game.

the vets did ok, but i need to tweak their loadouts a little, their need a touch more focus and reconfig as thiers too many shotguns (which likely means buying more, or finding a source of marine legs and torsos to strap weapons onto)



Also, game took only 2 hours form starting handshake to ending handshake, so 10th is MUCH quicker than 9th. The streamlining 100% sped up play as we almost never had a "wait, i have a strat for this..." moment.



we were both using the 40k app, and frankly it was perfectly serviceable. We never had a rules question we couldn't answer within the app. I'm already a WH+ subscriber, so I'm not bothered by the upcoming paywall for the list builder feature, and i intend to keep on using the app in preference to battlescribe.

Since I don't see a Blood Angels thread for 10th I will ask here.

For a Death Company unit. Would full on handflamers be useful?

Like 10x Handflamer 10x Powerfist?

Or is it plasma pistol or Inferno Pistols only? For the gun option. Just feel like the sheer weight of fire will be good and they can already mash stuff in melee with the pfist.

 Rogzor87 wrote:
Since I don't see a Blood Angels thread for 10th I will ask here.

For a Death Company unit. Would full on handflamers be useful?

Like 10x Handflamer 10x Powerfist?

Or is it plasma pistol or Inferno Pistols only? For the gun option. Just feel like the sheer weight of fire will be good and they can already mash stuff in melee with the pfist.

ive not ran the numbers, but lots of Torrent is always a useful thing, especially on a melee unit that could get caught out and charged. Being able to pump out an enormus amount of hits on Overwatch is a serious deterrent, especially for "glass cannon" or speed bump type units. I feel that mathhammer often doesn't catch the utility and board control advantages massed flamers can provide. Is it worth sending a howling banshee unit into those death coy if your going to loose half of them on the charge?


between inferno and plasma, i feel like Inferno is only really better once your already IN melee with something big enough the high damage is relevant, but i''ve never used them so thats pure theoryhammer talking.

Don't forget also that overwatch can be used on any unit moving within 12" of a Flamer unit - you can react to normal moves as well as charges.

10D6 Flamer hits can light up squads trying to advance and rapid fire as well as enemy melee squads.




I've been half wondering about a massed intercessor force: 2,000 points lets you field 10 squads of intercessors (6 rifle, 4 chainsword, the reverse, or a 50/50 mix), a Primaris Captain, and one other supporting leader (Primaris Ancient, Apothecary or Company Champion).

There's something tempting about a full astartes infantry company.

Yes, you'd be reduced to relying on power fists, grenade launchers and small arms chip damage for tank killing but Oath Of Moment makes that better than you'd think, and 100 marines is a heck of a mass to try and shoot off objectives (especially with a banner making one squads OC3 or a narthecium replacing lost squad members.

Has anyone thought of anything similar? If so, what ratio of rifle-to-melee squads seems best, which support character would you recommend and which detachment? There's no chapter specific units so any astartes detachment is legal.

 Rogzor87 wrote:
Since I don't see a Blood Angels thread for 10th I will ask here.

For a Death Company unit. Would full on handflamers be useful?

Like 10x Handflamer 10x Powerfist?

Or is it plasma pistol or Inferno Pistols only? For the gun option. Just feel like the sheer weight of fire will be good and they can already mash stuff in melee with the pfist.

I absolutely think that handflamers have some serious usefulness, especially in the current meta. Consider the two top armies:
1) Eldar. Warp spiders won't dare come close - they'd be reduced to 0-1 models on average by the overwatch.
2) GSC. Similar story. A squad of acolytes or neophytes arrives within 12" only to get nearly wiped (or absolutely wiped if you roll a bit hot) before firing a shot. In one battle round, you could essentially deplete 3 GSC squads (shoot overwatch, shoot, assault) likely without destroying any of them, buying you another turn or two to spread out enough to delete blips.

Honestly, it's useful against pretty much any army but marines, whose T4/5 and 3+/2+ saves are perfect for resisting hand flamers.
I can see it being useful against demons, both small and big, whose 4++ doesn't care if you're AP- or AP2. Or armies with T3 hordes, like tyranids & guard.
Among armies that are strong right now, you'll miss those inferno pistols against custodes and to some extent knights. Just make sure you have a separate answer for them.

locarno24 wrote:

There's something tempting about a full astartes infantry company.

Yes, you'd be reduced to relying on power fists, grenade launchers and small arms chip damage for tank killing but Oath Of Moment makes that better than you'd think, and 100 marines is a heck of a mass to try and shoot off objectives (especially with a banner making one squads OC3 or a narthecium replacing lost squad members.

Why wouldn't I have AT weapons with me?

locarno24 wrote:

I've been half wondering about a massed intercessor force: 2,000 points lets you field 10 squads of intercessors (6 rifle, 4 chainsword, the reverse, or a 50/50 mix), a Primaris Captain, and one other supporting leader (Primaris Ancient, Apothecary or Company Champion).

There's something tempting about a full astartes infantry company.

Yes, you'd be reduced to relying on power fists, grenade launchers and small arms chip damage for tank killing but Oath Of Moment makes that better than you'd think, and 100 marines is a heck of a mass to try and shoot off objectives (especially with a banner making one squads OC3 or a narthecium replacing lost squad members.

Has anyone thought of anything similar?

Sort of.

I don't think it would be effective - too little outgoing firepower, no speed to score secondaries, and I keep thinking of all the tools you don't have.

But if you're thinking of hordes of survivable marines, I may have something to add.

I've been trying to math out a defensive score for each unit based on points per wound and defensive metrics (like toughness, saves, defensive buffs and how many wounds you can lose at one go to lascannon equivalents). I'd tell you that intercessors are decent on survivability, but that you ought to mix it up with some other units, of which heavy intercessors would probably interest/amuse/fit your theme best. But if you're OK mixing it up just a bit more, consider adding a dash of scout snipers, tactical squads, infernus, infiltrators, incursors, and maaaybe bikers and scout bikers.

You're still low on anti-tank, but several of the above units can supply some, if not much, and other tools are now available to you. If you're up for going a bit further afield, some deathwing units from dark angels also have good survivability per point once you factor in their resistance to mortal wounds.

Celerior wrote:

I absolutely think that handflamers have some serious usefulness, especially in the current meta. Consider the two top armies:
1) Eldar. Warp spiders won't dare come close - they'd be reduced to 0-1 models on average by the overwatch.
2) GSC. Similar story. A squad of acolytes or neophytes arrives within 12" only to get nearly wiped (or absolutely wiped if you roll a bit hot) before firing a shot. In one battle round, you could essentially deplete 3 GSC squads (shoot overwatch, shoot, assault) likely without destroying any of them, buying you another turn or two to spread out enough to delete blips.

Honestly, it's useful against pretty much any army but marines, whose T4/5 and 3+/2+ saves are perfect for resisting hand flamers.
I can see it being useful against demons, both small and big, whose 4++ doesn't care if you're AP- or AP2. Or armies with T3 hordes, like tyranids & guard.
Among armies that are strong right now, you'll miss those inferno pistols against custodes and to some extent knights. Just make sure you have a separate answer for them.

Yeah my plan was 1 unit with hand flamer/pfist and then 2 units with inferno pistols or plasma pistols + pfist.

Rogzor, those others can be small units, but overwatch likes mass.



Well, I finally had a chance to play a game on TTS. Alas it was against a death guard player with little guile, and by the bottom of turn 2 it was all over.

Oath of moment is such a hit-or-miss ability! When hitting on 3s and wounding on 5s it more than doubles your firepower (x2.33). Even better when hitting on 4s (x2.5). Fantastic against deathstar units. But the part of your army not using it really feels its absence, and if an opponent has a way to nullify it (Mists of Deimos, Phantasm) then I can imagine you've got big problems.

Confirmed: multiple servitor units in strategic reserve can be effective at cheaply punishing an opponent who doesn't screen very effectively, and so forcing him to spend a lot of resources doing so or eat a lot of oath of moment melta/plasma shots just where he doesn't want them. Overwatch kills ablative bodies or at best one of the 3 units. And an opponent concentrating on screening can't rush you or objectives willy nilly. Compare them in range, firepower, and points to tempestus scions from the guard index.

Confirmed: Inceptors at the right time and place can result in a huge point swing.

One great use for terminators is to rapid ingress them where an opponent doesn't have overwhelming firepower, right behind a unit they were planning to charge. Even better if this means you're plopping your models on an objective they were planning to take. Suddenly they're not so eager to get closer anymore, and even if they don't you're likely getting your charge off. In my game, they backed up a unit of scout snipers on my home objective.

I have a tournament upcoming and would appreciate advice on my list. Find it here in the appropriate forum:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/810956.page

I am looking to get some new anti tank. I am looking hard at the gladiator and stormspeeders.

Are the gladiators just better then stormspeeders? They cost about the same, but are much thougher. Is there something I am not seeing?

 Niiai wrote:
I am looking to get some new anti tank. I am looking hard at the gladiator and stormspeeders.

Are the gladiators just better then stormspeeders? They cost about the same, but are much thougher. Is there something I am not seeing?

well, a 30 second look shows the storm speeders have native deep Strike, which can be very useful, especially if it lets you get that one guaranteed round of shooting to delete something. the metla-speeder also removes the benefit of cover on its target, while the las-talon speeders grants +1 to wound to all attacks on its target, both of which can be very useful tricks in conjuction with other units.

so, i'd argue a lot of the points the speeders pay are for their "playmaker" abilties to buff other units shooting, coupled with native deep strike to ensure it can pull it off. Is that more useful in absolute terms than the higher survivability of the Gladiator tanks? not really, which is why they are roughly the same cost

So I've been thinking about calculating defense as well as offense output. Here are some thoughts:

Why the tank's toughness is a lie:


So with this in mind, I calculated points-per-wound for basically everything in the 'dex. Here are some commonly occurring units:


Why Lychguard are so resilient and deathguard aren't:


Why librarians are useless:


And now a few offensive thoughts:

Why lancers specifically are overrated:


Why the thunderstrike is great:

Yet vehicles are the ones spammed.

So is entire world wrong and you are lone genius or are you in error? Which is more likely