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How do!

So here’s a thread I’ve been trying to write for a few days. Hopefully it won’t be too rambling, but I’m not gonna guarantee that.

And the title suggests, it’s about the potential for Chaos as a whole under 10th’s structure.

See, Chaos has been various things over the years, from ragtag warbands lead by champion’s of varying potency, to more formalised military structures as if the Legions of old never truly broke up.

And all of those iterations, Chaos being Chaos, are completely valid. I certainly have my preference (the former!).

But since 3rd Ed, all armies have been constrained by FOC. Not only did you have minimum requirements, but all too often certain slots were simply over populated, most commonly across all armies the Elites slot. 8th and 9th kind of almost helped thanks to variant Detachments. But those came at some cost in CPs. So once again there were constraints.

10th however? Well, you need a Leader. And in terms of compulsories, that’s it. Sure we can take more Battleline units. And we definitely want to keep an eye on our OC count. But other than that and rule of 3 we can make the army of our dreams, possibly nightmares.

And Chaos of all armies must be made able to lean into this in terms of unit options. Whilst yes I can now take a hardcore band of mutant turbo Nutters, fielding nothing but Chosen and Possessed and Terminators (oh my!)…..but do they have enough Characters to truly go round? Can I make each squad into a warband unto itself by giving each a powerful character to lead them?

The same with its sub-factions. I’ve seen there are rules where we can have a proper anarchic patchwork. And I’m all for that. Especially if GW finally extract digit from orifice and give us Proper Lost And Damned. Because that would be my preferred force. A horde of the Great Unwashed as my core, ably supported by maybe a Knight, Chosen masquerading as head-canon “that’s how hard and well equipped Veterans of the Long War should be” CSM. Maybe some Daemons here or there. Just a squad or two, but also maybe a Greater Daemon if I want.

Would this anarchic vision be open to list abuse? Yes. Do I care? No. Why? Because someone intent on list abuse is….gonna do it anyway. All you can do is adjust what list abuse actually looks like on a given day. And a handful of poor sports interested solely in finding what they believe to be a one-press-win-button shouldn’t be allowed to spoil potential for anyone else.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

So here’s a thread I’ve been trying to write for a few days. Hopefully it won’t be too rambling, but I’m not gonna guarantee that.

And the title suggests, it’s about the potential for Chaos as a whole under 10th’s structure.

See, Chaos has been various things over the years, from ragtag warbands lead by champion’s of varying potency, to more formalised military structures as if the Legions of old never truly broke up.

And all of those iterations, Chaos being Chaos, are completely valid. I certainly have my preference (the former!).

But since 3rd Ed, all armies have been constrained by FOC. Not only did you have minimum requirements, but all too often certain slots were simply over populated, most commonly across all armies the Elites slot. 8th and 9th kind of almost helped thanks to variant Detachments. But those came at some cost in CPs. So once again there were constraints.

10th however? Well, you need a Leader. And in terms of compulsories, that’s it. Sure we can take more Battleline units. And we definitely want to keep an eye on our OC count. But other than that and rule of 3 we can make the army of our dreams, possibly nightmares.

I think you've got a point here - for this being the less lethal edition, I wonder if this isn't going to be the Wild Wild West where the optimal plan is to get as close to tabling your opponent as possible in the first couple/few turns, then collect points for the last few/couple. And in some ways its even kind of ironic that this would be (at least for SM) one of the better editions for them to have a FOC with a "troop tax" - so many of what used to be Troops now bonus the rest of the army in some way, or have a bespoke that make them do something special enough to not be a "tax". I just saw an army list someone took to an event that was a Libby in a 10x Desolation Squad, a small squad of sniper scouts, 5 Incursors, A Primaris Techmarine with 5 Intercessors, 2x3 Boltstorm Aggressors assumedly riding around in 2x Repulsor Executioners, 2 Gladiator Lancers, A Redemptor, and a Storm Speeder - Even second edition had min/max limits on Characters, Squads, and Support

And Chaos of all armies must be made able to lean into this in terms of unit options. Whilst yes I can now take a hardcore band of mutant turbo Nutters, fielding nothing but Chosen and Possessed and Terminators (oh my!)…..but do they have enough Characters to truly go round? Can I make each squad into a warband unto itself by giving each a powerful character to lead them?

The same with its sub-factions. I’ve seen there are rules where we can have a proper anarchic patchwork. And I’m all for that. Especially if GW finally extract digit from orifice and give us Proper Lost And Damned. Because that would be my preferred force. A horde of the Great Unwashed as my core, ably supported by maybe a Knight, Chosen masquerading as head-canon “that’s how hard and well equipped Veterans of the Long War should be” CSM. Maybe some Daemons here or there. Just a squad or two, but also maybe a Greater Daemon if I want.

Would this anarchic vision be open to list abuse? Yes. Do I care? No. Why? Because someone intent on list abuse is….gonna do it anyway. All you can do is adjust what list abuse actually looks like on a given day. And a handful of poor sports interested solely in finding what they believe to be a one-press-win-button shouldn’t be allowed to spoil potential for anyone else.

Are there enough shoting buffing chaos characters though and are there enough units that are shoting, good and can be joined by characters to have a 2000pts list with minimal tax? I know that DG can't do it, and 1ksons can. CSM were the terminator brick faction in 9th, but now their terminators aren't as good over all and trying to play melee at marine cost or more isn't very efficient. Maybe some sort of monster mash army with a ton of vehicles, monsters and a knight could work. GK have a list with 6 NDK and 3 techmarine, but we teleport a lot. CSM would have better shoting, but would be slower and losing one unit per turn minimum is bad, for a high cost vehicle heavy army

I thought you needed a warlord and 2 battle one units.

There are restrictions on the number of demons and beserkers, plague marines and rubrics you can take in a CSM army but those restrictions allow you to take those units to about 25% of your army.

I like the flexibility and it fits my idea of where chaos are on the galaxy at the minute. For my money a huge amount of imperium planets will have fallen to chaos and I think the expansion on cultist units reflects that. Plus renegade guardsmen and Beastmen can now fill the ranks. I hope they continue with this idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Infact I’ve just had a quick look and you absolutely can make an army of just cultists, Beastmen and guardsmen. I wonder if this would be any good.

Hmm.
Looking at the Chaos index units I just realized that I can put traitor Guard, cultist squads, & beastmen into Chaos Land Raiders & Rhinos.

Looking at all the rhinos across all the armies some have a shooting deck availing that allows 2 passengers within to shoot out the windows. But some, like the chaos ones don’t have that but they are all roughly the same points

mrFickle wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Infact I’ve just had a quick look and you absolutely can make an army of just cultists, Beastmen and guardsmen. I wonder if this would be any good.

Traitor guardsmen get better special weapon saturation than any other entry in the CSM codex. Not sure if they're allowed to ride Rhinos though.

mrFickle wrote:
Looking at all the rhinos across all the armies some have a shooting deck availing that allows 2 passengers within to shoot out the windows. But some, like the chaos ones don’t have that but they are all roughly the same points

Death Guard rhino: Firing Deck 2, Self Repair 1, Havoc Missile Launcher
CSM rhino, Thousands Sons Rhino, world eater's rhino: No firing deck

CSM Rhino 85 points
Death Guard Rhino 80 points
Thousand Sons Rhino 75 points
World Eaters 85 points

Consistency. Yeah.

 solkan wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Looking at all the rhinos across all the armies some have a shooting deck availing that allows 2 passengers within to shoot out the windows. But some, like the chaos ones don’t have that but they are all roughly the same points

Death Guard rhino: Firing Deck 2, Self Repair 1, Havoc Missile Launcher
CSM rhino, Thousands Sons Rhino, world eater's rhino: No firing deck

CSM Rhino 85 points
Death Guard Rhino 80 points
Thousand Sons Rhino 75 points
World Eaters 85 points

Consistency. Yeah.

No, Chaosistency.

 solkan wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Looking at all the rhinos across all the armies some have a shooting deck availing that allows 2 passengers within to shoot out the windows. But some, like the chaos ones don’t have that but they are all roughly the same points

Death Guard rhino: Firing Deck 2, Self Repair 1, Havoc Missile Launcher
CSM rhino, Thousands Sons Rhino, world eater's rhino: No firing deck

CSM Rhino 85 points
Death Guard Rhino 80 points
Thousand Sons Rhino 75 points
World Eaters 85 points

Consistency. Yeah.

Yeah, it does look pretty ridiculous.

Although in fairness, a Rhino probably *is* worth a lot more to a World Eaters army full of Khorne Berzerkers desperate to get close to the enemy quickly before they get blasted to pieces, than it is to a Thousand Sons army full of durable little units who'd rather a bit of space.

 solkan wrote:
CSM Rhino 85 points: Dark Pacts
Death Guard Rhino 80 points: Firing Deck 2, Nurgle's Rot, Plague Combi-Bolter
Thousand Sons Rhino 75 points: Inferno Combi-Bolter, Inferno Combi-Weapon
World Eaters 85 points: Blessing of Khorne

Consistency. Yeah.

I've added the differences that just might explain why they have different points values. That being said, I'm not sure why the CSM and World Eaters Rhinos are the most expensive

 alextroy wrote:

 solkan wrote:
CSM Rhino 85 points: Dark Pacts
Death Guard Rhino 80 points: Firing Deck 2, Nurgle's Rot, Plague Combi-Bolter
Thousand Sons Rhino 75 points: Inferno Combi-Bolter, Inferno Combi-Weapon
World Eaters 85 points: Blessing of Khorne

Consistency. Yeah.

I've added the differences that just might explain why they have different points values. That being said, I'm not sure why the CSM and World Eaters Rhinos are the most expensive

For another $50, I can sell you this here bridge, and a comforting explanation for why the chaos rhinos allow you to take three options (the built in combi-bolter, the second combi-bolter or Combi-weapon, and the havoc missile launcher) when the model only physically has physical space for two options (they all go in the front two turret spots) without making anyone throw around accusations of power gaming or modeling for advantage.

This free product we have been offered is not a quality one.

Ok, snarky comments about Chaos Rhino pricing aside:

@MDG: Thrilled that your personal build for Chaos is again possible! Hope that it compels you to start a Chaos army. Have fun. But, could you pour one out (down your throat, not on the ground. I don't want to encourage alcohol abuse, after all. ) for those of us whose preferred theme for our CSM armies have been utterly destroyed?

Long live the Heresy. Death to the False Emperor!!

EviscerationPlague wrote:

mrFickle wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Infact I’ve just had a quick look and you absolutely can make an army of just cultists, Beastmen and guardsmen. I wonder if this would be any good.

Traitor guardsmen get better special weapon saturation than any other entry in the CSM codex. Not sure if they're allowed to ride Rhinos though.

They are. They've got the right combo of Key Words required for either Rhino or Landraider.

Cultists in Land Raiders?

Sure. Why not! It's consistent with everything else Chaos has right now...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cultists in Land Raiders?

Sure. Why not! It's consistent with everything else Chaos has right now...

That forces hitch a hike in a transport not initially added to them isn't an issue imo. Maybee this is the equivalent of a Kampfgruppe ad hoc formation and they just had a bunch of traitor guardsmen loitering and needed them fast forward.

What irks me more is that Traitor guardsmen casually can have 3 of every special weapon they want... like... how are they better equipped than mainline IG squads? If they were like Veterans equivalent, spire guard f.e. or blood pact stormtroopers ? but average joe spikey squad with 3 pg, meltas or sniper rifles, joined up with csm and therefore logistically to a quite a degree worse off for human sized weaponry ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

 solkan wrote:
CSM Rhino 85 points: Dark Pacts
Death Guard Rhino 80 points: Firing Deck 2, Nurgle's Rot, Plague Combi-Bolter
Thousand Sons Rhino 75 points: Inferno Combi-Bolter, Inferno Combi-Weapon
World Eaters 85 points: Blessing of Khorne

Consistency. Yeah.

I've added the differences that just might explain why they have different points values. That being said, I'm not sure why the CSM and World Eaters Rhinos are the most expensive

The ability for sudoku and go play 30k is valuable clearly, as for some reason a 40k chaos rhino is more expensive than a deimos rhino

I think traitor guardsmen are supposed to be the elite ranges unit for a cultist army. Probably the codex will provide some restrictions on their inclusion.

Untethered from the constraints of the imperial war machine and munitorium they could be much better equipped than standard IG unit. They could barter their service in exchange for weapons or resort to piracy. Or just focus their local manufacturing on fire arms as they only have themselves to consider. It all depends on how the lore is written.

Beastmen are just aswell armed as your standard AM unit minus the heavy weapon option I think. Anything is possible when you aren’t trying to provide resources to a galaxy wide empire

I think you could just as easily argue that without a galaxy wide imperium backing you up with ressources, your equipment would be worse than before.

a_typical_hero wrote:
I think you could just as easily argue that without a galaxy wide imperium backing you up with ressources, your equipment would be worse than before.

This, but that would require the lore of the game not having collapsed on the theme about technological stagnation.
Thanks cawl.

All I know about CSM right now is that Possessed are stupid good and until FAQ'd I told my friend to start using 3 squads (just not against me).

A 10-man squad (w/o leader but in range of Abaddon's reroll aura) pumped out 42 normal wounds (21 2-dmg hits) and 26 mortal wounds in one round of combat against my Necrons last game; and apparently that was a fairly mediocre roll...