Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Do you know what's absolutely wild? Nobody actually knows what the pay for this job is because GW isn't telling.
All these comparisons are based on what is almost certainly out-of-date data.

 Gert wrote:
Do you know what's absolutely wild? Nobody actually knows what the pay for this job is because GW isn't telling.
All these comparisons are based on what is almost certainly out-of-date data.

Almost like they should consider advertising the salary since Dakka is at least 50% populated by people overqualifiedfor that role anyway. They might bag someone!

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Difficult to compare jobs in different countries - do many Americans get a month's paid holiday a year? Do they get their taxes done for them by the government. Free healthcare etc....

Sure, it's not exactly comparable. A burger flipper isn't getting all of that but a burger flipper is also making half as much as even an entry-level engineer/software developer/etc. And in those jobs you do get a month of paid time off, and you can easily pay for the healthcare and tax paperwork while still having a lot of money left over.

The point, whether or not the numbers are exactly comparable, is that the comparison shouldn't be possible at all. A professional job as a public representative of a company with a high level of specific skills and experience should be paying way more than a job that will take any warm body off the street. GW is massively underpaying and limiting themselves to hardcore fanboys who will take a low paying job just to get to be part of GW, not the best talent for the job.

I work for an accountancy firm in a global team. American colleagues doing the exact same role as me get paid about twice what I do. I assume most American office jobs in the big cities pay much more than the equivalent UK roles outside of London.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Yep, and for less salary than the average burger flipper in the US. I'm sure someone will be enough of a fanboy to take the deal just to be part of GW but GW sure isn't trying very hard.

This is what I was thinking, so very confused was I. A Walmart cashier makes what $15 now? You would be best not to have a family or a mortgage and take this position.

I would think this would be one of a council of designers so as to have a little diversity in thought and checks on biases.

On the GW staff and tournaments issue - they're always at some event or another. One of the AOS big bods does Carnage (big AOS event) in Manchester every year. Nick Bayton does a ton at WHW.

Conversely, one of their Rules Guys used to attend Guild Ball events but he had to do so with a fake moustache and a fake name as GW didn't like their rules guys playing other systems. I don't want to name him as he's a top lad and i don't ant him to get retroactively bollocked for it, but the system he works on is widely considered to be the best GW game.

On topic - I'm sure it will appeal to lots of 'fan boys', and to a few the salary and benefits will be acceptable and they will have a great old time of it. It is possible to advance in GW too. My old buddy Ray went from Red Shirt in Stockport, to Heavy Metal painter, to head of the terrain design studio.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Difficult to compare jobs in different countries - do many Americans get a month's paid holiday a year? Do they get their taxes done for them by the government. Free healthcare etc....

Sure, it's not exactly comparable. A burger flipper isn't getting all of that but a burger flipper is also making half as much as even an entry-level engineer/software developer/etc.

But (if speculation on salary is correct) this job *does* pay about the same as an entry-level engineer or software developer in the UK.

By all means compare, but it's pointless comparing jobs in entirely different markets. Most people don't realistically have the choice of choosing between working in the US or the UK anyway.

My personal experience is that US friends seem to earn a lot more than me, yet somehow seem to have less money.

The floor on quality of life in the US is waaaaaaay lower. Everything is also inflated as we have blood sucking middle men rentier c-suite types in every industry.

I was looking at Scotland at one point. A comfortable 1 bedroom flat would be 600-900 pounds a month. A one bedroom apartment here is at least $1,200 near a city and >$1800 in a mediocre part of one. Food is more expensive. We pay more in taxes (I count SSI and medicare/medicaid and so should you since you're paying it, it's roughly 25%-30% all told) and get less in services. We also pay healthcare premiums on top of that (~$160 for good insurance per month). Internet and phone data here are $80 and $60 a month and roughly half that in pounds in Scotland?

35,000 pounds (and this is a good salary for Not London from what I've seen) means you make something like 2,000 pounds a month. 800 to rent, you don't need a car because even if transit doesn't super work the towns and cities are eminently walkable. 80 pounds a month for data and internet. Food is... 200-300 pounds a month (hard to get a good read internationally). So you end up with roughly 600-700 pounds to spend on whatever. Making $42,000 (1.2 currency ratio) in the US has you solidly boned if you want to live alone.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
The floor on quality of life in the US is waaaaaaay lower. Everything is also inflated as we have blood sucking middle men rentier c-suite types in every industry.

I was looking at Scotland at one point. A comfortable 1 bedroom flat would be 600-900 pounds a month. A one bedroom apartment here is at least $1,200 near a city and >$1800 in a mediocre part of one. Food is more expensive. We pay more in taxes (I count SSI and medicare/medicaid and so should you since you're paying it, it's roughly 25%-30% all told) and get less in services. We also pay healthcare premiums on top of that (~$160 for good insurance per month). Internet and phone data here are $80 and $60 a month and roughly half that in pounds in Scotland?

35,000 pounds (and this is a good salary for Not London from what I've seen) means you make something like 2,000 pounds a month. 800 to rent, you don't need a car because even if transit doesn't super work the towns and cities are eminently walkable. 80 pounds a month for data and internet. Food is... 200-300 pounds a month (hard to get a good read internationally). So you end up with roughly 600-700 pounds to spend on whatever. Making $42,000 (1.2 currency ratio) in the US has you solidly boned if you want to live alone.

Not a UK resident, but Europe in general has been hammered by inflation. One specific point of attention is the (ongoing IMO) energy crisis.

Having worked for an energy company in 2021/2022, there were a fair amount of customers that had to pay monthly advances in excess of
500 EUR for their energy (gas and electricity) bill. The energy prices have dropped since, but with the current geopolitical situation and the
fact that Europe is very much energy dependent from external sources, we're only a harsh winter away from a repeat scenario.

I feel like (if one believes the Hersh reporting) that the energy/inflation crisis is on us post-Nordstream.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Making $42,000 (1.2 currency ratio) in the US has you solidly boned if you want to live alone.

Sure, but a comparable role for that level of qualifications in the US would be paying more like $100-150k, not $42k, to have even a chance of hiring anyone. And make that $200k or more to get your choice of the best candidates and not just the people who are desperate for a new job.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Making $42,000 (1.2 currency ratio) in the US has you solidly boned if you want to live alone.

Sure, but a comparable role for that level of qualifications in the US would be paying more like $100-150k, not $42k, to have even a chance of hiring anyone. And make that $200k or more to get your choice of the best candidates and not just the people who are desperate for a new job.

According to Glassdoor average board game designer salaries range from $56,000 – $113,000

and a more recent one:

Ultimately, the national average salary of a game developer in the USA is $98,259 per year with a maximum of $123,000

The average salary for a Board Game Designer is £35168 per year in United Kingdom.

Frankly it doesn't need to be a dick waving competition over international salaries, it largely doesn't matter. The point is whether the pay is appropriate for the role in the location advertised at the spec given.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
The floor on quality of life in the US is waaaaaaay lower.

Don't live above your means, and do your research. I did.

Dudeface wrote:
The point is whether the pay is appropriate for the role in the location advertised at the spec given.

And the pay isn't appropriate. Describe those requirements in more general terms and you have something like "high-level expert in their field with 5+ years of demonstrated success needed for a high-visibility role in a $500 million company". If you have that level of requirements you either pay those six figure salaries or you get one of two types of people for the job: a bottom of the barrel candidate who can't get a better job anywhere else, or a rabid fanboy who will take a 75% pay cut for the privilege of working at the object of their obsession. GW would be far better off advertising a salary in line with the requirements, opening it to candidates worldwide with the work being primarily remote, and taking the best possible candidate for the job.

Has GW advertised a salary with this position? I thought we were still going on comments made in old forum/news/interview posts about other positions years ago.

 Adeptekon wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
The floor on quality of life in the US is waaaaaaay lower.

Don't live above your means, and do your research. I did.

You're not necessarily wrong, but the people saying that bluntly are either the insufferable grindset dudes or conservatives living in Wyoming where rent is three ears of corn

 Overread wrote:
Has GW advertised a salary with this position? I thought we were still going on comments made in old forum/news/interview posts about other positions years ago.

No they have not, and they never do.

 Overread wrote:
Has GW advertised a salary with this position? I thought we were still going on comments made in old forum/news/interview posts about other positions years ago.

They haven't AFAIK, but the fact that they aren't willing to strongly implies that the salary is embarrassingly low and they're hoping to get a candidate emotionally committed in the interview process before revealing it.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Has GW advertised a salary with this position? I thought we were still going on comments made in old forum/news/interview posts about other positions years ago.

They haven't AFAIK, but the fact that they aren't willing to strongly implies that the salary is embarrassingly low and they're hoping to get a candidate emotionally committed in the interview process before revealing it.

We actually do not need to second-guess this, it is precisely their stated intent in not advertising a salary, and directly stated in their FAQ about their hiring process. I quoted it some pages ago.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The point is whether the pay is appropriate for the role in the location advertised at the spec given.

And the pay isn't appropriate. Describe those requirements in more general terms and you have something like "high-level expert in their field with 5+ years of demonstrated success needed for a high-visibility role in a $500 million company". If you have that level of requirements you either pay those six figure salaries or you get one of two types of people for the job: a bottom of the barrel candidate who can't get a better job anywhere else, or a rabid fanboy who will take a 75% pay cut for the privilege of working at the object of their obsession. GW would be far better off advertising a salary in line with the requirements, opening it to candidates worldwide with the work being primarily remote, and taking the best possible candidate for the job.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, a "six figure" salary would be very high for the UK for this kind of role.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
And the pay isn't appropriate. Describe those requirements in more general terms and you have something like "high-level expert in their field with 5+ years of demonstrated success needed for a high-visibility role in a $500 million company". If you have that level of requirements you either pay those six figure salaries or you get one of two types of people for the job: a bottom of the barrel candidate who can't get a better job anywhere else, or a rabid fanboy who will take a 75% pay cut for the privilege of working at the object of their obsession. GW would be far better off advertising a salary in line with the requirements, opening it to candidates worldwide with the work being primarily remote, and taking the best possible candidate for the job.

Yeah no, that's not accurate in any way, shape, or form. To be earning a six-figure salary we're talking extensive experience in the sector alongside accreditations or higher education with specialised skills. We're talking CFOs, managing directors, and specialised doctors.
This job is playing Warhammer for a living. It is not even remotely in the same ballpark as some of the jobs I've listed above and that sort of paycheck takes decades to earn.

 Gert wrote:
Yeah no, that's not accurate in any way, shape, or form. To be earning a six-figure salary we're talking extensive experience in the sector alongside accreditations or higher education with specialised skills. We're talking CFOs, managing directors, and specialised doctors.

I guess that's a failure of the UK wage scale then. In the US a six figure salary is an engineer/software developer/etc with 1-2 years of experience in the field, with entry level being a minimum of $75k or so. Senior professionals are making more like $2-500k/year, and anything C-level is up in the millions at all but the smallest of companies.

GW can of course scale everything to UK wages but that means they aren't going to attract high-level talent from anywhere that salaries are better, which seems to be a rather significant error when their biggest market is the US.

This job is playing Warhammer for a living. It is not even remotely in the same ballpark as some of the jobs I've listed above and that sort of paycheck takes decades to earn.

That is seriously understating the level of skill and competence required for the job. Maybe GW sees it as "playing warhammer for a living" which is why they are so bad at game design but what they need is someone with a high level of math and analytical skills as well as excellent PR skills.

bobthe4th wrote:
As has been pointed out repeatedly, a "six figure" salary would be very high for the UK for this kind of role.

For context, a six-figure salary here puts you in the top 3-4% of UK taxpayers by income.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

I guess that's a failure of the UK wage scale then.

"The UK needs to nationally pay better wages in order to improve Warhammer" is definitely a bold take.

Probably one I'm not going to disagree with either

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
I guess that's a failure of the UK wage scale then. In the US a six figure salary is an engineer/software developer/etc with 1-2 years of experience in the field, with entry level being a minimum of $75k or so. Senior professionals are making more like $2-500k/year, and anything C-level is up in the millions at all but the smallest of companies.

GW can of course scale everything to UK wages but that means they aren't going to attract high-level talent from anywhere that salaries are better, which seems to be a rather significant error when their biggest market is the US.

As has been stated many many times to you at this point, Americans earn more because they have higher costs of living on average. It's not an error that UK companies pay less than American ones when we don't have to pay £1000 for an ambulance to a hospital.

That is seriously understating the level of skill and competence required for the job. Maybe GW sees it as "playing warhammer for a living" which is why they are so bad at game design but what they need is someone with a high level of math and analytical skills as well as excellent PR skills.

No matter what way you spin this, it's playing Warhammer for a living, not auditing a company or treating long-term respiratory illnesses.

its playing warhammer for a living as part of it, its also being able to draw meaningful conclusions from the experience that GW can take and use to raise profits in some way

the analytical side I'm qualified to do, GW would not pay what I earn for me to do it (we will leave aside my hilariously bad scoring run at warhammer events and only slightly less bad at other games)

I did actually apply to GW (a good few years back) for a different role, I lived in Derby at the time, living with parents.

what GW were offering (I turned it down) essentially would not have covered the cost of travel to work by car, excluding the cost of insurance etc. this was pre-minimum wage but even so they had a policy then of wanting the best and paying below the industry average

for this role they want someone who is good with numbers, yet is unable to compare the salary they are likely offering against what can be earned elsewhere

result is they either get a lot less experience and skill than they want, or they hire someone who has enough wealth to want the job and not care what it pays

all of which aside, they are at least looking

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Yeah no, that's not accurate in any way, shape, or form. To be earning a six-figure salary we're talking extensive experience in the sector alongside accreditations or higher education with specialised skills. We're talking CFOs, managing directors, and specialised doctors.

I guess that's a failure of the UK wage scale then. In the US a six figure salary is an engineer/software developer/etc with 1-2 years of experience in the field, with entry level being a minimum of $75k or so. Senior professionals are making more like $2-500k/year, and anything C-level is up in the millions at all but the smallest of companies.

Six figure salaries are rare in the UK. Wages don't scale as high. I suspect in large part because you're then paying 45% tax on it all. So other benefits like company cars, additional paid leave, share options, private health insurance and so on tend to be the preferred perks at a higher level.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
The floor on quality of life in the US is waaaaaaay lower.

Don't live above your means, and do your research. I did.

You're not necessarily wrong, but the people saying that bluntly are either the insufferable grindset dudes or conservatives living in Wyoming where rent is three ears of corn

Actually if you re-read it, I said "do your research" rather than "work hard", as I'll assume you already do.

Back to the topic at hand,

 xttz wrote:
"The UK needs to nationally pay better wages in order to improve Warhammer" is definitely a bold take.

More like "GW, a global company, should offer wages appropriate for their largest market so they can attract the best talent instead of the bottom of the barrel candidates who are desperate enough to take a lowball offer."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:
its playing warhammer for a living as part of it, its also being able to draw meaningful conclusions from the experience that GW can take and use to raise profits in some way

Exactly. The person GW needs is someone with a background in science or engineering, a good understanding of 40k (the easiest part TBH), and a level of PR skills that is rarely found in the analytical types. That's someone who easily has access to six figure salaries, with a path to high six figures as their career advances.

What GW will settle for is a bottom of the barrel fanboy who will tell management whatever they want to hear because "attitude matters more than skills", continuing their record of game design failures.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

What GW will settle for is a bottom of the barrel fanboy who will tell management whatever they want to hear because "attitude matters more than skills", continuing their record of game design failures.

Which is ultimately a weakness. I remember on another thread here Dakka posters said enthusiasm is important since skill can be developed but I strongly disagree. Someone needs a lot of skill first.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

What GW will settle for is a bottom of the barrel fanboy who will tell management whatever they want to hear because "attitude matters more than skills", continuing their record of game design failures.

Which is ultimately a weakness. I remember on another thread here Dakka posters said enthusiasm is important since skill can be developed but I strongly disagree. Someone needs a lot of skill first.

Yep. Enthusiasm over skill is fine when the "skill" in question is how to press the buttons on a cash register. As long as someone has the right attitude you can teach them how to do the job in an hour or two. But it's a profoundly stupid way to run a company when the job requires skills that take years of formal education to develop and years of industry experience to refine.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

What GW will settle for is a bottom of the barrel fanboy who will tell management whatever they want to hear because "attitude matters more than skills", continuing their record of game design failures.

Which is ultimately a weakness. I remember on another thread here Dakka posters said enthusiasm is important since skill can be developed but I strongly disagree. Someone needs a lot of skill first.

Yep. Enthusiasm over skill is fine when the "skill" in question is how to press the buttons on a cash register. As long as someone has the right attitude you can teach them how to do the job in an hour or two. But it's a profoundly stupid way to run a company when the job requires skills that take years of formal education to develop and years of industry experience to refine.

Look at the list of requirements for the role, they're asking for someone with that skillet. Anyone who is playing 40k to a remotely high level should understand probability, trends, general statistical anlysis, be able to monitor the community online, suggest ways for units/missions to play better.

Honestly this is the most frustrating "I'm an American middle manager" thread in a long time. They maybe want to hire someone in order to develop those skills, sometimes investing in someone with the right mindset and base skills to train them up is worth more than just picking existing candidates who come with baggage and egos.