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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/11 21:34:50
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Been Around the Block
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I'm kind of a tabletop newb in general and I don't know anything about my local scene, but I've always kind of preferred to build my dudes to look cool while trying to model them as I intend to use them.
I even magnetized the entropy cannons on my PBCs so I could switch them to plague spewers. In retrospect I don't know if I'll ever need those spewers.
I'm starting up collecting TSons, and I'm trying to keep them bolters or flamers but those mini guns they have are just too cool to not include so it's not really a question of if I'm going to use the bits I want.
The rule of cool is too much for me to ignore, hence why I can't bring myself to buy Typhus without a plan to convert his helm into something less goofy looking.
Is converting Typhus so he looks less goofy a step too far? Is WYSIWYG the dominating factor behind competitive players when they build their minis?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/11 21:36:30
Subject: Re:How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna
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I think you're a bit confused on what WYSIWYG means. WYSIWYG is about equipment matching. If a model has X/Y/Z in the rules then those things must be represented on the model. Converting a model's helmet to something better looking is purely an aesthetic thing that has nothing to do with WYSIWYG.
And yes, WYSIWYG dictates how tournament players build their models. Almost all tournaments require compliance with WYSIWYG.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/07/11 21:37:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/11 21:45:02
Subject: Re:How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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Can’t speak for my local area as such, but on a personal level, the golden rule is Don’t Take The Piss.
I’m OK with reasonable proxies.
For instance, the sole Rhino or Rhino chassis in your army standing in for a Vindicator. Or all your Autocannons “counting as” Lascannons. I can still, at a glance, have a reasonable idea of what I’m up against.
This I find allows opponents to play around with their list, trying out new combos and tactical theories before buying the appropriate models. That’s good for variety for both parties and there’s little downside to either.
What I will object to is “this Plasma Gun is actually a Meltagun, these two are actually Flamers, and this one is a Grenade Launcher”. Here it’s all too easy for me to lose track of what’s meant to be what, and indeed for a cheaty buttmunch of an opponent to take advantage.
If you’re using converted or scratch built models or units? I expect them to be roughly approximate in size and dimensions. I’m OK with them being a little bigger, and any benefit to your LoS is also a benefit to my LoS, and I’d expect you accept its now harder for you to gain cover etc.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/11 21:45:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/11 21:52:20
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra
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As long as a model is clearly equipped with the equipment you are using then it's WYSIWYG.
So for example, if you gave a Rubric a Soulreaper Cannon, you would be expected to use it as a Soulreaper Cannon and not a Bolter or Flamer.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/11 21:58:44
Subject: Re:How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I’m OK with them being a little bigger, and any benefit to your LoS is also a benefit to my LoS, and I’d expect you accept its now harder for you to gain cover etc.
Amusingly it's actually the opposite in 10th now, larger models make it easier to gain cover. Only 0.00001% of the model needs to be obscured so the larger the model is the easier it is to draw LOS to your target from the front of the model while keeping that tiny back corner behind a ruin.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/11 22:07:58
Subject: Re:How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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ThePaintingOwl wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I’m OK with them being a little bigger, and any benefit to your LoS is also a benefit to my LoS, and I’d expect you accept its now harder for you to gain cover etc.
Amusingly it's actually the opposite in 10th now, larger models make it easier to gain cover. Only 0.00001% of the model needs to be obscured so the larger the model is the easier it is to draw LOS to your target from the front of the model while keeping that tiny back corner behind a ruin.
how come just about every other game manages to make terrain more or less work and more or less make sense but GW after 10 editions still struggle with it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/11 23:02:39
Subject: Re:How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Been Around the Block
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leopard wrote: ThePaintingOwl wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I’m OK with them being a little bigger, and any benefit to your LoS is also a benefit to my LoS, and I’d expect you accept its now harder for you to gain cover etc.
Amusingly it's actually the opposite in 10th now, larger models make it easier to gain cover. Only 0.00001% of the model needs to be obscured so the larger the model is the easier it is to draw LOS to your target from the front of the model while keeping that tiny back corner behind a ruin.
how come just about every other game manages to make terrain more or less work and more or less make sense but GW after 10 editions still struggle with it?
Yeah I was a bit perturbed by what I saw when I read the rules for terrain and cover in the new 10th index.
I had a lot of fun basing my DG character models so they're almost a centimeter taller than they should be lol.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/11 23:09:13
Subject: Re:How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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It varies from person to person in my group. One guy uses Dire Avengers as Guardians as he doesn't like Guardians so doesn't own many, whereas another guy in my group who has literally built models during a game because they weren't ready yet (playing against half-constructed Repulsors and Custodes Bikes is a weird way to game). For my part, I don't field anything I cannot represent correctly on the table - if I don't own it, I don't take it, and I take only what I have.
leopard wrote:how come just about every other game manages to make terrain more or less work and more or less make sense but GW after 10 editions still struggle with it?
Because they constantly try to reinvent the wheel, do so via large pendulum swings, never learn from their mistakes, and fail at iteration every time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 00:09:47
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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In general model type and weapons are the things people want with WYSIWYG.
What a model is and what its armed with are the primary attributes of information most players can readily require and also readily identify.
Upgrades are generally not worried about because of a few factors
1) Many aren't represented as parts in official models
2) Some are internal and not even possible to model
3) Many are tiny details that are very easily missed, esp at 1ft away on a game table
4) Some have been upgrade parts and then just decoration and then upgrade parts again through various editions
5) The number of potential combos for upgrade parts on models is great enough and their impact/points cost small enough that its simply not practical to have a collection that features all potential options perfectly modelled. Furthermore its not practical to model them and only use a model in one combination thereafter.
Some people do have a favoured army and do model perfectly, but its not expected .
At its core WYSIWYG is about communication and clarity of information on the tabletop.
The other aspect is not being cheeky/insulting/cheating with conversions and poses and such. That's almost a separate conversation and gets a little fiddly in its own right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 11:44:38
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Been Around the Block
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A game with friends at the gaming club: not very strict - having some proxies to test a new unit or declaring one weapon is actually something else is fine.
Tournament games: full WYSIWYG. All weapons on the model match the list.
Conversions are always welcome, as long as it's clear what the model represents, is accurate, and is about the same size as the original.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 12:02:40
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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There is the loose rule in a lot of places in that base equipment is considered to always be present, even if not accurately modelled. So for example a tactical marine with 2 pistols is still recognised as being a rando with a bolter, or grenades on the model etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 12:22:56
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Be Clear, Be Consistent. If something isn’t wysiwyg, make sure your opponent knows, and make sure the change is the same thruout the army. Like mentioned above, no this one counts as X, but this other one counts as Y instead.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 12:27:49
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Weapons accurate, and all things of the same kind are the same type of thing. If things are different, but based around the same thing, it is suppose to have some sort of a mark that makes it easy to notice. Bases of the proper legal size. Besides that no one cares if unit X is GW, recast or from Scibor/Artel/etc.
There are some people that can get away with more then others, and I have seen maybe 3-4 custom made armies in my hobby life, where everything had to be explained pre game, but two belonged to store owners, one to an artist and one was made of own sculpted models by a student of ASP (polish art school) and her models and the way their way painted, were like on another level. Like comparing some random from a local sports events and a winner of gold medals at the olympics. Less models and more works of art.
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If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 12:37:05
Subject: Re:How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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H.B.M.C. wrote:It varies from person to person in my group. One guy uses Dire Avengers as Guardians as he doesn't like Guardians so doesn't own many, whereas another guy in my group who has literally built models during a game because they weren't ready yet (playing against half-constructed Repulsors and Custodes Bikes is a weird way to game). For my part, I don't field anything I cannot represent correctly on the table - if I don't own it, I don't take it, and I take only what I have.
leopard wrote:how come just about every other game manages to make terrain more or less work and more or less make sense but GW after 10 editions still struggle with it?
Because they constantly try to reinvent the wheel, do so via large pendulum swings, never learn from their mistakes, and fail at iteration every time.
you know, I think you sir have nailed it
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 12:47:56
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Fixture of Dakka
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It is not even that they reinvent the wheel. they do the same thing every edition. Each edition GW has to learn the lesson that A ignoring core mechanics will make an army unbalanced, one way or the other. B giving armies tons of free points/units ends in unbalanced game and the need for super lethality C ignoring or fixing random rolls in a game where one of the balancing factor, is suppose to be the dice roll, generates NPE type of games.
I have seen this three in 8th, and in 9th. And they are doing it again in 10th. And from stories told, I think it looked the same in prior editions. GW "rules problems" aren't based on lack of skill or an inability to write good rules. GW employees have the first and can do the second. They are just, according to other ex GW employees, partial to their pet factions, while not carrying at all about others. It is a systemic problem with the DT and how it functions. And as the chance of cleaning out the DT is zero, bar freak accidents, it will never change.
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If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 14:23:08
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Dakka Veteran
Dudley, UK
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I can't help myself, full WSYIWYG at all times or I feel bad!
OpFor wise, it's like paint: nice but not required and minimal confusion (we've used tokens to denote variant equipment for clarity: as a Warmahordes type, it's trivial clutter.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 14:27:49
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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In my experience of minis game communities generally WYSIWYG is almost 100% self-enforced, people feel much worse about proxying their own forces than their opponents ever do.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 15:47:24
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
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AnomanderRake wrote:In my experience of minis game communities generally WYSIWYG is almost 100% self-enforced, people feel much worse about proxying their own forces than their opponents ever do.
True. Usually people can only identify the different weapons of their own factions and will believe what they're told about others.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 15:57:35
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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AnomanderRake wrote:In my experience of minis game communities generally WYSIWYG is almost 100% self-enforced, people feel much worse about proxying their own forces than their opponents ever do.
I think that depends.
Sure, I suspect most players would prefer to play with the Right Models All The Time. Because the visuals are such a vital part to the whole. If they weren’t, we’d be playing with paper counters, or even playing entirely digitally. Nowt wrong with either there, but a different experience to using a fully 3d army you got painted up.
However. I think few folks would be against short term proxies. Like wanting to try a new equipment load out or whole unit before buying it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/07/12 20:33:50
Subject: How strict are WSYIWYG rules where you game?
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Malicious Mandrake
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What Mad Doc said (first)
Don't be a Richard.
Keep it simple
Cool rules!
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