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So, being a card-carrying Lutheran and having just celebrated Reformation Sunday (IE: the Sunday closest to and before Halloween) it got me thinking that St. Sebastian Thor would be the 40k Equivalent to Martin Luther.
You had the corrupt "Pope" figure (Goge Vandire), which mirrors Pope Alexander VI's abuse of power and Thor coming out against him, just like Luther pointed out the problems with the Catholic church at the time. Then later, the whole hunt for sebastian Thor echoes the church denouncing Luther as a Heretic. Last but not least, the church made Martin Luther eat worms! (Diet of Worms) which is similar to when Thor was brought in to assess if he was spouting heresy or not.
Looking at the Wiki, I really didn't se anything else that's a 100%-homerun reference to Luther. Thor was Ecclesiarch #292... Buuuut he could've just have been 295 to fit with Luther's 95 Theses.
It gets cloudy for me because the Age of Apostasy stories all have different tropes or origins- like the subtext of the "Joan of Arc" Sister Dominica vibe... But, a part of me still wants to see Space Wolves sitting down to a Reformation pot luck with Ludefisk and Lefse like all good Lutheran Norwegians should..

I think thats a stretch. Theres really not much similarity between them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also neither Luther nor Thor ever ate worms to my knowledge... thats not what the Diet of Worms was.

Yeah that's a bit of a stretch for specificity.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
So, being a card-carrying Lutheran and having just celebrated Reformation Sunday (IE: the Sunday closest to and before Halloween) it got me thinking that St. Sebastian Thor would be the 40k Equivalent to Martin Luther.
You had the corrupt "Pope" figure (Goge Vandire), which mirrors Pope Alexander VI's abuse of power and Thor coming out against him, just like Luther pointed out the problems with the Catholic church at the time. Then later, the whole hunt for sebastian Thor echoes the church denouncing Luther as a Heretic. Last but not least, the church made Martin Luther eat worms! (Diet of Worms) which is similar to when Thor was brought in to assess if he was spouting heresy or not.
Looking at the Wiki, I really didn't se anything else that's a 100%-homerun reference to Luther. Thor was Ecclesiarch #292... Buuuut he could've just have been 295 to fit with Luther's 95 Theses.
It gets cloudy for me because the Age of Apostasy stories all have different tropes or origins- like the subtext of the "Joan of Arc" Sister Dominica vibe... But, a part of me still wants to see Space Wolves sitting down to a Reformation pot luck with Ludefisk and Lefse like all good Lutheran Norwegians should..

Pretty sure there was a Luthor Huss in some GW lore somewhere. GW is never subtle when it cribs. Never.

If anything, he is closer to some of the reformer popes. Remember that Worms was the site of many historic meetings and documents, such as the Concordat of Worms in 1122.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
So, being a card-carrying Lutheran and having just celebrated Reformation Sunday (IE: the Sunday closest to and before Halloween) it got me thinking that St. Sebastian Thor would be the 40k Equivalent to Martin Luther.
You had the corrupt "Pope" figure (Goge Vandire), which mirrors Pope Alexander VI's abuse of power and Thor coming out against him, just like Luther pointed out the problems with the Catholic church at the time. Then later, the whole hunt for sebastian Thor echoes the church denouncing Luther as a Heretic. Last but not least, the church made Martin Luther eat worms! (Diet of Worms)

As a 'card carrying Lutheran' you gotta know that those two words aren't English and don't have any relationship with the modern English meanings.

A 'hunt' for Sebastian Thor doesn't match up to anything. Charles V demanded Luther come to Worms (a city) to a public meeting (a diet) and address his statements and writings (recant or reaffirm them in public). No one had to look for him, they knew where he lived and what he said. The Holy Roman Emperor demanded and Luther obeyed.

Voss wrote:
A 'hunt' for Sebastian Thor doesn't match up to anything. Charles V demanded Luther come to Worms (a city) to a public meeting (a diet) and address his statements and writings (recant or reaffirm them in public). No one had to look for him, they knew where he lived and what he said. The Holy Roman Emperor demanded and Luther obeyed.

It's a synthesis of several of the reformer popes. You can draw parallels to Avignon or the Borgias.

Luther was not just "denouncing" us catholics, it was a full blown fundamental, theological debate putting in question such things as, transubstantiation, affirming things the like of Sola scriptura, by sola fide...

Whereas as far as I am aware the 40k story depicts a political fight and not a theological one.

If you had to link it to an actual historical example, i'd say maybe look at Otto the Great lifting the machinations of roman nobles over the Holy Seat. However, he's not that much of a wide known figure so I doubt GW would have bothered in any capacity.

All in all, contexts wouldn't match too much.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Luther was not just "denouncing" us catholics, it was a full blown fundamental, theological debate putting in question such things as, transubstantiation, affirming things the like of Sola scriptura, by sola fide...

Yes. If it were supposed to be a parallel, Thor wouldn't become the head of the church, but rather break up the Ecclesiarchy and shatter the unity of the Imperium, which would then devolve into a collection of fragmented kingdoms and faiths fighting wars of annihilation.

He was a reformer, and after the initial opposition of the corrupt leadership, was victorious and subsequently canonized. Probably based on Hildebrand (later Gregory VII).

Wise note here, although again I doubt GW would actually think of Saint Gregory VII as, well, that's not really a widely known figure either.

But not impossible. You'd need to find whoever wrote that particular story and ask what was in his mind when making up a scenario!

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Wise note here, although again I doubt GW would actually think of Saint Gregory VII as, well, that's not really a widely known figure either.

But not impossible. You'd need to find whoever wrote that particular story and ask what was in his mind when making up a scenario!

GW has done some deep dives into Church history and there are some pretty obscure references scattered throughout the lore.

But it doesn't have to be Gregory VII, it could be any one of the reformer popes and is likely a pastiche of several of them.

Agreed. Although to be fair I never kept a record of said references so I might have seen and forgotten them. While others are staring you into the face.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Agreed. Although to be fair I never kept a record of said references so I might have seen and forgotten them. While others are staring you into the face.

I usually don't game much during summer, so there can be a 6-8 gap between games, and at my age, things slip, so refresher reading of my 2nd ed. books is required.

When I first got into gaming, I was irreligious, but that has now changed, so as I re-read the books I catch references I completely overlooked 25 years ago.

Voss wrote:

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
So, being a card-carrying Lutheran and having just celebrated Reformation Sunday (IE: the Sunday closest to and before Halloween) it got me thinking that St. Sebastian Thor would be the 40k Equivalent to Martin Luther.
You had the corrupt "Pope" figure (Goge Vandire), which mirrors Pope Alexander VI's abuse of power and Thor coming out against him, just like Luther pointed out the problems with the Catholic church at the time. Then later, the whole hunt for sebastian Thor echoes the church denouncing Luther as a Heretic. Last but not least, the church made Martin Luther eat worms! (Diet of Worms)

As a 'card carrying Lutheran' you gotta know that those two words aren't English and don't have any relationship with the modern English meanings.

A 'hunt' for Sebastian Thor doesn't match up to anything. Charles V demanded Luther come to Worms (a city) to a public meeting (a diet) and address his statements and writings (recant or reaffirm them in public). No one had to look for him, they knew where he lived and what he said. The Holy Roman Emperor demanded and Luther obeyed.

Diet to mean meeting or people is actually an old word in English too (by way of Old English and Old Norse), but it is obsolescent today and rarely encountered.

 Haighus wrote:
As a 'card carrying Lutheran' you gotta know that those two words aren't English and don't have any relationship with the modern English meanings.

A 'hunt' for Sebastian Thor doesn't match up to anything. Charles V demanded Luther come to Worms (a city) to a public meeting (a diet) and address his statements and writings (recant or reaffirm them in public). No one had to look for him, they knew where he lived and what he said. The Holy Roman Emperor demanded and Luther obeyed.

Diet to mean meeting or people is actually an old word in English too (by way of Old English and Old Norse), but it is obsolescent today and rarely encountered.

Okay people- it was A JOKE!! I know the Catholics didn't force Luther to eat Worms. I've been to Worms (Pronounced Vorms, because: German.) and Wittenburg cathedral but I was like 5. I was more invested in the fact it was raining most of the time and I couldn't play outside than any major spiritual or cultural landmarks.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
Okay people- it was A JOKE!! I know the Catholics didn't force Luther to eat Worms. I've been to Worms (Pronounced Vorms, because: German.) and Wittenburg cathedral but I was like 5. I was more invested in the fact it was raining most of the time and I couldn't play outside than any major spiritual or cultural landmarks.

Worms is most certainly not pronounced with a V.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
Okay people- it was A JOKE!! I know the Catholics didn't force Luther to eat Worms. I've been to Worms (Pronounced Vorms, because: German.) and Wittenburg cathedral but I was like 5. I was more invested in the fact it was raining most of the time and I couldn't play outside than any major spiritual or cultural landmarks.

Worms is most certainly not pronounced with a V.

Sure it is. As long as you're talking to an anglophone audience and don't want to get into phonology, vorms is the closest analogy to how Worms is pronounced in German.

 Geifer wrote:
Sure it is. As long as you're talking to an anglophone audience and don't want to get into phonology, vorms is the closest analogy to how Worms is pronounced in German.

This is one of those weird cross-cultural linguistic puns. A 'diet of worms" naturally sounds absurd to English speakers, but a "deet of vorms" is just a foreign thing.

As to the OP, it's interesting to look at GW's source material, which is indisputably derivative.