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I know Legion was written in 2008 before a lot of other lore. Still, it really bugs me that a pivotal decision in the Horus Heresy comes down to pure stupidity on the part of everyone's involvement.

The Cabal wants Alpharius to betray the Emperor so that Chaos would win and then, somehow, destroy itself. This is just wrong for so many reasons:

+ Chaos has existed for millions of years. I have a theory about Tzeentch being created by humans during the Dark Age of Technology. The rise of Tzeentch would lead to psychic mayhem, causing the Age of Strife. But even with that, Khorne and Nurgle would have been around for much longer than humanity and Slaanesh's creation has little to do with the human race. There is no reason to believe that humanity's extinction will somehow starve out Chaos. It didn't happen when the Old World was nuked by a falling moon in Warhammer Fantasy, and it can never happen in Warhammer 40k.

+ By the end of the Siege of Terra, Horus is essentially a puppet for Chaos anyway. He got shanked by Leman Russ, fell into a coma, and had a crisis of faith where his noble side became disgusted with what he had become, then the Chaos Gods, as well as Maloghurst, intervened to make sure Horus would be on the side of Chaos no matter what. It's not likely that Horus would have broken free unless the Emperor quite literally slays him.

+ The idea of a Chaos civil war leading to the extinction of humanity is laughable. The Imperium doesn't even include all of humanity by the time of the Horus Heresy.

+ If Alpharius had sided with the Emperor from the start, things would have worked out very differently. Even if I am being generous by having the Alpha Legion destroyed and Alpharius dead in the Dropsite Massacre on Istvan 5, there are still many ways in which the Loyalists would have gained the upper hand if not for Alpharius's betrayal, ultimately resulting in the Emperor besting Horus without getting mortally wounded in turn.

+ The whole Cabal crap really ruins Alpharius character. It does make sense that Alpharius would side with Horus because the two were the first Primachs to be found and probably share many secrets together. Instead of explaining the bond between Alpharius and Horus, we have to go with some senseless shenanigans.

I think this highlights one of the core issues of the Horus Heresy series, which is essentially one big exercise of explaining the noodle incident.

We know all the traitor primarchs fall to Chaos, but actually writing a compelling fall to Chaos for these supposedly super intelligent, post human demigods with enormous power is really difficult (it is difficult in general). So they mostly feel contrived. I personally agree that Legion is one of those examples. They were better left as mysteries.

It is supposed to look like Alpharius and Omegon are playing some 4D chess game to save humanity. Instead it just looks like they are rubes played for fools by a group of aliens who want to make sure humanity loses its position as top dog and stops genociding so hard. The aliens aiming for that makes perfect sense, the Alpha Legion primarchs being so gullible does not.

That’s not fair. No one can prove Calvin did that…

The original fluff was far better. That by the time of the Heresy the Legion was out of control, splintering, generating missions for itself and desperate to prove they were the smartest in room to picking fights, obviously or not, with the other legions. Because covert organisation goes out of control is a common trope. Instead we get the something like they were aiming for Admiral Canaris.

I dunno. I kind of like it.

I think they may have entered into the action in good faith. But…Chaos is Chaos, you can’t mess with it without it messing back. And so they have been become corrupted in their own way, playing games for the sake of playing games. And it’s possible the loss of Alpharius/Omegon caused irreparable damage to whatever grand plan was going on, as the remaining Twin no longer has an absolute equal as a naysmith type character. And if they were indeed one soul in two bodies? That could be a pronounced impact.

I like the concept it’s been so long all sight of the original goal is long, long lost.

I don't think anyone has an issue with the Alpha Legion (or part of it) attempting to act as double agents within the Traitor forces.

They generally have an issue with the reason for the Alpha Legion ostensibly deciding to be double agents being due to a single psychic vision shown by a secret cabal of aliens.

Stems from the fact that GW can't seem to tell Dan Abnett "no" which is fair does considering the caliber of writer he is.

The whole series is full of these Anakin Skywalker
"Hey turn evil!"
"OK"

kind of moments. I read Legion a few times, and Fulgrim, and it turned me off the whole series. As with Star Wars, I prefer my own imaginings of what happened in the universe's past over what they have written.

I actually think being repeatedly and constantly snubbed by the older Legions is a perfectly rational and satisfactory explanation for why the Alpha Legion might turn against them. They wanted to gain the respect of the older Legions and when they wasn't forthcoming despite their successes, the building resentment led to the Alpha Legion concluding they would gain it by beating the other Legions. Since those documented as snubbing them were all Legions that were loyalist (IIRC), that's why the Alpha Legion decided to side with Horus.

Iracundus wrote:
I actually think being repeatedly and constantly snubbed by the older Legions is a perfectly rational and satisfactory explanation for why the Alpha Legion might turn against them. They wanted to gain the respect of the older Legions and when they wasn't forthcoming despite their successes, the building resentment led to the Alpha Legion concluding they would gain it by beating the other Legions. Since those documented as snubbing them were all Legions that were loyalist (IIRC), that's why the Alpha Legion decided to side with Horus.

Not quite. Fulgrim hates the Alpha Legion because sneaky war is something the Emperor's Children view as way beneath them. Konrad Curze also considers the Alpha Legion a little better than the criminals he destroyed on his homeworld. I highly doubt the stoic and straightforward Mortarion and Perturabo would appreciate the Alpha Legion.

Iracundus wrote:
I actually think being repeatedly and constantly snubbed by the older Legions is a perfectly rational and satisfactory explanation for why the Alpha Legion might turn against them. They wanted to gain the respect of the older Legions and when they wasn't forthcoming despite their successes, the building resentment led to the Alpha Legion concluding they would gain it by beating the other Legions. Since those documented as snubbing them were all Legions that were loyalist (IIRC), that's why the Alpha Legion decided to side with Horus.

I agree, and I wish this was the route they'd gone with instead of Legion.

I think the FW team was more in favour of this interpretation, it is what they focussed on in the HH black books.

bibotot wrote:

Not quite. Fulgrim hates the Alpha Legion because sneaky war is something the Emperor's Children view as way beneath them. Konrad Curze also considers the Alpha Legion a little better than the criminals he destroyed on his homeworld. I highly doubt the stoic and straightforward Mortarion and Perturabo would appreciate the Alpha Legion.

But did they publicly say so in a way that could be seen as a public snub or humiliation? I don't recall. From what I recall from the old Index Astartes, it was Guilliman (maybe Dorn?) that publicly criticized an Alpha Legion victory for taking too long and being unnecessarily convoluted.

Iracundus wrote:

bibotot wrote:

Not quite. Fulgrim hates the Alpha Legion because sneaky war is something the Emperor's Children view as way beneath them. Konrad Curze also considers the Alpha Legion a little better than the criminals he destroyed on his homeworld. I highly doubt the stoic and straightforward Mortarion and Perturabo would appreciate the Alpha Legion.

But did they publicly say so in a way that could be seen as a public snub or humiliation? I don't recall. From what I recall from the old Index Astartes, it was Guilliman (maybe Dorn?) that publicly criticized an Alpha Legion victory for taking too long and being unnecessarily convoluted.

I thought pretty much every primarch had bad relations with the Alpha Legion with the noticeable exception of Horus the diplomat?

 Haighus wrote:
I think this highlights one of the core issues of the Horus Heresy series, which is essentially one big exercise of explaining the noodle incident.

This is the problem with more than just the Horus Heresy. I'd say it applies to pretty much every attempt at GW to expand upon historical lore, and how they approached introducing new lore.

The broad strokes approach that 40K had to lore for the vast majority of its lifespan created the impression of a vast, rich world. The reader fills in the gaps themselves and as a result are thinking about the world as they do so, the lack of concrete detail makes it feel like a puzzle for you to solve, to engage with. As GW has gone back and backfilled everything with ever more mundane details, that world has shrunk as there are less gaps for you to actually think about yourself, rather you are instead just told everything.

It's the wikification of a fictional world, where every detail must be accounted for to up the word count on the relevant pages. A large part of it has been driven by the fans themselves clamouring for more of these details. It's the meme from the good place about how human it is to make something you love worse just so you can have more of it.

 Gert wrote:
Stems from the fact that GW can't seem to tell Dan Abnett "no" which is fair does considering the caliber of writer he is.

To be fair, while Dan Abnett wrote Legion, many of the ideas in the novel came from Alan Merrett - who suggested some of the more crazy ideas according to Abnett

My issue with the whole premise of a single psychic vision was... why believe it at all?

The Imperium, at that time, was not the superstitious place we have come to know. I had a hard time buying into the idea this prophesy is perceived as the true and only future humanity has ahead of it.

Would have taken more character development for me to accept Alpharius was in a place where he was ready to accept that. Thought it more likely he would consider this some form of Xenos propaganda and kill the messenger.

Further proof that the short Legion bios in the 2nd ed Chaos Codex were superior to anything since.

It's why I actually don't like Dan Abnett's writing. He seems to have this constant thing for ignoring existing background just so he can "one up" things by introducing some new gimmick or sub-plot that tramples over everything else, just so he can be seen as special and making his mark on the 40K background.

It would have been a perfectly viable story to show jealousy taking root within the Alpha Legion as their efforts to gain the respect of other Legions is ignored, snubbed, or even publicly denounced. If they really wanted the whole wheels within wheels plotting or double agent schtick, then a xenos messenger or Chaos messenger could have been the Iago figure whispering half-truths into their ears. Eventually the Alpha Legion could have concluded they would show how right they are by subverting Horus's rebellion from within, while others either don't get the message or outright want to defeat the loyalists directly to show the worthiness of the Alpha Legion.

Personally, I probably wouldn't have an Alpha Legion army if they'd leaned into the whole snubbed pride thing. Falling to chaos because the other legions didn't clap for you enough was pretty cringe when the Iron Warriors did it.

Legion suffers from its wtf ending that then barely goes anywhere by the end of the series, BUT it does kind of work as a way to get the AL in an ambiguous position. My read wasn't that the AL were actively pursuing either of the presented prophecies but instead trying to come up with a third option. Because thinking outside the box and finding an unorthodox solution is the legions whole thing. It's even highlighted by the aliens in Legion and stated to be one of the main reasons the aliens brought the prophecy to the twins specifically.

And I'd argue the Omegon side projects, hints at Horus being peeved at them, etc. that we see later in the HH can all be interpreted to support that idea, but that's its own tangent.

Basically, people like me wouldn't be interested in a legion defined more by its pride than its brains. And if we were, we'd play Iron Warriors or EC or something. The wheels-within-wheels thing can be a bit cringe (especially when it ultimately goes nowhere), but it *does* give the AL their own distinctive flavor and appeals in a way that petty sibling rivalry wouldn't have.

Iracundus wrote:
I actually think being repeatedly and constantly snubbed by the older Legions is a perfectly rational and satisfactory explanation for why the Alpha Legion might turn against them. They wanted to gain the respect of the older Legions and when they wasn't forthcoming despite their successes, the building resentment led to the Alpha Legion concluding they would gain it by beating the other Legions. Since those documented as snubbing them were all Legions that were loyalist (IIRC), that's why the Alpha Legion decided to side with Horus.

That's more or less the Iron Warriors plot hook though. Perty feels snubbed by the others and like his talents aren't appreciated, so he joins the traitors, marches on Twrra, tears down Rogals defenses proving that his skill at siegecraft is superior to Rogals skill at building defenses, and once his point is proven he basically quits the battle.

The whole "covert organisation goes out of control" trope as someone else called it is the story of AL, the cabal aspect is just the catalyst for what led them in that direction.

I think you’re doing the Iron Warriors a great disservice there, and over simplifying their motivations.

Perturabo was himself a terrible father. But his Legion wasn’t treated fairly. They’d do the Donkey work, and do it very well. Yet time and time again, the laurels went to another Legion. And that’s not treatment that was experienced by their immediate contemporaries, the Imperial Fists.

Now that’s not say they’re therefore perfectly justified so STFU. Bitterness can turn childish very easily.

But I’m sure we’ve all had jobs where despite our own sterling efforts, our boss saw fit to reward someone who did far less, but was there at the end of a project to hog the glory. Granted we don’t turn Heretic, we just quit and hope for better treatment from our new employer. Yet their resentment is well founded.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think you’re doing the Iron Warriors a great disservice there, and over simplifying their motivations.

Perturabo was himself a terrible father. But his Legion wasn’t treated fairly. They’d do the Donkey work, and do it very well. Yet time and time again, the laurels went to another Legion. And that’s not treatment that was experienced by their immediate contemporaries, the Imperial Fists.

Now that’s not say they’re therefore perfectly justified so STFU. Bitterness can turn childish very easily.

But I’m sure we’ve all had jobs where despite our own sterling efforts, our boss saw fit to reward someone who did far less, but was there at the end of a project to hog the glory. Granted we don’t turn Heretic, we just quit and hope for better treatment from our new employer. Yet their resentment is well founded.

That's a bit different from the Alpha Legion situation. There they are like the younger brother that does things and wants the older brothers to notice. "Look at me! Look at what I've done and what a good job it was!", only they get ignored or get told "Meh, you didn't do a good job. I could have done better/faster." Nobody directly takes their glory.

Sorry, reading comprehension fail. Are you comparing Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors to the younger brother?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


But I’m sure we’ve all had jobs where despite our own sterling efforts, our boss saw fit to reward someone who did far less, but was there at the end of a project to hog the glory. Granted we don’t turn Heretic, we just quit and hope for better treatment from our new employer. Yet their resentment is well founded.

I'm living this as we speak.

Honestly, the whole thing points to the problem that to write a super smart character that's always one step ahead requires a degree of cleverness and writing good enough to keep the audience with you through all the twists.

If Alpharius/Omegon had just pretended to go along with the Cabal (because who'd trust filthy xenos?) had some sort of double cross of the Cabal screwing them over and inadvertently caused knock on effects that furthered the traitor's cause maybe there could have been a story about tangled webs of deception and how it all serves Chaos in the end.

Instead Legion ended up a very bland book with a Mary Sue and nonsensical character actions to fit a particular subplot inserted in the the Heresy series.

I dunno, I think Legion is pretty good and the AL plot line is solid.... except that none of it ever really goes anywhere in subsequent HH books. It's like a dropped thread.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sorry, reading comprehension fail. Are you comparing Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors to the younger brother?

The Alpha Legion is the younger brother. I see a difference between their situation and the described situation of the other Legions taking the glory from the Iron Warriors after the Iron Warriors did the hard work.

The Alpha Legion won its own victories but the others didn't give the Alpha Legion much attention and kind of just ignored them, or IIRC from the Index Astartes articlse, claimed the Alpha Legion could have done it better/faster.

Fair!

They’re also the least Astartes like of all the legions.

Whilst their efforts in the modern era have become horribly tropey (literally no one ever notices them, and they usually get away with it) they are effective.

Almost equivalent to Blood Axes, in that they absolutely can wreck face in a “proper” fight, leaving the others baffled at all the sneaking around.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Fair!

They’re also the least Astartes like of all the legions.

Whilst their efforts in the modern era have become horribly tropey (literally no one ever notices them, and they usually get away with it) they are effective.

Almost equivalent to Blood Axes, in that they absolutely can wreck face in a “proper” fight, leaving the others baffled at all the sneaking around.

I don't have the Index Astartes handy to reference but I recall they tried to show the other Legions how the Alpha Legion fought:

They did their usual intrigues and covert operations and such, eventually throwing the target world into such confusion that it fell with relatively little effort and few Imperial losses. Expecting to be praised, they were instead criticized by I think it was Guilliman saying that the Alpha Legion had taken too long, wasting valuable time, when the Ultramarines could have taken the world more quickly in a more direct fashion. He might have also criticized that the world was left in such a mess that it would have taken longer to get it back in order and contributing to Crusade forces, than if the Alpha Legion had just gone in directly like the Ultramarines would have.

I could see such an example (or others like it) leading to lasting resentment within the Alpha Legion. Not only had a textbook example of their fighting style not been praised, but instead it had been criticized by their snobbish older brothers who claimed basically that they could have done better and faster.

As per the 2nd edition Chaos codex, the Alpha Legion as the youngest Legion wanted to show itself worthy and equal to the older Legions. Even if their ways were different, they wanted recognition that their ways were better or at least just as good. I could see how such an attitude and then the resentment could lead to them deciding to defeat the loyalist Legions in order to humble them.

Honestly, every other time the AL shows up in the Heresy books is just infinitely better than anything in Legion.

It sucks that it was so bad because they really do have some cool moments where you see their forces picking apart both sides to further the aims of the XXth.