Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think I'm at a disadvantage with Narnia as I never read the books, although my brother did have a copy of Dawn Treader. In that regard I enjoy both adaptations, and at a bit of a loss as to what the "controversy" was about in the story being changed, and some digs at Christianity.

Damn, I love both versions of Aslan - we have a running joke at work that any new starters should be welcomed personally by Liam Neeson, but wearing the BBC production "costume".

If I had to pick my favourite film it would be hands down Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Its very much a "Sinbad" movie at heart and Will Poulter was very comical, but I did notice many complaints regarding the changes to the book upon its release 14 years ago.

A bit like the new adaptation of Dune. Turned up to a screening and bumped into someone I knew and it was the first time to the Herbert Rodeo for them, but for me I had spent decades eating up the Lynch film, TV series, movie, games, novels and spin-off novels. He was impressed as it was a fresh cinematic experience, but I came away...very disappointed - the brilliance of the book gutted completely, and an even more dull version of the first half of the 1984 movie. While I walked out of the cinema heartbroken, my friend was very excited for the second half to come.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One villain whose entire on-screen existence is slipping in and out of rehab?

Gul Dukat, from Deep Space Nine.

Ooooooooh he’s a right bar steward, isn’t he! But a charming one, and when the mood and benefits take him? A useful and valuable ally to have.

I mean... he's a complete villain. I think he really exemplifies the cardassian attitude of cutthroat ambition but also their geniality and love of conversation and good times. I think he likes Sisko, and that prevents him from really finishing the job, not any shreds of morality. He also seems to go insane by the end of the series.

Villains that I think might be interesting to learn more about:

Captain Hook from Peter Pan/Hook. The movie Hook seems polarizing, with some people loving it, and others thinking it's a loud flop, and I"m the latter. However... there's this weird aspect of the story that apparently Peter Pan eventually left Never Never land, grew up, had kids... and then Captain hook came and kidnapped his children? Is Hook a metaphor for Adulthood/Old Age? Is he an actual pirate? What's his story? Why does he chase after peter Pan's kids?

Warden Norton from Shawshank Redemption. more for the Challenge, but especially if you believe in the "Andy Dufrense actually killed his wife theory," it might be ijnteresting to see the story from the Warden's eyes, even if he's clealry the worst person possible.

What makes Gul Dukat awesome is that he's not your standard weekend/kids/american comic evil/antagonist.

There are many times where he's just a guy doing his job; a father; a citizen; a person pushed to the edge. Whilst he's always got that menacing angle to him; you see him in a lot of different situations. This makes him all the more real because he's not just a fully loaded Dr Evil of Evil doing Evil things all the time he's on screen.

You see him outside of that; you see him do evil things for good reasons and more.


I think that's really why he's one of my favoured antagonist characters because we get to see so many dimensions of him.


I always say the best antagonists are the ones who you can imagine outside of their evil moments. Where you can imagine them at home relaxing; going out with family; doing regular bog standard boring living stuff.

You also never really know which Dukat you’re getting, or which will close out a show.

He’s mercurial, but always with some kind of motivation, however insane it might be.

And even when he is being a proper wrong’un, you absolutely can see where he’s coming from with it, even we don’t think his ends justify the means.

It all makes him such a central part of why DS9 is so compelling. Though, to be fair? His arc in particular really benefits from the pretty modern option of Binge Watching, as you get a better perspective of just how tricksy he is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And hey, a character of such mercurial nature is really, really, really easy to write quite spectacularly badly. Where their whims are entirely slaved to the need of the story, creating an inconsistent anus, who’s only doing this week’s bad thing, because this week’s episode needs someone to do it.

Which is why he's awesome as a villian! But I don't think we need to see his side of the story. We've seen it. He's a normal guy with endless ambition, zero morals, and plenty of charisma.

Unless.... you want to ask the real hard question and wonder if the Cardassian occupation actually did benefit the Bajorans in the long run by advancing their technology level. We see a lot of hints that while the occupation was brutal, it was not genocidal, and Gul Dukat found such tactics unsavory.. He saw himself as guiding Bajor. Maybe the occupation was the result of a Bajoran civil war that invited the Cardassians in, and the resistance has covered that up?

Eh, should be a thread unto itself, but my quick answer?

On advancing Bajor? That kind of assumes the existing society wanted and/or needed to advance.

Whilst our perspective on that is naturally quite one sided? It’s not as if Bajor was struggling before the “Occupation”. Nor was it inherently regressive.

The whole thing about your Pah (sp?) determining your career had been abandoned by all but the most, let’s say devout, of Bajorans by that stage after all.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Eh, should be a thread unto itself, but my quick answer?

On advancing Bajor? That kind of assumes the existing society wanted and/or needed to advance.

Whilst our perspective on that is naturally quite one sided? It’s not as if Bajor was struggling before the “Occupation”. Nor was it inherently regressive.

The whole thing about your Pah (sp?) determining your career had been abandoned by all but the most, let’s say devout, of Bajorans by that stage after all.

I mean, I guess if the threat is about seeing things from the villians POV, I"m just trying to figure out something that isn't just "I'm a bastard."

Personally, I think gul dukat is the villian that least needs rehabilitation. We know who he is.

He’s definitely a strong villain, in that even when we do empathise and sympathise? We really don’t want to. Even when his actions are objectively quite heroic.

And it’s done so well. Across episodes he’ll descend into Moustache Twirling Malevolence. But in a given episode, be redeemed. Or do something redeeming, but close out with “but then again, being a dick is so much more fun”. And it never really feels forced.

I think it helps that, at times (his little weirdo cult on Terok Nor), he becomes really quite pathetic.

There's old PS1 game called "Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver", that I played yesterday in the first time in 20-odd years, and I reckon there is something here for the big screen...




...

Right group, wrong Cardassian.

Gul Madred from "Chain of Command, Part II," which is the 11th episode of the sixth season of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

In this episode, Captain Jean-Luc Picard is captured and tortured by the Cardassian Gul Madred, who repeatedly asks him how many lights he sees.

It would be awesome to have the story from his point of view.

SamusDrake wrote:
There's old PS1 game called "Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver", that I played yesterday in the first time in 20-odd years, and I reckon there is something here for the big screen...
...

There is an HD remaster releasing in a few days of that game and its sequel.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Gul Dukat, from Deep Space Nine.

Nah we don't need a positive spin on folks running concentration camps and ethnic cleansing, we get that every day in US media already.

 Ahtman wrote:


There is an HD remaster releasing in a few days of that game and its sequel.

Certainly deserves it.

SamusDrake wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:


There is an HD remaster releasing in a few days of that game and its sequel.

Certainly deserves it.

It sure does! The full story of Kain and Raziel is one of the greatest video game stories ever told imo, and the voice acting is still some of the best of all time. I played the original Soul Reaver so many times when it first came out that at one point I could quote most of the narrative scenes from memory. I would love to see something more done with it, but fear that anything created based on it now will struggle to live up to the original.

If you are unaware, there was also a kickstarter a few months ago for a comic graphic novel that is a prequel covering Raziel's early years after being made into a vampire. I did back it in spite of any misgivings about how they may bungle introducing new lore into the series, and the campaign itself had an overwhelmingly strong response, reaching less than 50k shy of 1.5 million in funding (which was way more than the 25k goal). There is a decent chance the massive interest in both that kickstarter and the Soul Reaver remaster pre-orders will show that enough people are interested in seeing more for it to be a profitable pursuit. However, my hope for what comes out of such is very hesitant and I can not help but be reminded of this potentially relevant quote from Kain himself: "The first, bitter taste of that terrible illusion: hope."

Even decades on...

"You will tell me, even if I have to beat it out of your lips...little brother!"

...or something like that. Bloody good dialogue for a game.

Why is no one mentioning the epic half-century long rehabilitation of Godzilla?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Why is no one mentioning the epic rehabilitation of Godzilla?

Godzilla has already been both the good guy and the bad guy, multiple times.

 Ahtman wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Why is no one mentioning the epic rehabilitation of Godzilla?

Godzilla has already been both the good guy and the bad guy, multiple times.

I was adding to some of the 1st page mentions of other great villains who already got a rehabilitation.

How about a movie from Sauron's perspective, about him simply trying to make order out of the chaos of a world left by his uncaring father Eru Illuvatar. Maybe he starts solving crimes across Middle Earth for the love of a fair shieldmaiden from Edoras. Wait....that's the tv show Lucifer, nevermind, lol.

 ikeulhu wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:


There is an HD remaster releasing in a few days of that game and its sequel.

Certainly deserves it.

It sure does! The full story of Kain and Raziel is one of the greatest video game stories ever told imo, and the voice acting is still some of the best of all time. I played the original Soul Reaver so many times when it first came out that at one point I could quote most of the narrative scenes from memory. I would love to see something more done with it, but fear that anything created based on it now will struggle to live up to the original.

If you are unaware, there was also a kickstarter a few months ago for a comic graphic novel that is a prequel covering Raziel's early years after being made into a vampire. I did back it in spite of any misgivings about how they may bungle introducing new lore into the series, and the campaign itself had an overwhelmingly strong response, reaching less than 50k shy of 1.5 million in funding (which was way more than the 25k goal). There is a decent chance the massive interest in both that kickstarter and the Soul Reaver remaster pre-orders will show that enough people are interested in seeing more for it to be a profitable pursuit. However, my hope for what comes out of such is very hesitant and I can not help but be reminded of this potentially relevant quote from Kain himself: "The first, bitter taste of that terrible illusion: hope."

The original Soul Reaver is an absolute marvel on the Playstation. It's incredible that a game so popular and groundbreaking isn't more fondly remembered. I think ending on a cliffhanger only for the sequel to drop alongside some of the most groundbreaking titles of the next generation definitely caused it to get overshadowed.

Personally, I am tired of revitalizing villains. In this modern era, we need to be reminded that some evils and their ideas should not be tolerated or given quarter.

 Easy E wrote:
Personally, I am tired of revitalizing villains. In this modern era, we need to be reminded that some evils and their ideas should not be tolerated or given quarter.

I think you just condemned us to a “Jefferson Davis: Misunderstood Loveable Scamp”.


Or maybe: “Haman: Unsung hero of Shushan.”

Your Friend: Games Workshop



Honestly, I think it's time for someone to paint the most horrific monster in a positive light: Th3 Internet Troll.

Jeff Davis all ready got a rehabilitation arc along time ago.

 Easy E wrote:
Jeff Davis all ready got a rehabilitation arc along time ago.

"Jeff Davis" was Grant's horse.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, some of the classic villains need to be added to the list of those already made sympathetic.

1. Vlad Dracul. Did his duty to his God, and when his beloved wife believed he died in battle took her own life, was driven mad with Grief when told that self same God would’ve condemned her to hell. And then followed a series of bad decisions, but all triggered by grief and betrayal.

2. Imhotep. We love who we love. Sure it’s not the done thing to rub another man’s rhubarb, but come on. Talk about an over reaction.

Vlad's gotten the rehab treatment with 1992's Bram Stoker's Dracula and the horrible Tom Cruise Dark Universe Dracular movie.
Imhotep doesn't need one. He was fairly grey in Fraser's The Mummy and even more so in the following films.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Easy E wrote:
Personally, I am tired of revitalizing villains. In this modern era, we need to be reminded that some evils and their ideas should not be tolerated or given quarter.

I thought the modern era was one of tolerance and understanding.

trexmeyer wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Easy E wrote:
Personally, I am tired of revitalizing villains. In this modern era, we need to be reminded that some evils and their ideas should not be tolerated or given quarter.

I thought the modern era was one of tolerance and understanding.

At risk of dipping into politics, tolerating intolerance just leads to MORE intolerance, not less. Some things ARE evil, and should not be tolerated or made out to be less evil than they are.

Things were better when Venom was a villain and not an Anti-hero. We were a proper society, with proper values, and a proper buffet at Pizza Hut.

 Ahtman wrote:
Things were better when Venom was a villain and not an Anti-hero. We were a proper society, with proper values, and a proper buffet at Pizza Hut.

Venom has the problem of being a bully villain. He's just a big mean guy with a grudge that picks on the hero. That's initially cool... right up until the hero beats him in a fight (which he has to sooner or later) and he loses his threat factor. At worst, he'd just become a bully with a grude and at worst, an example of why some people just can't be left free. The original Ultimate run really suffered there with Hulk Norman just repeatedly showing up to beat up a child until he killed him. Definitely not the best version of the character.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Things were better when Venom was a villain and not an Anti-hero. We were a proper society, with proper values, and a proper buffet at Pizza Hut.

Venom has the problem of being a bully villain. He's just a big mean guy with a grudge that picks on the hero. That's initially cool... right up until the hero beats him in a fight (which he has to sooner or later) and he loses his threat factor. At worst, he'd just become a bully with a grude and at worst, an example of why some people just can't be left free. The original Ultimate run really suffered there with Hulk Norman just repeatedly showing up to beat up a child until he killed him. Definitely not the best version of the character.

Why do you want all villains to be heroes? Is it your hatred of quality pizza buffets?

 Flinty wrote:
Somehow, the Emperor returned, but was really just trying to fit out a fleet of glorious party wagons!

Palpatine! The Musical

The story of a young man with incredible gifts and a love of jazz dance, trapped in a cold world of dull-as-dishwater dialogue!