Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

That is quite inconsistent in the lore. Similarly, the lore is also inconsistent about whether they have recoil or not.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Similarly, the lore is inconsistent.

You could have saved yourself two thirds of your post

Hey, there are things the lore -is- consistent about, contrary to popular belief!

It's not a long list, but it exists!

I can think of one, the skill of Karskins is pretty consistent when they aren't the main character of the books they feature in, though I haven't read the Fall of Cadia stuff, but in Cadian Blood, Gunheads and Malleus, they're pretty consistently portrayed as elite troops.

Loved Kasrkin in Malleus. On the other hand I also liked how Hereticus suggested they're not top threat even among unaltered human soldiers. It's a big galaxy and those mercs were a handful.

I always thought that the point of terminator armour was to basically to give an individual the same level of protection as a tank on the battlefield. So lasguns and autoguns wouldn’t do more than take off a bit of paint

Back in the old lore the ability to make terminator armour had been lost and the armour was so thick that it couldn’t be reverse engineered.

Same with dreadnoughts.

Comparable. Not the same. And not to replace tanks.

Just the best armour developed that was suited to mass production, and would all but ensure survival in extreme environments, including boarding actions and assorted Zone Mortalis.

Also, terminator armour still needs to accommodate the Marine within, so has things like joints, which tanks don't really have for the crew compartment.

So a mobility kill removing a track on a tank could take the leg off a terminator... which is probably survivable for a Marine, but is going to take them out of the mission more comprehensively than knocking the track off a tank is likely to do.

That said, strictly speaking nothing is impervious, so if you had an endless supply of lasguns and kept shooting them continuously at the same spot on a tank or frankly even a titan, it will eventually go through. Eventually. Not on battlefield timescales though.

 Haighus wrote:
That said, strictly speaking nothing is impervious, so if you had an endless supply of lasguns and kept shooting them continuously at the same spot on a tank or frankly even a titan, it will eventually go through. Eventually. Not on battlefield timescales though.

While technically true, giving a Guardsman a kitchen knife and telling him to hack open a reinforced bulkhead feels like more a thought experiment in physics than anything else.

Of course, the fun thing about Titans is how horribly vulnerable they are to Infantry.

Yes, there’s the constant and, ahem pressing danger of getting all stood on and turned into a splutchy little pancake. No doubt about that.

But a few Krak Grenades, or ideally a Meltabomb or three in and around where the feet connect? And you’ve a surprising good chance of bringing the whole thing down. And thanks to its sheer size, even just moderate damage, a breach of structural integrity for a supporting piston and that can be enough. Once that foot has taken a few steps, the sheer weight of the Titan will do the rest.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Lasguns are also oddly survivable weapons. Due to instant cauterisation? You’re not about to bleed out from a Lasgun wound. So, provided you’re not instantly killed (headshot, heart shot etc), and you don’t go into shock? You’ve a reasonable chance of surviving with even rudimentary medical attention compared to solid rounds.

Also, Lasguns had a -1 Save mod in 2nd Ed and Necromunda.

This is based in a misunderstanding of what "instant cauterisation" means in terms of trauma to the body. All that heat that is imparted to the wound has to go somewhere, and where it goes is deeper into the body. So yeah, you're not bleeding from the surface of the wound, but instead your deeper tissue is cooked and those blood vessels have burst due to the blood being flash boiled etc. Deep burns result in massive fluid loss and shock, which is just as deadly as blood loss, and can result in very severe infections and sepsis.

Think of it like being electrocuted by a high current, such as lightning for an extreme example, you don't die from blood loss at the points of entry and exit of the current, you die from it cooking your internal organs. That is "instant cauterisation" in action.

See my comment about shock.

Though given they’re described as having sufficient oomph to blow an unarmoured limb off?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which of course is where your armour comes in.

Even when breached, it’s going to be the material taking the brunt of the heat. It’s still gonna hurt. You’re absolutely going to be taken out of action for a bit. But at least your organs haven’t gone “ping”.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See my comment about shock.

My point is that it isn't about just shock. The trauma of the burn which will penetrate much deeper than the actual "wound" itself is just as dangerous as open bleeding, in fact ostensibly moreso as you *cannot do anything about it*. With bleeding, you can apply pressure to slow it, even a tourniquet if needed. With a deep burn? Nothing can stop your body from losing all the fluids in the burnt tissue to the burn. The only hope you have is to replace those lost fluids, which means an IV quickly. Even if you get to an aid station or hospital, you cannot surgically fix a burn like you can a gunshot. A nicked artery can be stitched, even replaced with a surgical graft, burnt flesh cannot be fixed as easily, and the nature of a burn makes it a massive vector for infection compared to a gunshot.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Of course, the fun thing about Titans is how horribly vulnerable they are to Infantry.

Yes, there’s the constant and, ahem pressing danger of getting all stood on and turned into a splutchy little pancake. No doubt about that.

But a few Krak Grenades, or ideally a Meltabomb or three in and around where the feet connect? And you’ve a surprising good chance of bringing the whole thing down. And thanks to its sheer size, even just moderate damage, a breach of structural integrity for a supporting piston and that can be enough. Once that foot has taken a few steps, the sheer weight of the Titan will do the rest.

To some extent this is true, but not necessarily as much as you think.

To quote the Warlord Titan's Towering Monstrosity rule flavour text, from 30k:

Among the god-engines of the Titan Legions, some are of such colossal size, incalculable power and superior design that they are all but impossible to harm from ground level. Their vital systems are elevated far above the heads and hulls of those upon the battlefield below it, atop legs that are plated with metres-thick armour to prevent it from being assaulted by infantry or laid low by explosive charges.

If you're curious, mechanically, this rule meant that unless you were a Titan, you only hit the Warlord on 6s in melee (exception for Knights and non-Titan superheavies, who instead hit on 5s maximum, and other Titans who are unaffected).

Which feels about right. The vulnerable parts do exist on its feets. But are well protected. But once you’re scuttling about down there? There’s not a whole the Titan can do about it other than try to move away. It might take a while to find or create an exploitable vulnerability, but if there’s nothing else harassing you? It’s time you’ve probably got.

Which is why only a fool fields a Titan against infantry without some form of smaller support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See my comment about shock.

My point is that it isn't about just shock. The trauma of the burn which will penetrate much deeper than the actual "wound" itself is just as dangerous as open bleeding, in fact ostensibly moreso as you *cannot do anything about it*. With bleeding, you can apply pressure to slow it, even a tourniquet if needed. With a deep burn? Nothing can stop your body from losing all the fluids in the burnt tissue to the burn. The only hope you have is to replace those lost fluids, which means an IV quickly. Even if you get to an aid station or hospital, you cannot surgically fix a burn like you can a gunshot. A nicked artery can be stitched, even replaced with a surgical graft, burnt flesh cannot be fixed as easily, and the nature of a burn makes it a massive vector for infection compared to a gunshot.

Not sure if you posted whilst I was editing? Against bare or unarmoured flesh? Yes.

But once armour is a factor, it’s going to absorb much of the heat. Not necessarily enough to stop you being taken out the immediate fight. But possibly enough to reduce the injury to “mere” surface burns. Painful and debilitating, yes. But not lethal.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s not a whole the Titan can do about it other than try to move away. It might take a while to find or create an exploitable vulnerability, but if there’s nothing else harassing you? It’s time you’ve probably got.

Or step on you

Infantry really do not want to be in melee with a Titan in Horus Heresy. In HH2.0, which that rule is from, the Warlord gets ten free WS9 S10 AP2 Stomp attacks in addition to whatever else it's doing (bad news if you're down there).

Additionally, this is what Ardex-Defensor weapons are for.

Titans still want support, but attacking a titan with infantry is incredibly desperate.

Not at all. They can get inside the shields, and wreak havoc with the right weapons.

For instance, Meltaguns. Titans are hard, and don’t go down easy. But a Meltagun, fired at very short range will do it a mischief. And again, you “just” need to structurally compromise it, and the Titan’s weight will do the rest. Meltabombs are probably your best option, especially in a built up environment where the Titan is likely to be moving fairly slowly.

Ardex are only on Warlord and up.

A Warhound can, depending on the wide environment, just run away from you. A Reaver? Not quite so easily.

And so Infantry remain surprisingly threatening to Titans. Real nutters could hitch a ride on the foot. The dangers of going squish in some mechanism or other exist, and may be quite high. But when the benefit is ridding yourself of a major threat, and arguably dealing a serious blow to enemy morale? Nutters would see it as worth it,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not at all. They can get inside the shields, and wreak havoc with the right weapons.

It absolutely is desperate. HH3.0 even has a system for infantry using "Swarm Assaults" on Titans using the header TACTICS OF DESPERATION (emphasis not mine).

It can do damage, but is also immensely risky. To quote the 3.0 rules:

When confronted by an immense battle titan, most infantry weapons are utterly incapable of penetrating even the weakest of its armour plating. Such troops can either flee before such a monstrous engine of war, or clamber onto its superstructure and hope to find some tiny flaw that they might exploit to slow its advance across the battlefield.

If you risk using a Swarm Assault, your unit -will- take damage at the end of it, too. It is only a question whether it will be harsh or crippling.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which feels about right. The vulnerable parts do exist on its feets. But are well protected. But once you’re scuttling about down there? There’s not a whole the Titan can do about it other than try to move away. It might take a while to find or create an exploitable vulnerability, but if there’s nothing else harassing you? It’s time you’ve probably got.

Which is why only a fool fields a Titan against infantry without some form of smaller support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See my comment about shock.

My point is that it isn't about just shock. The trauma of the burn which will penetrate much deeper than the actual "wound" itself is just as dangerous as open bleeding, in fact ostensibly moreso as you *cannot do anything about it*. With bleeding, you can apply pressure to slow it, even a tourniquet if needed. With a deep burn? Nothing can stop your body from losing all the fluids in the burnt tissue to the burn. The only hope you have is to replace those lost fluids, which means an IV quickly. Even if you get to an aid station or hospital, you cannot surgically fix a burn like you can a gunshot. A nicked artery can be stitched, even replaced with a surgical graft, burnt flesh cannot be fixed as easily, and the nature of a burn makes it a massive vector for infection compared to a gunshot.

Not sure if you posted whilst I was editing? Against bare or unarmoured flesh? Yes.

But once armour is a factor, it’s going to absorb much of the heat. Not necessarily enough to stop you being taken out the immediate fight. But possibly enough to reduce the injury to “mere” surface burns. Painful and debilitating, yes. But not lethal.

You're right, armour and ceramite absorb impact from Las shot and heat. But then you need to move that heat somewhere. So with disciplined FRRSRF you'll get a well cooked marine. No matter how good termal control and cooling inside power armor, at some point it would overheat and start bend. And then overheated part( chest piece for example rip itself from main body.

Which came up earlier

Individual or sporadic lasfire is little threat to Power Armour. Yes it’ll leave a mark, but the armour will cool down.

When it’s massed, and you’re taking multiple hit in a comparatively short space of time? The heat will build and at some point fundamentally compromise your armour’s integrity. Probably not to the point of completely melting it, no. Well. Yes. But the occupant would be long dead by the time it got that hot. But as the surface heats up, it’s going to lose resistance, allowing each subsequent hit to do more and more damage.

The lasgun had a -1 ASM in 1st and 2nd ed, comparable to a bolter. Autoguns had no ASM.

Given that the imperium's highest powered armour penetrators are all lasers, it's not out of the question that a lasgun has AP capability.

From my brief research, you require 2.2KJs of energy to vapourise 1 sq centimetre of water. This is actually really high. Water has one of the highest specific heat capacities of any molecule. It's why the earth's oceans are capable of storing a huge amount of heat before they increase in temperature. But that means when they do increase in temperature, they've absorbed a ridiculous amount of heat to get there.

So if you assume a lasgun beam is 1cm wide (which is quite wide, about 0.4cal), it would need at least that much energy to burn a pock mark 1cm deep into human flesh. Given we are told that they can do more damage than that, I imagine that a single blast might be at least 10x that amount. - 22kjs.

Steel on the other hand doesn't have a particularly high specific heat. But does have a high boiling point.


So a lasgun that can vapourise the water in your body to cause your arm to be blown off, should actually be pretty good at melting steel.

Yeah, metals are easier to increase in temperature than water pretty much universally. I presume power armour is not made from metal for this reason.

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah, metals are easier to increase in temperature than water pretty much universally. I presume power armour is not made from metal for this reason.

But it's made of metals, adamantium and plas steel is a metals. And it's have ceramite layer over it. But once ceramite is crelacked we have ol good oven for space marine

Ceramite seems to be a combination of various metallic and ceramic components to make a very strong material.

The problem that it runs into from a real world perspective is that the chemistry and physics which makes a material an effective thermal insulator is usually at odds with those that make for effective armour against stuff like projectiles, because you are trying to do very different things, physically.

Consider the heat shield tiles used in the Space Shuttles, for example. Extremely effective at protecting the Shuttle from the heat of re-entry, yet an impact from a piece of insulating foam during launch was enough to damage the tiles on Columbia's wing such that the protection was weakened enough that the shuttle burned up on re-entry.