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I have been flicking through Imperial Armour Volume Ten - The Badab War - Part Two, pg. 32 and The Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal, pg. 204 and it distinctly mentions that Chapters can, if they have the resources (and presumably, money) 'harden' suits of Power Armour and stick better/additional life support systems and protective plats onto them.


Hardened Armour

Breacher squads employ specially customised and augmented
suits of power armour (usually variants on the Iron pattern)
modified by the Legion's Techmarines to better withstand the
rigours of siege warfare, lethal environments and close-quarter
boarding actions in space. The servos and power systems of such
armour are overstrained as a result of these modifications, and
require constant extensive maintenance between battles. This
deficiency was one of the factors that ultimately led to the Tactical
Dreadnought Armour project.

Hardened armour automatically counts as being Void Hardened
(see page 173) in missions where this is appropriate, and failed
armour saves against template and blast weapons may be re-rolled.
Units with Hardened Armour reduce the distance rolled for
charges, sweeping advances and run moves by 1".


and


All suits and models of Space Marine power armour in
general service are proofed against adverse atmospheric
conditions and designed to function as void suits in their
own right, as well as augmenting their wearer and shielding
their bodies from harm in battle. However, where protracted
void-fighting is expected, or local void conditions are
particularly hazardous (such as in high-rad drift zones,
solar corona shadows and micro-meteoric storms) it has
been the practice since the Great Crusade to increase the
capacity of Astartes armour to withstand these hazards.
This is known as void hardening, and often incorporates
such features as extended air supply canisters rigged to
the armour, enhanced coolant systems, ablative fracture
plates and attitudinal correction units. Dependant on
tradition and available resources, such modifications
can either be obvious and somewhat bulky, or as in the
case of Veteran Brother Hal'sar’s power armour, nearly
seamlessly integrated into his mark VII ‘Aquila’ armour
as befits the artisanship for which the Salamanders
Chapter is famed. In this case in particular, the extensive
additional heat dispersal system the armour has been
enhanced with has been stylised into the form of the
armorial draconic and serpent forms adorning his armour,
which glows a livid red when operating at high capacity.


So my question is, is there anything stopping a particularly wealthy Chapter from paying out their nose and upgrading as many Marines as they could with Hardened Armour equivalent? Even if the Marines in particular were not deployed to fight in a zero-g or hazardous environment?

It slows them down. Probably less sneaky too, for Raven Guard and similar peeps.

Also, given how the Imperium functions, it's not just "Spend money, get product." It's a giant mess of traditions and religious ceremony. So sure, a Chapter COULD Void Harden all their Marines' armor. But, according to their traditions, that honor must be earned by defeating at least a dozen enemies alone in space combat. Is it sensible? Absolutely not. But the Imperium isn't sensible.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It slows them down. Probably less sneaky too, for Raven Guard and similar peeps.

Also, given how the Imperium functions, it's not just "Spend money, get product." It's a giant mess of traditions and religious ceremony. So sure, a Chapter COULD Void Harden all their Marines' armor. But, according to their traditions, that honor must be earned by defeating at least a dozen enemies alone in space combat. Is it sensible? Absolutely not. But the Imperium isn't sensible.

But then by that logic a Chapter might also demand that everybody wears heavy clanky VHA and damn the stealth because great grand daddy beat the crap out of rando enemy #234321424134 most impressively by throwing discretion out the window and everybody must now follow that ideal most religiously regardless or not if stealth was actually called for.

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It slows them down. Probably less sneaky too, for Raven Guard and similar peeps.

Also, given how the Imperium functions, it's not just "Spend money, get product." It's a giant mess of traditions and religious ceremony. So sure, a Chapter COULD Void Harden all their Marines' armor. But, according to their traditions, that honor must be earned by defeating at least a dozen enemies alone in space combat. Is it sensible? Absolutely not. But the Imperium isn't sensible.

But then by that logic a Chapter might also demand that everybody wears heavy clanky VHA and damn the stealth because great grand daddy beat the crap out of rando enemy #234321424134 most impressively by throwing discretion out the window and everybody must now follow that ideal most religiously regardless or not if stealth was actually called for.

Yes. That is also a possibility.

The Imperium wins because it has massive pools of resources to draw on (and a healthy does of being the protagonist faction), not because they spend their resources well.

Edit: May I ask why this came up? Is it something you're looking to do for a custom chapter or similar?

Because if so, go nuts. Void Harden everyone, and just make a cool reason for why.

 JNAProductions wrote:

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It slows them down. Probably less sneaky too, for Raven Guard and similar peeps.

Also, given how the Imperium functions, it's not just "Spend money, get product." It's a giant mess of traditions and religious ceremony. So sure, a Chapter COULD Void Harden all their Marines' armor. But, according to their traditions, that honor must be earned by defeating at least a dozen enemies alone in space combat. Is it sensible? Absolutely not. But the Imperium isn't sensible.

But then by that logic a Chapter might also demand that everybody wears heavy clanky VHA and damn the stealth because great grand daddy beat the crap out of rando enemy #234321424134 most impressively by throwing discretion out the window and everybody must now follow that ideal most religiously regardless or not if stealth was actually called for.

Yes. That is also a possibility.

The Imperium wins because it has massive pools of resources to draw on (and a healthy does of being the protagonist faction), not because they spend their resources well.

Edit: May I ask why this came up? Is it something you're looking to do for a custom chapter or similar?

Because if so, go nuts. Void Harden everyone, and just make a cool reason for why.

All the questions I ask are all part of research and fact-finding for a ongoing narrative mini-crusade RPG session i'm running.

Gotcha.

Given how big and varied the Imperium is, I'd recommend figuring out what's best for the campaign from a gameplay/fun point of view first, and then figure out why the fun answer is the case later. Since you can justify basically anything in the 40k universe.

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:
I have been flicking through Imperial Armour Volume Ten - The Badab War - Part Two, pg. 32 and The Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal, pg. 204 and it distinctly mentions that Chapters can, if they have the resources (and presumably, money) 'harden' suits of Power Armour and stick better/additional life support systems and protective plats onto them.


Hardened Armour

Breacher squads employ specially customised and augmented
suits of power armour (usually variants on the Iron pattern)
modified by the Legion's Techmarines to better withstand the
rigours of siege warfare, lethal environments and close-quarter
boarding actions in space. The servos and power systems of such
armour are overstrained as a result of these modifications, and
require constant extensive maintenance between battles. This
deficiency was one of the factors that ultimately led to the Tactical
Dreadnought Armour project.

Hardened armour automatically counts as being Void Hardened
(see page 173) in missions where this is appropriate, and failed
armour saves against template and blast weapons may be re-rolled.
Units with Hardened Armour reduce the distance rolled for
charges, sweeping advances and run moves by 1".


and


All suits and models of Space Marine power armour in
general service are proofed against adverse atmospheric
conditions and designed to function as void suits in their
own right, as well as augmenting their wearer and shielding
their bodies from harm in battle. However, where protracted
void-fighting is expected, or local void conditions are
particularly hazardous (such as in high-rad drift zones,
solar corona shadows and micro-meteoric storms) it has
been the practice since the Great Crusade to increase the
capacity of Astartes armour to withstand these hazards.
This is known as void hardening, and often incorporates
such features as extended air supply canisters rigged to
the armour, enhanced coolant systems, ablative fracture
plates and attitudinal correction units. Dependant on
tradition and available resources, such modifications
can either be obvious and somewhat bulky, or as in the
case of Veteran Brother Hal'sar’s power armour, nearly
seamlessly integrated into his mark VII ‘Aquila’ armour
as befits the artisanship for which the Salamanders
Chapter is famed. In this case in particular, the extensive
additional heat dispersal system the armour has been
enhanced with has been stylised into the form of the
armorial draconic and serpent forms adorning his armour,
which glows a livid red when operating at high capacity.


So my question is, is there anything stopping a particularly wealthy Chapter from paying out their nose and upgrading as many Marines as they could with Hardened Armour equivalent? Even if the Marines in particular were not deployed to fight in a zero-g or hazardous environment?

Your quotes explain why- there are trade-offs.

The hardened suits require more maintenance. This means they are not suited to protracted engagements without good resupply, like operating behind enemy lines. It also stresses logistics more, although for a resource-rich Chapter that would be less of an issue. That said, supply lines can be interrupted and hardened armour suffers more if that happens.

The suits are physically slower and less mobile. This can lead to lower survivability if Marines cannot cover ground as quick to reach cover or enemies, it can slow down the taking of objectives which can lead to various knock-on effects, it makes it harder for the Marines to run down fleeing enemies and destroy them, and it may also make retreating harder (a typical Marine action is a precision hit-and-run strike that needs extraction before enemy reinforcements arrive).

All of that for making the armour more durable and better able to cope in void environments. That trade-off can be worth it for environments where avoiding incoming fire is often impossible and mobility is reduced anyway- like boarding actions, bunker clearing, underhives etc. Essentially variations on tunnel fighting and/or assaulting prepared defenses over open ground. It is especially worth it when vacuum or gas attacks might be a threat.

Otherwise? Hardened armour is likely to cause more problems than it solves.

I agree with Haighus

"Money" is irrelevant on the scale of the Imperium, it's all about material and manufacturing resources and logistics

So if a chapter had access to the materials required to void harden all their suits, COULD they do it? Absolutely.
Will there be tradeoffs? Also absolutely. decreased movement, increased strain on logistics, etc

WOULD a chapter do this? sure, if they had a reason to. It's more likely that they'd do it for specialised squads or even a company rather than the entire chapter, but at that point it's just a question of scale.

Is it really relevant to your RPG whether 10, 100 or 1000 marines have void hardened armour?

Well. MkIII “Iron Armour” is Void Hardened MkII armour. An improvement of sorts over MkII’s peculiar deficiencies, but not quite a solution (hence MkIV came along with many design improvements and refinements).

But note the description in your quote text. It overstrains the servos, leading to greater maintenance demands.

That is the bottleneck in your supply chain. Whilst Marines do take care of their own armour, you still need Techmarines and the Armoury for the really technological bits. Unless I dare say you’re akin to Iron Hands, and you’re inclined toward tech fiddling as a whole.

So, with MkIII being an ongoing product, if comparatively rare and archaic as such things go? That’s seems your obvious starting point. Perhaps during its founding, it inherited MkIII only, perhaps from existing stockpiles on Terra, or recovered from a long lost Chapter’s homeworld etc. And ever since it’s become tradition and a mark of Chapter Pride that they’re able to keep that armour in tip top condition.

Charax wrote:
I agree with Haighus

"Money" is irrelevant on the scale of the Imperium, it's all about material and manufacturing resources and logistics

So if a chapter had access to the materials required to void harden all their suits, COULD they do it? Absolutely.
Will there be tradeoffs? Also absolutely. decreased movement, increased strain on logistics, etc

WOULD a chapter do this? sure, if they had a reason to. It's more likely that they'd do it for specialised squads or even a company rather than the entire chapter, but at that point it's just a question of scale.

Is it really relevant to your RPG whether 10, 100 or 1000 marines have void hardened armour?

Yes. Because i've run into people, both here and IRL who absolutely will not accept the premise unless there is enough evidence or plausibility.

The trade off in maintenance and other issues would make it impractical for a full chapter. But 40k is such a vast space, anything that is possible is probably happening somewhere.

I could see a void based chapter, no homeworld, just the fleet doing something like this. Created and tasked for patrolling the space lanes. Recruiting from orbital habs and ship crews. Maybe never even touching soil. There is more then enough work for a chapter just keeping the skies clear.

Agreed. A specialist anti-piracy chapter dedicated to boarding actions and void war are is well within the realms of possibility.

I think we’d also see such a Chapter making wide use of Boarding Shields.

Not only do they provide vital extra protectyness when, well….boarding an enemy ship? But the shields themselves help reduce wear and tear on the Power Armour, adding further utility. And they’re not exactly high technology.

Yes, you can incorporate some kind of field to add to the overall protectyness, but I’m not persuaded that’s a necessity. Nice to have if you’ve got them in sufficient numbers, sure. But by no means a required element.

So no objection to my understrength demi-squad of [i]three Tactical Space Marines guarding a street barricade just so happening to have suits of hardened Power Armour?

Because that's what my notes have at present, the metaphorical three musketeers (except they're all tactical space marines with bog-standard boltguns) standing behind a barricade, wearing VHA armour, slinging bolt rounds down the street at renegade guardsmen

Nope. They can fit into any of the archetypes already discussed in the thread. As with the Guard, marine contingents go where they are needed, not necessarily somewhere they matches their usual speciality.