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I'm upgrading my Khorne 40k army to be very daemon-heavy, and I've started wondering - do the icons always need to be modeled on? I can understand why it makes sense to stick a banner or whatever onto a champion for squads, but does a daemon prince or chaos lord really need any more bling tacked on just to show that he's carrying an icon, or is it safe to assume that it's stashed away in there along with the heaps of skulls, bones, and the giant daemon weapon?

Friendly games, probably not.
Tournaments... to be on the safe side make sure you have something on the model you can point to and say "that is the icon".

For an independent character it?s probably not necessary. For a guy in a squad absolutely. Its wargear and if the guy carrying it dies, you lose the ability to summon with that unit. Just like with a Lascannon or something, your opponent needs to know who has it.

Just a note-If you don't have a summoning Icon, you can summon off the aspiring champion.

Skyth said it, makes it a lot easier. It is enough to point out at the start of the game who carries an icon if it is not obvious.

Really? My codex states that it is supposed to be modeled, and goes on to say that if not carried by the champion, then you treat the icon bearer like a guy with a heavy weapon. But there's nothing in there exempting the champion from having a modeled icon if he's the icon bearer.

My copy of the codex also states that you need an icon to summon. Can you quote where yours says differently?

supabeast - If I were to play you, I'd expect you at least tell me which ICs have icons. It is wargear and is obviously important for summoning. Since it's possible for an IC to not have an icon, I'd like some indication if they can summon or not.

skyth - If you don't have a summoning icon, you can't summon. You can't just simply summon off the AC unless he is the one carrying the icon. Each squad gets one icon (unless it's Chosen and you buy a Daemon Icon), the AC is assumed to carry it unless you give it to a trooper. P12 - "Any CSM model in the unit may carry its icon which should be shown on the model. If not carried by the unit Champion, treat Unit Icon bearers as heavy weapon troopers...". Are you getting ACs confused with being the Daemon Host for Greater Daemons? Please let me know if I've missed something in the Codex.

I always just say that the champion has the icon. Alot of people I know play this way, and it is easily misconstrued as, They don't need an icon because you have a champion.

Just remember that if you give the icon to another trooper besides the champion, he can be killed by torrent of fire or mind war or any other nonsence, and then you are screwed.

Well, so can the champion. If you give the icon to someone else you're not putting all your eggs in one basket.

You're also then forced to make a choice, which sometimes is a bad thing.

An Icon bearer is a good modelling opportunity though.

However you spell it, no icon = no summoning.

just put a little red dot on the icon bearers base. there you go its modelled on now.

While you're at it, don't bother glueing the arms onto your models. I'm sure this and the red dot idea will enhance both the look of your army and your opponent's enjoyment of the game.

Or not.

Why would you even post that suggestion, Beef?

What if the Icon is a necklace the champion/squaddie is wearing? Or some nifty flashy thing on his belt? Would that count? What if it was something you specifically added (ie: a necklace pendant or something dangling from his belt). How about that?

Just playing devil's advocate here. I'm much more of a modeller, but I really dont like going back to tweak old figures just because GW has arbitrarily changed something (again) to make old figures obsolete so as to sell yet more toys.

the reason i said that is as nyarlathotep667 says what if the icon is a neclace or a pair of underpants. or whatever. it could be a small mole on the side of the marines face. there is no description or definition of what the icon should look like so anything can be used. so you dont need to model it just say "that scratch on my marine is the icon."

While I was playing the devil's advocate, I really would like to know if the Icon can be the necklace or nifty flashy object on the model or something similar that was specifically added (but otherwise relatively innocuous) would count. I wouldn't, however, suggest "that scratch" or mole is the icon, since there is nothing "iconic" about such, while a bracelet, necklace or other jewlery and/or chaos fashion accessories most certainly could be.

Im usually enough of a sport to show my opponent what Ill be summoning also, I always state who has an icon. Since Icons are free to chaos squads, they all get em.

I like to use WHFantasy chaos unit banners and icons. That way it's totally obvious.

to nyarlathotep667
the icon can be anything you want. So it can be a neclace or a chain or anything, It does not have to be a particular size. it can be as big/small as you like. Most people use banners but that does not meen thats what an icon always looks like.

the_trooper - You can only have 1 icon per squad.

Beef - everyone who plays in the leagues I run is required to be WYSIWYG and all 3 of the chaos players use something "showey" to differentiate them from their squad brothers. A mole, or a dot on the base is NOT enough.

actually it is enough. the rules dont say they have to be showy enough. they just have to be represented so as long as i say before the game which one of my models has the icon and he can be diffrentiated from his squad thats enough so a red dot on his base is more than enough. obviously if you want to you can be all showy about it but thats only if you want to.

It says it has to be modeled. Does painting a dot sound like modeling to you?

Obviously the bare bones minimum is doing SOMETHING that allows your opponent to distinguish which one the icon bearer is during the game. If you paint a dot, or splash a little color on his base in the midst of your unpainted squad, one could concede the point that you have satisfied the minimum requirements.

I (and I daresay most players) would consider it lame, lazy, and unimaginative, but that's our subjective judgement. I don't imagine your opponents care to press you on the point, because it's always awkward to tell a guy that his army (or even a part of it) or his modeling is lame. I will guess, with little fear of contradiction, that they would enjoy the game more if you put a little more effort into your modeling.

my modeling is average and my squads can always be distinguished with as to who has the icon. however it does not have to be a banner or such, it can be a veryu small trinket, thats my point.

The rules specify that it has to be modeled, and that the reason for that is so your opponent can distinguish the model during the game. If you fulfill those requirements, you?re in the clear as far as the rules are concerned.

My point is that making the icon ?a very small trinket? or a dot of red paint is obviously not ideal. It is less attractive, less interesting, and much easier for your opponent to miss. If your opponent can?t see it easily, it?s skirting or possibly crossing the line of acceptable, and why would anyone want to encourage that?

Posted By Foda_Bett on 09/10/2006 8:53 AM
the_trooper - You can only have 1 icon per squad.

Beef - everyone who plays in the leagues I run is required to be WYSIWYG and all 3 of the chaos players use something "showey" to differentiate them from their squad brothers. A mole, or a dot on the base is NOT enough.

By my saying "They all get them" I mean every squad gets one.  

It may be less ideal, but I am with beef on this one. As long as its identifiable it meets criteria.