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A close-combat codex, but a shooty army list... nope don't like it.

I mean, sure, the DC will be evil... if you roll well. If you roll too well, you're gonna have some awful fragile squads. And pray for no Black Rage when you need that crucial lascannon shot.

If you're gonna do this I'd replace your tornados with 3 drop pod furiosos to serve as antitank, crowd control, and some backup CC fighting (heavy flamer, EA, meltagun) (gonna need to eke some points out, but...). Pretty sure my recollection that furiosos are Elites is correct.

Drop the razorbacks and get something less horrible with them. They are seriously awful. I'm sure they'll do fine, so not saying your list is pathetic, however, you could do a lot more with 300+ points. A squad or two of assault marines without the red thirst limitation (and + Meltabombs) to help out with the death company's problems would be fine.

I just don't see that AV11 lascannons really complement this list at all. If your razorbacks don't have lascannons then why bother? You have plenty of heavy bolters in your list on those baals.

Posted By Longshot on 09/08/2006 11:24 PM
If you're gonna do this I'd replace your tornados with 3 drop pod furiosos to serve as antitank, crowd control, and some backup CC fighting (heavy flamer, EA, meltagun) (gonna need to eke some points out, but...). Pretty sure my recollection that furiosos are Elites is correct.

Drop the razorbacks and get something less horrible with them. They are seriously awful. I'm sure they'll do fine, so not saying your list is pathetic, however, you could do a lot more with 300+ points. A squad or two of assault marines without the red thirst limitation (and + Meltabombs) to help out with the death company's problems would be fine.

I just don't see that AV11 lascannons really complement this list at all. If your razorbacks don't have lascannons then why bother? You have plenty of heavy bolters in your list on those baals.

I think 4 Tornados can out perform 3 Furiosos any day. First off, they are cheaper and have much, much more mobility. They also can't get bogged down in assaults, and they're nearly immune to being taken down in h2h. Furiosos can easily be taken down by any squad with a hidden powerfist, and really don't have enough attacks to work as crowd control. The Tornado's seem to provide much better crowd control, as 4 assault cannons and 4 heavy bolters per turn seem much better than 3 heavy flamer shots. In addition, the Tornados start their effectiveness from turn 1, while the Furiosos start whenever they make it on the table. The Tornados are also very good at tankbusting, as an assault cannon has better chances of damaging of vehcile than a lascannon (except vs AV 12, open topped, skimmer).

I agree about the Razorbacks not being a good value, but being able to protect my troops against small arms fire, hormagaunts, and many assault units make them worth the time. They can unload to destroy tanks, and between the 7 assault cannons (3 twin linked), 15 heavy bolters (5 twin linked), and the 5 lascannons, I can easily eliminate the enemies anti tank quite easily. Having the entire army mounted gives me quite a few advantages.

With the Death Company, I should have an assault unit that will pretty much destroy anything I throw it at. Consiering that the rest of the army is mounted in transports, is a skimmer, or a battletank, kind of puts me (with lack of a better word) immune to assaults. After the enemies anti tank ability and heavy armor are eliminated, the Space Marines can hop back into the transport, and sit there. The army can then move 6 inches back to stay away from assaulting units, the whole time shooting at full effectiveness. Againsted Nids, Chaos Daemons, Orks, this will be very devistating. For my army, the less units that can get chewed up in assault the better. The DC will take care of themselves, and if they do get Tatical Squad, its only about 100 pts of infantry.

Thanks for the C & C, and keep it coming. What armies do you think I would stuggle against?

 

-el1

Re: Tornados vs. Furiosos.

1. Placement. Tornados don't go where they want. They worry about being shot before they get to shoot.
2. Heavy flamer vs. Genestealers/Gaunts/IG/Tau/etc in cover >>> assault cannon/heavy bolter
3. Meltagun at 6" > assault cannon versus Av 12+, particularly if things can be penetrated
4. 6 AV12 vehicles in an army with 3 AV 13 tanks is better than 4 AV10 skimmers. Because skimmers eat heavy bolters, and dreadnoughts and marines laugh at them. So all heavy bolters will train immediately on your skimmers.
5. Tornados start giving up VPs from turn 1. Furiosos land right where you want them to and meltagun something or heavy flamer it. And then force your opponent to shoot it to death or be assaulted.

Razorbacks protect you from small arms fire and assault? What they do is let you get pinned for a turn when your vehicle explodes. If you're not inside of it, it simply gets ignored while the enemy kills all your scoring units, which is not terribly hard.

5 lascannons and 7 assault cannons 'easily eliminate enemy tanks?' You will deal at most 4.5 damage results to AV13 if you shoot your entire army at it. You will probably kill a predator or two in a turn and shake/stun the other. That's if you go first. And all your assault cannons are in range.

You have sufficient antitank, but when you remember than 1/3rd of your antitank guns are on Av10 skimmers and another 25% of them are on tanks with a 30" effective range, it isn't looking so hot.

Remember the DC's got Red Thirst. Which means they are lurable. And one battlecannon shot can make them essentially worthless. (edit: Except you've got a chaplain so I am slowed in saying anything about red thirst. S'what I get for not owning every codex in the game yet)

Your army will not be able to beat Godzilla nids, anything that shoots better than you (iron warriors, any space marine army, most Tau lists, Necrons,) or anything with enough assault guys to overwhelm you. What're you going to do against footslogging orks exactly?

Imagine 120 orks with 5+ cover saves marching at you with a fist full of rokkits and a pocket full of powerklaws.

The fundamental mistake you're making is in pretending your landspeeders count for your gun totals. You might as well just pretend their guns are one shot.

On a related note, I believe that Bloodangel won the 2004 Baltimore GT with an BA army that featured LC Razorbacks. I remember that his rationale was twofold.

1. Any anti-tank shots spent against them were shots not taken at the Death Company or his LRC w/honor guard or his Vindicator, and

2. They were lascannon shots that weren't rendered useless by a black rage roll.

His particular army had two very nasty close combat units coupled with a disgusting amount of long range firepower. He was accused of being "unfluffy," but kicked the crap out of most of his competition.

Sal.

I agree with longshot here. You're army might struggle against armies with large numbers of assault troops.

Depending on the DC roll, I've found that my assault oriented templar lists can usally overwhelm death company units in close combat or tie them up with fearless (in close combat) troops. I think demon bomb could hurt you too. The daemonetts will eat the DC for breakfast and their mobile units will summon packs near your firing line. Your assault cannons will fail to kill enough chaos marines to shut down their heavy weapons and plasma guns, which will wear down your land speeders.

I think the 3 baal predator combination could work, but if I want 30' power I would run vindicators instead. Let your landspeeders go after enemy armor and distract heavy weapons, their speed sometimes lets them get side armor shots.

If the razorbacks have lascannons, that's a totally different story. They are then at least worth considering.

He's got heavy bolter razorbacks, which are completely worthless.

Taking transports makes this army escalation capable, which is cool. e.g. the whole army starts in reserves. I can see the logic there.

Not really convined the Baal is better than a trilas predator would be, or a Las/Hb predator. 48" range is nice. Anti-skimmer is what this army is missing, and against AV12 skimmers a twinlinked lascannon beats an assault cannon and does it from longer range if I recall correctly.