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Given that most people have an issue with how 40k plays and the rules involved, would it not be an idea to create a ruleset created by the members of DakkaDakka?

I don't know about the mechanics of how it would work, but you could run it along the lines of the living rulebooks or Wikipedia. Perhaps something like this:

A group of core editors to review the suggestions

These suggestions are then posted and if there are a number of suggested rules for a certain area, then a vote is set up.

Once all collated the rules are published for review, then finally released for all.

Would this work?

 

One dakkite did just that and launched the universal game Aetherverse which unfortunately has more or less sputtered and died.

Creating a new rule set is very hard, getting it accepted by other players is harder still.

I more modest (but still radical) idea would be to use an existing SF ruleset like Dirtside or Stargrunt. GW has always made good fluff and miniatures but never was strong is writing balanced and playable rules. Using rules from a company that shows a commitment in that area just makes sense.

Vor got great reviews but is OOP and probably in limbo forever while the creator and FASA fight over who owns what.

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 09/09/2006 6:19 AM
One dakkite did just that and launched the universal game Aetherverse which unfortunately has more or less sputtered and died.

Creating a new rule set is very hard, getting it accepted by other players is harder still.

I more modest (but still radical) idea would be to use an existing SF ruleset like Dirtside or Stargrunt. GW has always made good fluff and miniatures but never was strong is writing balanced and playable rules. Using rules from a company that shows a commitment in that area just makes sense.

Vor got great reviews but is OOP and probably in limbo forever while the creator and FASA fight over who owns what.

Although the VOR rulebooks do show up on Ebay pretty regularly, and fairly inexpensively.

Shockforce is another OOP game that can be found on Ebay that lots of people have apparently used to port their GW figs over to a new rules set.

I liked Aetherverse, and I hope they get back on their feet, but it needed a lot of fine-tuning...

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 09/09/2006 6:19 AM
One dakkite did just that and launched the universal game Aetherverse which unfortunately has more or less sputtered and died.

Man!  I forgot about him and Aetherverse.  Does anyone know if he is still around?  Or if there is any way to contact him about his rule book?

http://www.triskelegames.com/av_home.php

there's a downloadable version too.

I got it a year or two back but since I was in Guyana with no one to play with there was little point in learning the rules.

Before writing a new set you've got to consider the basic question of why people don't like the current rules.

Is it because they are badly organised, badly explained and difficult to play without extensive FAQs?

Or is it because they are not basically good and interesting rules?

I personally think it's a bit of both.

It's obvious that 40K desperately needs a rewrite to eliminate the FAQ list put out by the Adepticon guys. But many players are dissatisfied with other aspects of the game such as the rigid UGO/IGO system, the importance of assault, the weakness of vehicles, and so on.

The problem with changing the rules to address these points is that you quickly start to change the balance of the game. Reducing the importance of assault would invalidate many points values across the army lists. Tau would obvously benefit a lot. So it leads you on to revising all the codices as well.

It should be possible to change the UGO/IGO system without unbalancing the game, since it would affect both sides equally.

Ha haa! It seems the Squats survive in the Aetherverse!

Vor also had a race of midget bikers who are great mechanics.

So we know what happened to them. the Maelstrom ate them.

It's not so much a case of re-writing the rules, but adding stuff or tweaking them. Having scanned through the GW forums, and the game development section, there does appear to be areas that a lot of people would like changed.

Perhaps more of an advanced ruleset, then a change. I know people have an issue with how tanks work and how easy it is to take them out, perhaps add a weather chart to bring in shooting modifiers or even a FAQ that makes sense.

Honestly, I wouldn't have much of a problem with the current rules if they were written clearly, without so many loopholes. If you think things are confusing now, given their current record, imagine what it would be like if they decided to make more sweeping changes. Then, even if they tried to redesign certain sections of the rules and it backfired, we'd still have the benefit of a playable system to fall back on.

I've got Aetherverse, and I think it's a good start. FWIW, he's talking of a revision.

I think an alternate ruleset is needed, and that exact thought has been bouncing around in my head for a while. Kilkrazy makes a good point, whether the point is the fix the game, or make more invasive changes to how it works. I think the biggest problems with this sort of effort would be making something useful enough that people play it and still not enough of a "GW Rip" that it attracts legal attention.

I'd some to see something "open", like what's been done with various d20 roleplaying products. It ironic that GW has made the rules for Bloodbowl, Mordeim, etc free, even though the games don't sell enough models to warrant "real" support, and that stuff like the Blood Bowl rules comittee make for a tighter, more balanced ruleset. I think half the problem with people trying to do alternatives out there is the attempt to make a profit. I won't decry GW for trying to make money from their labor, but I think putting out glossy books may not be the best avenue for a solid ruleset, and it's not the direction "we" should try to emulate. What I'd love to see is a wiki -style site where people could submit there rules, and read others for free, in a fasion a little more organized than followng threads in "proposed rules". Add a bug-tracking component in there to track people's issues with the wording and balance of the rules. If there ended up being a "Dakka Standard Rules" as well as a "Warseer Standard Rules", so be it. Having a clear, printable, up to date and edited pdf would be a godsend.

honestly I'd rather see something like a d20 for miniatures or a GURPS for miniatures. Something with a publisher and editor and author(s). That way I can not only use any models I want but can go from store to store and know the rules will be consistant.

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 09/10/2006 8:35 PM
honestly I'd rather see something like a d20 for miniatures or a GURPS for miniatures. Something with a publisher and editor and author(s). That way I can not only use any models I want but can go from store to store and know the rules will be consistant.

The trick is getting people to play it.  How many people are going to buy a set of rules for "Brand X" 40K?  Isn't that where Aetherverse failed? (in the sense of catching on/being a commerical success).  We tried Aetherverse among my local club.  Everyone liked it, but most people were waiting for critical mass before buying a copy.

On the other hand, if I could hand out "DakkaDakka 2006 Rules" as Free PDFs with guys knowing they play with the "Omega Soldiers" armylist, I think I might get a little more interest. 

Posted By widderslainte on 09/11/2006 9:14 AM

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 09/10/2006 8:35 PM
honestly I'd rather see something like a d20 for miniatures or a GURPS for miniatures. Something with a publisher and editor and author(s). That way I can not only use any models I want but can go from store to store and know the rules will be consistant.

The trick is getting people to play it.  How many people are going to buy a set of rules for "Brand X" 40K?  Isn't that where Aetherverse failed? (in the sense of catching on/being a commerical success).  We tried Aetherverse among my local club.  Everyone liked it, but most people were waiting for critical mass before buying a copy.

On the other hand, if I could hand out "DakkaDakka 2006 Rules" as Free PDFs with guys knowing they play with the "Omega Soldiers" armylist, I think I might get a little more interest. 

You're right. "Brand X" 40K is a hard sell to people that buy 40K because it's "Not Official" and a hard sell to non-40K players because they don't like 40K. I started writing a set of rules as described above and could only get very few people to even take the time to read them and even fewer to try a game or two.

However, when I removed the Sci-Fi elements and made the rules generic enough to cover WWII up to Modern, I now have some interest. I recently ran a game at this year's DragonCon in order to playtest turn sequence in a large game. We set-up a game using a table 4' x 52' with a road running down the length of the table and an Iraqi village halfway down the table. The scenario was to move a U.S. convoy of vehicles the length of the table (through the village). There were four factions and 2 players per faction. U.S. Forces, UN Forces, Shia Militia and Sunni Insurgents. We had a great time playing this game and I will be running it again at Hurricon in Orlando on Sep 22nd.

Based on my experience, I will continue to work on the generic system and then add a Sci-Fi Supplement that allows the use of 40K figures once the game has acceptance.

Oh...BTW, an Action-Based by Unit turn sequence works very well in a two player game, but is too cumbersome for more than two players based on my testing...

Posted By widderslainte on 09/11/2006 9:14 AM

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 09/10/2006 8:35 PM
honestly I'd rather see something like a d20 for miniatures or a GURPS for miniatures. Something with a publisher and editor and author(s). That way I can not only use any models I want but can go from store to store and know the rules will be consistant.

The trick is getting people to play it.  How many people are going to buy a set of rules for "Brand X" 40K?  Isn't that where Aetherverse failed? (in the sense of catching on/being a commerical success).  We tried Aetherverse among my local club.  Everyone liked it, but most people were waiting for critical mass before buying a copy.

On the other hand, if I could hand out "DakkaDakka 2006 Rules" as Free PDFs with guys knowing they play with the "Omega Soldiers" armylist, I think I might get a little more interest. 

This is where marketing comes in.  It would have to be a major game launch, WoC, maybe Steve jackson Games could pull it off but not a semi-pro writer. 

Anyone try Combat Zone? How's those rules?