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Greets all- apologies if this has been covered.

Got the GTs coming up next month and I'd like to make sure on a certain point.

I was under the impression the DC (being led by a chaplain) are a scoring unit.

I came to this conclusion using the detailing of  claimable squads near the end of the rulebook.

The DC et al did not fall under IC so it defaulted (in my mind) to "other non vehicle squads".

However, I was told by a fellow BA friend the following:

"according to p85 of the BGB. It also clarifies that all ICs are non-scoring "regardless of his unit type". So Chaplains and DC, Librarians with HG, SHP with HG, they're all non-scoring."


Now, this seems to be a bit much, because it has serious complications with ANY retinue? Not so?

Also- if this is the case say for arguments sake the Chappy and DC cant claim - what about a DC without a Chaplain...like 2 men.  (Now, i cant remember if the BA codex states that they cannot hold objectives without) But, if it doesnt state that- then whats preventing them holding?

Your help and burningly bright logic is requested.

Ask your friend if the DC is considered an "IC"? If so, then tell him he can't fire at the CD unless it is the closest unit and the DC can join other units, etc.

The fact is, the Chaplain is the IC and the DC is a non-vehicle unit. The Page 85 rule is essentially there to make sure that Monstrous Creature ICs give up 1/2 VPs if they're wounded at all (as opposed to having to lose more than half their wounds like normal MCs).

The DC is a scoring unit worth '0' VPs because there is simply no other logical solution.

The ba codex does not say they cant hold objectives so they can hold objectives. however the problem is what are they worth?/ the BA codex does not give them a points valua unless you count the extra 100 or so points the BA chaplian costs more than the standard chaplain. If you have no chaplain then its even harder as the DC have no points valua. Therefore it would be ok to say if an objective was worth 300 points and the DC held it you would get 300 points. if the objective was worth as many points as the unirt holding it then you are in trouble as the DC are not worth any points.

No, I'd say they aren't scoring, they don't technically cost any points. My understanding is that a DC is worth no victory points, if that is the case, all other models that are 50% or below on the VP table count as non scoring. So, no VP means No score, (means they can't hold objectives either). As much as it falls under the "other non-vehicle units), I would suspect that because the DC doesn't have a VP value that it does not count for scoring.

Additionally, retinues and so forth are simple, as they count as a unit, Much like a command squad retinue for a Master. The master doesn't count for holding, HOWEVER, the command squad surely counts for VP and holding.

yeah you would get the VP for the command squad or retinue only not the IC

Would anyone else like to get this or at least tell me where im wrong?

My understanding is this:

VP has nothing to do with whether a unit counts as claiming or not.
Yes, you're half right with regards to is not being able to score points for certain missions.

But, you've added a restriction that is not present. You've said that BECAUSE it counts as no VP it cannot claim - which is not nearly suggested by any reading/interpretation of the rules.

Lemme know where im going wrong.

Because sometimes the mission objectives say something like "scoring units within x" of the objective gain bonus VPs equal to their cost."

Since a Death Company is free, although it is a scoring unit, it gains 0 bonus VPs.

Centurian - we all know that ^_ ^. Its not being debated - we're debating whether they count as a scoring unit/claiming unit (in the case of something like cleanse) at all.

OR table quarters and stuff like that. My argument is that in the charts ANYTHING that is counted at half points no longer is scoring. Anything worth ZERO points is certainly not scoring. So, it is important for missions like cleanse to figure this out. Not so important for Recon, No VP so....no worry, additionally not so useful for take and hold because they do count as being able to hold an objective.

Oh well

ATI: re-read the table. If a unit of Death Company starts with 10 models and ends the game with 8, then by reading the table they:
- Count as a scoring unit.
- Yield no VPs to their opponent.

If the DC squad was taken down to 4 models, they:
- Are no longer scoring.
- Yield 50% of their VP value to their opponent (which is 0pts).

The rules always state that you count the unit's models (or wounds, in units with multi-wound models) for determining whether the unit is a scoring unit or not. It does not say you count how many VPs it is worth.

In short: the DC is certainly a scoring unit.

Hmm.  Then I've been playing them wrong all this time (about 8 years).

I always played them as a scoring unit (they are a 'unit' after all, with their own section in the codex, and are fielded as a 'unit' on the field).  I agree with the above posters that their 'cost' has *zero* to do with their ability to claim table quarters or hold objectives.

I always played their VPs as being the total cost of the Chaplain.  If the entire unit was dropped below 50%, it gave up 50% of the Chaplain's points.  If it was destroyed, incl Chaplain, 100% of the Chaplain's points.  I guess that was incorrect.

So, to meander a bit, the other way to treat is would be this:  the Chaplain has a basic cost, like all Chaplains.  That remains his VP total.  Take the 120 points (or whatever it is, I don't have the book handy)  that the DC is 'bought' with, and count that as the VPs for the actual DC models.  And, by the way, the DC aren't free - you pay 120 points for the starting unit. 

Then, if the Unit is dropped below 50%, take 50% of the 120 point 'unit cost'.  The Chaplain doesn't give up his points until he is killed, like any other IC and retinue - may not be necessarily RAW, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. 

Regardless of the above, the DC is a scoring unit, and can hold objectives.  

Posted By Cheexsta on 09/15/2006 12:11 AM
ATI: re-read the table. If a unit of Death Company starts with 10 models and ends the game with 8, then by reading the table they:
- Count as a scoring unit.
- Yield no VPs to their opponent.

If the DC squad was taken down to 4 models, they:
- Are no longer scoring.
- Yield 50% of their VP value to their opponent (which is 0pts).

The rules always state that you count the unit's models (or wounds, in units with multi-wound models) for determining whether the unit is a scoring unit or not. It does not say you count how many VPs it is worth.

In short: the DC is certainly a scoring unit.

Agree 100% with this.

Notice that if the unit's VP total is used to determine an objective (such as being inside the enemy's DZ at the end of the game, or to see who has more VPs closer to an objective in order to claim said objective), then them not being worth any VPs would 'kick in'.  So, they might be in the enemy's DZ at the end of the game, satisfying that objective, but end up yielding 0 extra VPs because that's their starting VP score.

If taking an objective is independant of a unit's VP score (such as when claiming quarters in a standard cleanse game), then they function like any other unit (may cap if not under 1/2).

OKay, okay, that makes sense, I'm willing to go that way. Although there are some that play it the DC is worth the Chaplain's VPs. Thats one I don't know what to do with.

in missions where you get a fixed amount of point for holding a table or edge or something then the DC would get those points. in some missions the opponents board edge is worth 750 ( in 1500pt games) the others are wport 375 each an your own is worth nothing to you. in games like that they ca n get points for table edges.

As far as it is, the "unit cost" is added to the chaplain, right? Therefore, the only way to get any of those points is to hurt or kill the chaplain. The Death Company are a 0-point unit (although they are drawn from other squads), and count as scoring. Imposing artificial restrictions on yourself for the sake of (I'm not sure) is just crippling what is otherwise a very good unit for the BA (and one of the few advantages IMHO).

Not flaming you, just saying that by RAW (which I saw you acknowlegded), the DC are scoring with no VP's to those that kill them. I'm sure opponents won't mind getting VP's by your method, but I would politely refuse to take the VP's if I played ya. (I once played BA). It's almost like the time I had tro convince another BA player that the DC have 3 attacks with a BP/CCW since they have 2 base: came down to pointing out that thye had 2 with a bolter, so 3 with BP/CCW. Ack, i'm meandering now.

So, your idea is definatley not in the rules, at least by the wonderful RAW nor is it FAQ'd. However, do what makes ytou and your opponent happy.

you kill my dc you dont get no vp points. kill the chaplain and you get all the points, but dont try stopping me from holding a table qurter with them as i will get a case of the black rage.